Sportsmanship Alert - My Most Recent Sighting

JAMSGOLF

Golf & Pool-I'm addicted!
Silver Member
I started putting on Saturday afternoon 9-ball tournaments at my place a little while back. Nothing big, mind you. There's a $10 entry with 100% payout going back to the field. All matches are a race to 5 with no losers bracket.

One of the players, Mattie (we'll call him Mattie...because that's his name!), is a pretty good shot. He's 19 or 20 years old (I know he's not 21 because he can't drink here yet!). He's ranked as a "4" in the APA, but there has to be something going on with his ranking, because he's a strong "5" on his okay days! He thinks I'm better than he is (I'm an APA "6")...and I keep him thinking that because I always tell him, "You're about the only one who makes me nervous shooting a money game..." Little does he know, I'm not kidding. If this kid could devote the time, he'd be phenomenal (and yes, I've told him that time after time). When he's on, he's a strong "6"...but he's not always on, so maybe that's why he's a "4".

Anyway, Mattie got paired up against a middle-aged gentleman I hadn't seen before (one of those friend of a friend types who heard about the tournament and showed up - so we'll call him Bob...we'll call him Bob because I can't remember his name...). Well, I could tell this other guy had spent most of his pool playing life as an 8-ball bar shooter, but not that bad of a shot really. He wasn't too familiar with 9-ball rules and he spent as much time bullshi**ing during his turn at the table as he did shooting.

I'm running around making sure everyone has what they need while they're playing and trying to watch as much of the action as possible. I happened to be standing near their table when I saw "Bob" setting up for his shot. At which point Mattie said, "Bob, your shooting the 4. The 3 is still on the table."

"Hmmm," I said to myself..."very impressive sportsmanship Mattie". So, I go along my way still thinking about that one. I think that match was 3 & 1 in Mattie's favor. Mattie ends up taking the game. Now it's 4 & 1. Final game. Mattie breaks and a few turns at the table later, I happen to overhear something else happening. Mattie had played a good safety and Bob, who was seemingly more interested in talking than playing, thought that a foul had occurred. So, he picked up the cueball thinking it was ball-in-hand. It wasn't. Mattie could have accepted that foul and ended the match then and there. Instead, Mattie, very nicely said, "Just put it back as close to where it was and go ahead and shoot." WOW!

Mattie went on to take second place in that tournament. The final match came down to a 4 & 4 tie to get to the last game in the match...so the tournament could have gone either way. Don't tell anyone I was pulling for Mattie...

I pulled Mattie aside a few days later and told him I was proud of what he did. I told him to me, he had maturity beyond his years...and that he should hold his head up high for being a "true sportsman"...and I believe that 100%!!!

Jason
 
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A beautiful thing...

It's absolutely great when you see or hear about someone displaying such good personality traits in this day and age. Best of luck to you with the tournaments, but more importantly...best of luck in life and the game to Mattie! Well done sir, don't ever change! :thumbup:
 
Hes equally lucky to have someone like yourself keeping him on track, instead of someone teaching him he's a loser for not snatching the cheese.
Sounds to me like he'd rather earn it.
 
That's good to hear. Regardless of how good a pool player he becomes he will have a good life with those values.
 
Always let the donaters get away with fouls when you know you will Win regardless. Keep em coming back to donate again every week.

No brainer to me but lost on so many. Let's see Mattie do the same at hill hill in the final.
 
Jason - great read! What a wonderful young man Mattie must be! Didn't know about the tournaments. Send me a PM with the details - I need to come visit! - Best, John
 
Forgive me for playing devil's advocate, but I think other things should be looked at to determine the strength of a person's character. Telling a guy that he was shooting the wrong ball has nothing to do with being a good person. You could run into a guy with 10 times the moral fiber, and maybe he wouldn't tell this guy he was shooting the wrong ball -- but you could not in any way hold that against him. I do see your point, and i'm sure he's a great kid, and I wish him luck. I just disagree with this barometer.
 
Thanks for the post. I enjoyed your story. I like to think there are millions of Matties out there, but I've yet to meet them. I'm happy to hear you praised him for his actions. Says good things about you, also! :thumbup:

Best,
Mike
 
Forgive me for playing devil's advocate, but I think other things should be looked at to determine the strength of a person's character. Telling a guy that he was shooting the wrong ball has nothing to do with being a good person. You could run into a guy with 10 times the moral fiber, and maybe he wouldn't tell this guy he was shooting the wrong ball -- but you could not in any way hold that against him. I do see your point, and i'm sure he's a great kid, and I wish him luck. I just disagree with this barometer.

Sure you could hold it against him. Of course a person can says "rules are rules" and they would be right. But that doesn't mean that they are sporting by taking advantage of ignorance and inexperience to win meaningless matches. That's what sportsmanship is.

In order to become good you need to be competitive. In order to enjoy it you need to have good sportsmanship. In my opinion.
 
Sure you could hold it against him. Of course a person can says "rules are rules" and they would be right. But that doesn't mean that they are sporting by taking advantage of ignorance and inexperience to win meaningless matches. That's what sportsmanship is.

