Squirt/Deflection On This Shot

Egg McDogit said:
I think it's funny that people are ragging on dcp when they aren't even playing the shot right themselves lol
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excellent point Egg McDogit!

also, not sure who the one poster was, but someone mentioned that i might be elevating my cue just slightly, and causing swerve with the downward stroke. i'll have to check on that.

as far as my being DrCue'sProtege, i believe if you ask Mr. Rossman about me he would say that i am a student of the game, and have done everything possible to improve myself since i took the game up several years ago. if anybody ever runs across Tom ask him about his former student from Loogootee, IN and if he is serious about the game.

the "Dave" gentleman that used to come down and play with me, the BCA 8 Ball Champion, was Tom's roommate in college.

and to those that say i should contact Tom about these questions, perhaps you arent aware that he does not give individual lessons anymore. and considering that he is on the road nearly 300 days out of the year, including overseas, i dont really wish to bother him.

and i have received at least three (3) PMs from posters thanking me for posting shots, and that they usually generate good discussions and that they learn something each and every time on every shot i post. i might recommend to you posters that continually want to be mean, rude, and stupid to just politely refrain from the insults, this is not what this Forum is for.

regards,
DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
... but someone mentioned that i might be elevating my cue just slightly, and causing swerve with the downward stroke. i'll have to check on that.
...
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DCP, as has been pointed out many times in several forums, all players elevate their cues on 99.9% of all the shots they shoot. It is impossible to put either draw or center ball on the shot you illustrated without elevating the cue stick.

Considering how many times "universal elevation" has been pointed out, it's startling how many players are still unaware of it.

And on the shot illustrated, you are guaranteed to be elevating your cue stick much more than "just slightly."
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
as far as my being DrCue'sProtege, i believe if you ask Mr. Rossman about me he would say that i am a student of the game, and have done everything possible to improve myself since i took the game up several years ago. if anybody ever runs across Tom ask him about his former student from Loogootee, IN and if he is serious about the game.
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I apologize for coming across so harsh. But, you have to see it from our point of view. The term "protegé" has a distinct meaning. When you ask the questions and present yourself as his protegé, and the question doesn't match up with the image of a protegé, then I think it's fair game to question you.

and to those that say i should contact Tom about these questions, perhaps you arent aware that he does not give individual lessons anymore. and considering that he is on the road nearly 300 days out of the year, including overseas,
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And again, look at it from our point of view. You are Dr. Cue's Protegé but he doesn't give individual lessons? All this time, I thought you were getting private lessons from Tom. I'd say I was misled.

That being said, your questions are good ones.

Fred
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
excellent point Egg McDogit!

also, not sure who the one poster was, but someone mentioned that i might be elevating my cue just slightly, and causing swerve with the downward stroke. i'll have to check on that.

as far as my being DrCue'sProtege, i believe if you ask Mr. Rossman about me he would say that i am a student of the game, and have done everything possible to improve myself since i took the game up several years ago. if anybody ever runs across Tom ask him about his former student from Loogootee, IN and if he is serious about the game.

the "Dave" gentleman that used to come down and play with me, the BCA 8 Ball Champion, was Tom's roommate in college.

and to those that say i should contact Tom about these questions, perhaps you arent aware that he does not give individual lessons anymore. and considering that he is on the road nearly 300 days out of the year, including overseas, i dont really wish to bother him.

and i have received at least three (3) PMs from posters thanking me for posting shots, and that they usually generate good discussions and that they learn something each and every time on every shot i post. i might recommend to you posters that continually want to be mean, rude, and stupid to just politely refrain from the insults, this is not what this Forum is for.

regards,
DCP
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Don't sweat the negative posters... I would be willing to bet that alot of posters miss this exact shot, but just don't have the desire or guts you have to step up and ask about it.

In my opinion this that even though this shot is farily routine, it happens to be more of a touchy shot than it appears at first glance.....Look at all the things that can go wrong...Hooked / Scratch / Too steep. etc...

My question to you is...Have you anyalyzed "how" your misses look??? Are you too thick? too thin??? More than likely you will tend to miss the ball the same way....Also look at where the CB is ending after the shot...."same place" or "different?

I think you will find that even champions will tend to miss this shot one way or another...The difference is they have figured out what there "tendancy" is under pressure and err toward the other way to make sure they make the shot...

Now if your missing it both ways....the first thing you will need to do is practice until you have established a pattern...then you can fix it...

Until you have a pattern...it's probably not fixable...JMO
 
BTW - Even though the post is specific for a draw back.

Depending on the rest of the layout, I would probably opt to play for the other side and shoot the ball down in the lower left corner. (especailly on a bar table)

I have much less chance of a miss hit scratch in the lower right corner then I would scratching in the side trying to make sure I get past the 8-ball...

That is all just shot preference though...
 
sorry, i didnt realize people actually took people's nicknames on this Forum as serious indicators of who or what they might be??? i thought this website was just meant for fun and information, and not a literal interpretation of who or what someone might be.

for the record, Tom Rossman's wife's family lives about 20 miles north of me. they would visit her family around Christmas every year. Tom came to my place and gave me lessons on the following dates:
December 26, 1998
December 26, 1999
December 26, 2000
December 26, 2001
December 26, 2002 (unfortunately, his last as he decided not to give individual lessons anymore)
December 26, 2003 - visited to play and check out my Gold Crown IV.

