Squirt. End Mass and Cue Flexibility.

[ENGLISH!]

Originally Posted by LAMas
-" The tip compresses before the CB moves."


.......

I'm puzzled by this statement. I hope you realize that if there has been force to compress the tip that same force has started cue ball movement. They must occur at the same time.

This is very, very basic physics.

My conclusion is that since the cue ball is just beginning its acceleration, the distance moved is small and the photography is not good enough to capture the small movement that has taken place
Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy


Here is an old high speed vid. The tip is being compressed a bit before the CB rotates or moves forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DceJZs2AJgQ

What do you see?

Nice Video, but...

it seems that all of these videos have the cue stick angled to achieve the off center hit.

I would be very interested in seeing one where the stick is parallel off center on the horizontal axis as that is more in line with what the conversation is about which is lateral movement of the ball & cue stick with gravity being perpendicular.

I'm just say'in.

Here is one that shows the 'recoil' of the stick that looks to me to rather clearly show the 'swipe' when the tip is still in contact with the ball when played at .25 speed & some pause play pause play.

https://youtu.be/d85tGgXOuYo

You Sir, Stay Well.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I wouldn't discount being able to feel a difference on the order of a millisecond. The human ear, even my ears that have been damaged from years of being a musician, can hear well into the kiloHertz. SOMETHING in your brain can certainly process information that quickly, and we also know that our hearing is quite sensitive to small delays between when a sound hits the individual ears....certainly under a millisecond.

Anyhow, I wouldn't just toss it out because it seems like you shouldn't be able to feel something that short. We routinely process at least some physical stimuli that quickly.

I'm on board with this line of thinking. We know far less about the human brain & subconscious mind than we do about the collision of a cue stick with a cue ball.

I think some want to assign 'feel' to a conscious level & in most cases I think it dwells in the subconscious mind & there is a small pathway from there to our conscious mind.
We even have a sense that many refer to as a gut feeling. When something just does not seem or feel 'right' or seems or feels dangerous. Many times that gut feeling is correct.

Best Wishes.
Rick

 

[Corwyn_8]

My conclusion from the video is that the initial motion of the cue ball is hard to see because it is accelerating from zero and since the force from the tip will be increasing more or less linearly, the velocity will be increasing as the second power and the displacement as the third power.

Anyone have a value (or range) for the spring constant of a cue tip?

Thank you kindly.

 

[john coloccia]

One thing we do know, though, is how fast signals get to and from the brain. That we can measure, and do it routinely. Anyone that's had carpal/cubital tunnel problems has done this lovely bit of testing... I think it's safe to say that you can't CONTROL anything that happens that quickly, and certainly not with your hands and arms. I'm not willing to claim that we can't perceive it, though.

To me, the feel of a hit is very important. It gives me feedback to constantly dial in my stroke on subsequent shots. That's one of the reasons I like harder tips. Without that feedback, I'm left guessing when my stroke isn't perfect.

 

[john coloccia]

Anyone have a value (or range) for the spring constant of a cue tip?

Thank you kindly.

Does it actually behave like a spring? That's what I meant when I said I had no idea how a leather tip behaves. I would assume that Young's modulus for leather is only constant for very small displacements, and it probably gets extremely messy when you take into account the shear forces too. Anyhow, I don't know this, but that would be my guess.

 

[ENGLISH!]

One thing we do know, though, is how fast signals get to and from the brain. That we can measure, and do it routinely. Anyone that's had carpal/cubital tunnel problems has done this lovely bit of testing... I think it's safe to say that you can't CONTROL anything that happens that quickly, and certainly not with your hands and arms. I'm not willing to claim that we can't perceive it, though.

To me, the feel of a hit is very important. It gives me feedback to constantly dial in my stroke on subsequent shots. That's one of the reasons I like harder tips. Without that feedback, I'm left guessing when my stroke isn't perfect.

Yes that's the argument that is put up when what others have said has been misinterpreted.

No one is saying or has said that one consciously feels something during contact & then makes a conscious decision to make a change & then get that implemented before contact is over.