In order to become good you need to be competitive. In order to enjoy it you need to have good sportsmanship. In my opinion.

Let's just say for the sake of argument that the kid was playing to try and win so he could help pay for his kid brother's cleft palate operation. So, if he said nothing, you'd hold that against him. Ok, that is your right, but you have NO idea what is going on in people's heads. I judge character by loyalty and in this case, how quiet an opponent is and how is general demeanor is around the table (sharking vs not, sporty vs not etc)... not whether he follows actual pool rules to a T or not -- ie, in this case following the rules = he has poor character.

So, in summary, we can say you'd judge not knowing a single thing about the boy's motivations, and I would not. Ok, fair enough. :)
 
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Sure you could hold it against him. Of course a person can says "rules are rules" and they would be right. But that doesn't mean that they are sporting by taking advantage of ignorance and inexperience to win meaningless matches. That's what sportsmanship is.

In order to become good you need to be competitive. In order to enjoy it you need to have good sportsmanship. In my opinion.

Bravo, wish I could have put it in words like that.

In that, peoples responses to the small things in life are a very good barometer.
If you can't be trusted with the small things in life, you have no business being trusted with the larger ones. JMHO
 
Let's just say for the sake of argument that the kid was playing to try and win so he could help pay for his kid brother's cleft palate operation. So, if he said nothing, you'd hold that against him. Ok, that is your right, but you have NO idea what is going on in people's heads. I judge character by loyalty and in this case, how quiet an opponent is and how is general demeanor is at the table... not whether he follows actual pool rules to a T or not -- ie, in this case following the rules = he has poor character.

So, in summary, we can say you'd judge not knowing a single thing about the boy's motivations, and I would not. Ok, fair enough. :)

Sure. In that case the kid would be ultra-competitive and driven to win using any edge he could get. Thus the situation reduces the desire to give a "sporting chance" and increases the desire to crush the opposition.

So after seeing him club the baby seal I'd say well that wasn't very sporting but he will eat well tonight.

One can only judge in most cases the actions taken not the motivation for them. In this case the young man displayed fine sportsmanship by allowing his ignorant and inexperienced opponent to learn the lesson graciously rather than sharply. Perhaps next time he will expect the opponent to know better and so the same mistakes will not be forgiven. Has nothing to do with outside motivation.

When one has more information then one can take that into account in forming a judgement. Otherwise one works with the information one has.

Instead of using your words "following the rules = poor character" I prefer to think of it another way. Which is following the rules when the outcome doesn't matter makes one normal and allowing mistakes to go unpunished when it doesn't matter makes one nicer.
 
Always let the donaters get away with fouls when you know you will Win regardless. Keep em coming back to donate again every week.

No brainer to me but lost on so many. Let's see Mattie do the same at hill hill in the final.

This is the reason people hate pool players. you cant't just see the good in it, you have to think "owe will her do it hill=hill". just just the guy the credit he deserves and move on.

I have done it gambling, it's about being a good human and not a POS nit.

I don't care it its a donator or a strong player, I treat people like they treat me, PERIOD.
 
Sure. In that case the kid would be ultra-competitive and driven to win using any edge he could get. Thus the situation reduces the desire to give a "sporting chance" and increases the desire to crush the opposition.

So after seeing him club the baby seal I'd say well that wasn't very sporting but he will eat well tonight.

One can only judge in most cases the actions taken not the motivation for them. In this case the young man displayed fine sportsmanship by allowing his ignorant and inexperienced opponent to learn the lesson graciously rather than sharply. Perhaps next time he will expect the opponent to know better and so the same mistakes will not be forgiven. Has nothing to do with outside motivation.

When one has more information then one can take that into account in forming a judgement. Otherwise one works with the information one has.

Instead of using your words "following the rules = poor character" I prefer to think of it another way. Which is following the rules when the outcome doesn't matter makes one normal and allowing mistakes to go unpunished when it doesn't matter makes one nicer.

To make it all very clear, you used the words "you could hold it against him" if he did not give the player a heads up. You are in the wrong when you assume things about people and judge their actions when, in this case, they are playing in accordance with the rules. There are really any number of things to be said here, maybe he thinks it would be rude to interrupt his opponent's shot, and/or he's shy. Maybe a backer put him in the tournament. Hold it against him would you? I guess so; you said it. And what do you think our hero Efren would do in this situation if there were something on the line for him.

The point here really is, for me, there are much more "solid" aspects of a person's behavior to go on than whether or not he coaches his opponent. In short, bravo to the kid, but don't hold it against people that don't coach their opponent in the middle of a competition. Judge their sportsmanship, or lack thereof, on other aspects of their behavior.
 
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This is the reason people hate pool players. you cant't just see the good in it, you have to think "owe will her do it hill=hill". just just the guy the credit he deserves and move on.

I have done it gambling, it's about being a good human and not a POS nit.

I don't care it its a donator or a strong player, I treat people like they treat me, PERIOD.