DCP
 
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Cornerman said:
I apologize for coming across so harsh. But, you have to see it from our point of view. The term "protegé" has a distinct meaning. When you ask the questions and present yourself as his protegé, and the question doesn't match up with the image of a protegé, then I think it's fair game to question you.

And again, look at it from our point of view. You are Dr. Cue's Protegé but he doesn't give individual lessons? All this time, I thought you were getting private lessons from Tom. I'd say I was misled.

That being said, your questions are good ones.

Fred
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This is exactally what I assumed also Fred. Well, you know what they say about assumptions.

I thought it was coming from someone who was actively associated with Dr. Cue. Now that it's been cleared up, I also apologize if sounded harsh.

Keep postin them shots DRCP, I am sure that it is helping others who are not saying.
 
now, please, lets talk about this shot only, ok? i know there are other ways to get position on the '4', but lets assume this shot is the only alternative.

anybody have any tips on how to control the rock on this shot?

DCP

[/WEI][/QUOTE]

This is really a great question, one that many players overlook for years. There have been several good replys to your post such as:
Are you elevating the cue?
You need to practice this shot.

Just to add a little:
1. Different cues have different ratios of deflection---So practice this shot with the same cue.
2. Chalk your cue before each shot.
3. Keep the cue at the same elevation.
4. To practice
Set this shot up the exact way each time.
Shoot it and aim exactly the same way each time---even if you miss,
do not change your aim. You want to find a consistent pattern.
Shoot it 10 times hard, 10 time medium, and 10 times easy.
5. Examine the patterns and let us know what your finding are.
 
Interesting point, one which I am not always concscious of either.

I wonder if 3 cushion would help DCP. I remember when someone walked me to a 3 cushion table and taught me the oh-so basics of 3-cushion. I had been playing pool seriously about two years so I knew all the basics of cue control, english, speed, etc etc etc.

But he looks at me and he asks, "How come pool players always elevate the butt of the stick? And what's with the long bridge?"

In a game like 3C I was really forced to keep my cue as level as possible, and it was constantly pointed out to me when I wasn't. This made me a lot more conscious of not only the cue, but why I would mess up shots (both in 3C and in pocket billiards).

Bob Jewett said:
DCP, as has been pointed out many times in several forums, all players elevate their cues on 99.9% of all the shots they shoot. It is impossible to put either draw or center ball on the shot you illustrated without elevating the cue stick.

Considering how many times "universal elevation" has been pointed out, it's startling how many players are still unaware of it.

And on the shot illustrated, you are guaranteed to be elevating your cue stick much more than "just slightly."
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thunup1@yahoo.c said:
why not reinforcements? they are made removeable now.
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3 ring binder hole reinforcement stickers are the next best thing to placing an x on the table with blackboard chalk.

I prefer the x with chalk because the hole reinforcements have a little crater the ball sits in.
 
As to asking questions on this forum...

I have always been one to ask questions if I don't understand something. I will do this in a room full of people and be the only person asking about something.

It NEVER fails! Everytime I do this, someone will come up to me later and thank me for asking the question. They say they did not understand it either, but did not ask because they thought everyone would laugh at them.

I could care less if everyone laughs at me or not. I am in that room to learn, paying money to learn, and I'm going to learn all I can.

Same thing here. I'm here to learn, so ask away. You're probably asking a question about something someone else would like to know about.
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
sorry, i didnt realize people actually took people's nicknames on this Forum as serious indicators of who or what they might be??? i thought this website was just meant for fun and information, and not a literal interpretation of who or what someone might be.
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People are reading too much into people's screen names. "Protege" does not mean prodigy.

A "protege" is a person who is being trained in some specialty (in this case, pool) by a mentor.
 
I don't think people are getting the terms confused at all.

5 lessons hardly constitutes a protege.

And, 5 lessons over FIVE yes 5 years CMON Oh, you are over for Christmas dinner, can you play with me for a few minutes so I can go and post to a board that I am your protege? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

Grady was looking for someone to pass his talents on to, do you think he would let the person he was with call themself a protege after 5 lessons.
 
Why even mess with Squirt or deflection? All you're doing is playing with unneccesary english and making things harder than need be. B's and C's use english they shouldn't be using and try to over compensate and screw things up. A players keep it simple...

That's a center ball shot all day long. Cut the ball with a firm center ball stroke, pocket the ball clean and the cue ball comes back naturally where you wanted it in the first place.

Your using english for a simple cut, and now you have altered the natural angle of the rock and have to adjust your cut to compensate for squirt....

Either learn the basics and practice them or give it up...

You could screw up a 2 car funeral persession...
 
This is a very commonly played shot by good players and needs to be practiced at various speeds, angles and amounts of english.