Some say those things as a means of trying to belittle others.

However, I think one can certainly sense something wrong during a stroke & make a modification during the stroke that will affect contact.

What you say about feedback as a reference for future strokes is certainly applicable. That said some individuals have more recognition than others.

I like soft tips because I like feeling the ball on the end of the cue stick for as long as I can.

As I've said, I have a different mind set when hitting off center for the purpose & use of spin vs hitting off set for the purpose & use of the squirt.

I've felt & have seen the results of what I do differently based on those different mind sets.

We are bio-mechanical beings & not robotic machines.

Yes there is physics involved but there is also the human side that use that physics & that is where the art of playing the game comes.

It seems that some want to say that there is no art or athleticism involved. It's all just book science.

Each individual should make their own determinations & be responsible for their own games.

But... It's no real wonder why pro players do not post or stay posting here on AZB.

Best Wishes,
Rick

PS I'm off to Mardi Gras.

 

[Corwyn_8]

Does it actually behave like a spring? That's what I meant when I said I had no idea how a leather tip behaves. I would assume that Young's modulus for leather is only constant for very small displacements, and it probably gets extremely messy when you take into account the shear forces too. Anyhow, I don't know this, but that would be my guess.

To a first approximation, of course it does (bounce a cue off the floor, tip first, if there is any doubt). We can't begin to figure out second order effects until we know the values of the first order stuff. Hence my question.

Thank you kindly.

 

[HawaiianEye]

One thing we do know, though, is how fast signals get to and from the brain. That we can measure, and do it routinely. Anyone that's had carpal/cubital tunnel problems has done this lovely bit of testing... I think it's safe to say that you can't CONTROL anything that happens that quickly, and certainly not with your hands and arms. I'm not willing to claim that we can't perceive it, though.

To me, the feel of a hit is very important. It gives me feedback to constantly dial in my stroke on subsequent shots. That's one of the reasons I like harder tips. Without that feedback, I'm left guessing when my stroke isn't perfect.

I agree with you.

Here is a link concerning reflex times to stimuli. Do some people have "better" or "faster" reactions? I guess our scientists on here will tell us.

http://www.positivehealth.com/artic...-reactions-our-body-s-rapid-defence-mechanism

Our bodies are always resisting outside forces. Just walking down a step produces a force through our ankle, knee, and hip, which could cause injury if it were not for the ability of every muscle to assess the amount of tension being applied to it and act in a millisecond to resist that tension. Our muscles are always at the ready - willing and able to protect us from the certain injury that would otherwise accompany even such normal activities as walking, running, jumping, or sitting.

 

[Corwyn_8]

The human ear, even my ears that have been damaged from years of being a musician, can hear well into the kiloHertz. SOMETHING in your brain can certainly process information that quickly

Not necessarily. I can see green light, at 550 TERAhertz does that mean I can process information at that rate? Of course not.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Anyone have a value (or range) for the spring constant of a cue tip?

Thank you kindly.

The spring constant (but it's not Hooke's Law, it's Hertz' Law at work) can be found from the contact time and masses of the objects.

 

[Corwyn_8]

If you come to Hawaii, I'll be happy to converse with you all day about it,

Please don't tempt me. We just got another 7 inches of snow...

You asked me what I thought and I answered you.

No, I asked why you thought it, and you didn't answer me. But, no worries. Hopefully someone else who believes as you do will be able to communicate why they do.

Thank you kindly.

 

[john coloccia]

Not necessarily. I can see green light, at 550 TERAhertz does that mean I can process information at that rate? Of course not.

Thank you kindly.

That's completely different. You have different receptors in your eye that are sensitive to different wavelengths. Your brain doesn't get raw frequency information about individual photons, and it doesn't even make sense to consider that when it's still an open question what, exactly, is vibrating.

Hearing works completely different, and certainly the interaural delay mechanism works completely differently. Whether you actually process the information in real time, or somehow record it and process it later if it's important enough, also isn't significant. What's significant is there is the capacity to detect and process stimuli which occurs on the order of kiloHertz.