I'm sorry I don't have the decoder ring to decipher this.
 
To make it all very clear, you used the words "you could hold it against him" if he did not give the player a heads up. You are in the wrong when you assume things about people and judge their actions when, in this case, they are playing in accordance with the rules. There are really any number of things to be said here, maybe he thinks it would be rude to interrupt his opponent's shot, and/or he's shy. Maybe a backer put him in the tournament. Hold it against him would you? I guess so; you said it. And what do you think our hero Efren would do in this situation if there were something on the line for him.

The point here really is, for me, there are much more "solid" aspects of a person's behavior to go on than whether or not he coaches his opponent. In short, bravo to the kid, but don't hold it against people that don't coach their opponent in the middle of a competition. Judge their sportsmanship, or lack thereof, on other aspects of their behavior.

"Hold it against him" has many connotations. For example if I were an observer and the kid had been a stickler for the rules when he didn't have to be then I might decide that I was going to be one too when we played and call any infraction just because I didn't like what I saw him do. On the other hand if I saw him be kind when he didn't have to then I might play a more relaxed game and if the opportunity came up to be kind to him then I might do so. As in if he was mistakenly going to shoot the wrong ball and I stopped him.

No matter how you slice it an act of unnecessary kindness in a competition is an example of good sportsmanship. The point I made is that depending on the situation someone who decided to punish rather than forgive could be seen as a bad sport and have it held against them. Whether it SHOULD be or not is another topic. In some cases I would definitely hold it against someone for being jerky about the rules and in other cases I would say that they did the "right" thing by being a stickler about the rules.
 
Forgive me for playing devil's advocate, but I think other things should be looked at to determine the strength of a person's character. Telling a guy that he was shooting the wrong ball has nothing to do with being a good person. You could run into a guy with 10 times the moral fiber, and maybe he wouldn't tell this guy he was shooting the wrong ball -- but you could not in any way hold that against him. I do see your point, and i'm sure he's a great kid, and I wish him luck. I just disagree with this barometer.

The point of the thread was regarding Mattie's good sportsmanship.

Usually, people who exhibit "good sportsmanship" are very likely to be a "good person".

The thread wasn't about discussing people who won't tell their opponent they are shooting the wrong ball, and whether or not they are truly good sports or good people. That is a different discussion.

In my eyes, people who display good sportsmanship are very likely to be a "good person". Mattie clearly is a good sport, and a good sportsman.

He is to be congratulated, displaying that level of sportsmanship (and maturity) and a young age is truly encouraging.
 
The point of the thread was regarding Mattie's good sportsmanship.

Usually, people who exhibit "good sportsmanship" are very likely to be a "good person".

The thread wasn't about discussing people who won't tell their opponent they are shooting the wrong ball, and whether or not they are truly good sports or good people. That is a different discussion.

In my eyes, people who display good sportsmanship are very likely to be a "good person". Mattie clearly is a good sport, and a good sportsman.

He is to be congratulated, displaying that level of sportsmanship (and maturity) and a young age is truly encouraging.

Yes, I agree :) Forgive if my posts are too negative. I think Mattie is great too. I just wanted to point out that I see a very counterintitive aspect to us pool players as a bunch. We admire winners, all of us (Efren, Schmidt, Sigel etc), yet we scoff at the very attitudes that makes somebody a winner. As somebody pointed out: "you could hold it against a player for not informing your opponent of a potential foul (paraphrased)." I don't believe that.

Winners in pool get there because they know even giving an inch at times comes back to haunt them. That's why Efren would not have done this, he's been hurt by stuff like this before. I just think we should look at this action as a sort of neutral thing, if you coach somebody and you don't have to, you're not a hero. Day in and day out conducting yourself like an Efren (for example) is what makes a good sportsman in my estimation.

I guess the reason I don't like the thinking here is there is almost always a negative on the other side of a positive. In other words, players that don't coach a guy like this are bad guys, and as said, people may hold something against them. That's not right in my estimation.
 
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Yes, I agree :) Forgive if my posts are too negative. I think Mattie is great too. I just wanted to point out that I see a very counterintitive aspect to us pool players as a bunch. We admire winners, all of us (Efren, Schmidt, Sigel etc), yet we scoff at the very attitudes that makes somebody a winner. As somebody pointed out: "you could hold it against a player for not informing your opponent of a potential foul (paraphrased)." I don't believe that.

Winners in pool get there because they know even giving an inch at times comes back to haunt them. That's why Efren would not have done this, he's been hurt by stuff like this before. I just think we should look at this action as a sort of neutral thing, if you coach somebody and you don't have to, you're not a hero. Day in and day out conducting yourself like an Efren (for example) is what makes a good sportsman in my estimation.

I guess the reason I don't like the thinking here is there is almost always a negative on the other side of a positive. In other words, players that don't coach a guy like this are bad guys, and as said, people may hold something against them. That's not right in my estimation.
With all respect, I think you're lacking a little perspective. There's a big difference between a local $10-entry-fee tournament and the US 9-ball Open.
 
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