That said, swerve if the biggest variable here, and it can cause havoc on slow played shots, especially on heavier nap tables. The CB can swerve half a ball width if the CB and OB have a large separation.

BHE on this shot will almost always lead you to overcut unless you aim full or play the shot very firm, or with a bridge length longer than your pivot point to increase the squirt offset.

I often use BHE on this shot and aim to hit fuller than I would with a topspin shot. But the aim will have to vary with speed to account for swerve. This takes a lot of practice to develop a feel for where to begin your initial alignment.

My video here clearly shows how much Outside English can effect the throw angle for potting. Add swerve to the equation, and it's clear that BHE with OE almost always needs to align significantly fuller than for a rolling pot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-xtzn4vbiQ

btw: I don't see why people have to slam DCP for asking questions here. Simply playing by oneself instead of trying to get advice from experienced players is not a good idea. So long as he is practicing as well and reading, he will get the best of both worlds.

I did criticise DCP once a while back for his not making the effort to reply to suggestions or attribute feedback to the relevant authors that made the effort to help him, but he seems to be improving in this regard.

If you use the privelage to ask questions on the forum, it is common courteousy to make an effort to reply to those who give useful suggestions.

Colin
 
I watched Nick Varner lose to Efren Reyes today on ESPN Classic today. He missed this same shot. He hit it wide right. In the finals of the U.S. Open. I guess he can't play. (sarcasm)

You should come across to the near rail above the side on this if you have a choice. I practice a drill putting a ball about an inch off the rail one diamond above each side pocket. Then I start with the cueball near the footspot and shoot the first ball in crossing below the opposite side pocket and bouncing out toward the footspot again. Then I replace the first ball and shoot the second from where the cueball stopped, playing shape on the first the same way. I've gotten up to 40 something on my table. Ten in a row is pretty good, and will teach you to stroke the ball without curving it. I try to always play it two rails. It's the only drill I practice.

unknownpro
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
this type of shot is a problem for me. its one of the routine shots of the game that you need to master.

my problem is that when i shoot this shot with some low left to bring the cue ball back for position on the '4' Ball, sometimes the cue ball squirts, other times it doesnt, and i am therefore inconsistent here.

now, please, lets talk about this shot only, ok? i know there are other ways to get position on the '4', but lets assume this shot is the only alternative.

anybody have any tips on how to control the rock on this shot?

DCP

CueTable Help

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You are saying that sometimes it squirts and sometimes it doesn't. That's not the case. I guarantee you that you have a crooked and inconsistent stroke. If you can go straight thru the cueball, this shot will become extremely easy after practicing it for 15 minutes. I think that's the problem with your game entirely. You can't draw the cueball back 3 inches consistently when the object ball is a foot away, you can't get shape with this shot, you can't do this, you can't do that, etc. I think it's your stroke, and that you have a very weak mind that is causing you to have an erratic stroke. You need to mentally train yourself to trust your stroke, just let your arm swing thru the cueball without any muscles controlling it. If you miss the shot, adjust your ALIGNMENT, until you start making the shot, and you will learn from there. You have been playing pool for a long time, quite often, and from what you say, you are a C player at best. Work on your mental game and your stroke and you will probably stop getting so frustrated.
 
That shot is precisely why a predator shaft is so useful. The predator still deflects, but so much less that it makes compensating so much easier.

That shot comes up, in some variation, over and over again.

Because of the lower deflection, I've found the shot below to be much more difficult to make with a predator (as bow of curve is more shallow with the predator). While I can make this MUCH more often with a Schon. These aren't so bad when the object ball is closer to the pocket or you have even 5 degrees more angle to work with. You can get by with the Predator. I can't think of a practical situation where anyone would want to take such a low percentage sucker shot like this anyway. The high deflection shafts assist in other areas, like if you need to English around the edge of an impeding ball - it is easier with the Schon for example than with the Predator. You have to aim further around the ball, and count on swerve to get the cue ball back on target. Low deflection does have a few downsides.

CueTable Help




But then again, these don't really come up that often compared to the shot below, so the positives outweight the negatives.

CueTable Help




These style shots come up way more often, and compensating for deflection is absolutely a huge part of making the shot. Sorry for the bad WEI diagrams...I have a hard time getting my pointer on those tiny little arrows.
 
unknownpro said:
I watched Nick Varner lose to Efren Reyes today on ESPN Classic today. He missed this same shot. He hit it wide right. In the finals of the U.S. Open. I guess he can't play. (sarcasm)

You should come across to the near rail above the side on this if you have a choice. I practice a drill putting a ball about an inch off the rail one diamond above each side pocket. Then I start with the cueball near the footspot and shoot the first ball in crossing below the opposite side pocket and bouncing out toward the footspot again. Then I replace the first ball and shoot the second from where the cueball stopped, playing shape on the first the same way. I've gotten up to 40 something on my table. Ten in a row is pretty good, and will teach you to stroke the ball without curving it. I try to always play it two rails. It's the only drill I practice.

unknownpro
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Sounds like a very interesting and challenging drill. Not sure if I picture it correctly. Would you be able to post the shot on the WEI table?

Thanks!

Flex
 
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