 

[Corwyn_8]

The spring constant (but it's not Hooke's Law, it's Hertz' Law at work) can be found from the contact time and masses of the objects.

Oh fine, make me do my own math...

Sadly, contact time is one of the disputed values in this discussion, and I was hoping we could work it in reverse.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I agree with you.

Here is a link concerning reflex times to stimuli. Do some people have "better" or "faster" reactions? I guess our scientists on here will tell us.

http://www.positivehealth.com/artic...-reactions-our-body-s-rapid-defence-mechanism

Our bodies are always resisting outside forces. Just walking down a step produces a force through our ankle, knee, and hip, which could cause injury if it were not for the ability of every muscle to assess the amount of tension being applied to it and act in a millisecond to resist that tension. Our muscles are always at the ready - willing and able to protect us from the certain injury that would otherwise accompany even such normal activities as walking, running, jumping, or sitting.

The article you pointed out is propaganda selling something. It is hardly accurate. Here's something for you to consider: the top speed of nerve impulses is said to be (in a scholarly article, not propaganda) about 8 milliseconds per meter. From that it's real tough to get to 1ms of reflex time if the reflex signal has to be processed in the spinal cord.

 

[Corwyn_8]

Hearing works completely different

I don't think it does. There is a mechanical structure in your ear (cochlea) which performs the Fourier transform BEFORE it gets to your brain. All your brain gets is a signal that the ear is hearing a 1 kilohertz signal.

And that leaves aside the question of whether you can detect the frequency of a single cycle (as opposed to recognizing the frequency of many such cycles).

Thank you kindly.

 

[HawaiianEye]

The article you pointed out is propaganda selling something. It is hardly accurate. Here's something for you to consider: the top speed of nerve impulses is said to be (in a scholarly article, not propaganda) about 8 milliseconds per meter. From that it's real tough to get to 1ms of reflex time if the reflex signal has to be processed in the spinal cord.

Do you love your wife, mom, or kids? That's propaganda from what somebody told me.

Prove you do.

Just because you like them a whole lot doesn't mean you love them.

Is religion right or are scientists right when it comes to the creation of the universe. Prove either one. Pick a side. I can find an equal number opposing whichever side you pick.

Like I said, some people "think" something and others don't.

If somebody sits in a corner talking to an "invisible" being, most people will call them crazy. Put 100 of them together in the same place and it is called "religion".

Believe what you want to believe.

Aloha

 

[Bob Jewett]

Do you love your wife, mom, or kids? That's propaganda from what somebody told me.
...

You need to put your hurt and anger aside if you want to see clearly.

 

[HawaiianEye]

You need to put your hurt and anger aside if you want to see clearly.

Are you now an eye doctor or Dr Phil?

I don't need improvement, I can still play at an ABOVE "A" level and I play only a few hours once a week. Maybe some other people on here need your help. Thanks for offering.

Aloha.

 

[john coloccia]

I don't think it does. There is a mechanical structure in your ear (cochlea) which performs the Fourier transform BEFORE it gets to your brain. All your brain gets is a signal that the ear is hearing a 1 kilohertz signal.

And that leaves aside the question of whether you can detect the frequency of a single cycle (as opposed to recognizing the frequency of many such cycles).

Thank you kindly.

Heavens, Corwyn. The point is that your body is capable of picking up things which happen on the order of <1ms, and interaural delay detection certainly does not depend on specialized hairs in your cochlea. If you want, we can talk about the exact mechanisms involved as it relates to our nervous system, but I don't see a point since I'm not the one claiming it definitely is or isn't detectable. As far as I'm concerned, it's unknown until someone demonstrates it one way or another.

We're all free to "know" whatever it is we wish to know, I suppose.

 

[HawaiianEye]

You need to put your hurt and anger aside if you want to see clearly.

Are you now an eye doctor? Or Dr Phil?

I can still play at an above "A" level and I only play a few hours once a week. Maybe you can spread your stuff to some people who need it more than me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FscIgtDJFXg