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Stan Shuffet Challenge
- Thread starter Outre Bron
- Start date
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Where have I maliciously slandered Stan? I don't believe in the system, that's all.
Lou Figueroa
You haven't been playing long enough to give any views on anything.
The way you write and treat people is actually making me sick.
BTW...leave this Sean guy alone before he makes you look like the poster boy for STUPID.:smile:
Are you saying nob is actually a noob?
Lou Figueroa
THAT would explain
soooo much
I don't really understand what he is talking about and he is on about all the top pros etc use it? I think stevie moore is the only one and he is not exactly setting the world alight with his playing.
Schmidt and corey on tar both say systems are bogus, they basically help a beginner understand the alignment of a shot but once you get good at the game you can line up the shot yourself
efren, varner archer Strickland busty, mika, Strickland etc etc
Stephen Hendry Ronnie o Sullivan judd trump john Higgins ding jui et etc
these world champions do just fine without it. its like the cyclop balls and red dot in my opinion, money making scheme
Schmidt and corey on tar both say systems are bogus, they basically help a beginner understand the alignment of a shot but once you get good at the game you can line up the shot yourself
efren, varner archer Strickland busty, mika, Strickland etc etc
Stephen Hendry Ronnie o Sullivan judd trump john Higgins ding jui et etc
these world champions do just fine without it. its like the cyclop balls and red dot in my opinion, money making scheme
those were the days.. lol
He is saying that he didn't want to give me any weight and play for a reasonable wager. Aside from that, he's just flapping his gums as usual. I've played seriously for less than 3 years if that is important to you. You've played what, for over 40 years, and you're dead scared of playing Stan. I think I prefer to be a noob than a coward with no heart but to each their own.
hmmmm, no, AL. Hal was teaching an early form of CTE to guys on the forums -- with the 15, 30, and 45 cuts -- in the late 90's. He even called me up at home one day out of the blue.
What you may not know is that for a while there was a shadow group to RSB called ASP where some of these discussion took place. Here's an early post reposted to ASP:
#####
rec.sport.billiard ›
Houle - Very Loooong!
H. Hilari
6/29/99
I'd like to thank Ron Hudson for helping me avoid the typing of the
Houle System. *Of this 2 emails, the one that I received was the first
one. *Please excuse the lenght of the post (I won't do it again).
H. Hilario
--
ICQ #39446275
Billiard is not a game nor a sport but a delicate *and beautiful art
form; and still is more than that...is an expression of life
BEGINOFHOULE
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:14:01 -0400 (EDT) From: POO...@aol.com Message-ID: <97082820112...@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: Ron Hudson Subject: Professional Aiming System MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit X-UIDL: 1047 Status: U
There are only 3 angles for any shot, on any size table. This includes; caroms, single rail banks, double rail banks, 1, 2, 3, and 4 rail banks, and double kiss banks. Any table has a 2 to 1 ratio; 3 1/2 x 7, 4 x 8, 4 ˝ x 9, 5 x 10, 6 x 12. It is always twice as long as it is wide. The table corners are 90 degree angles. When you lay a cue from the side pocket to the corner pocket, you are forming an angle of 45 degrees. When you lay a cue from the side pocket to the middle diamond on the same end rail, you are forming an angle of 30 degrees. *When you lay a cue from the side pocket to the first diamond on the same end rail, you are forming an angle of 15 degrees. When you add up these 3 angles, they total 90 degrees, which is the same angle formed by the table corners. The cue ball relation to object ball relation shot angle is always 15, 30, or 45 degrees. The solution is very simple. There are only 2 edges on the cue ball to aim with, and they are always exactly in the same place on the cue ball. There are only 3 exact spots on the object ball to aim to, and they are always exactly in the same place on the object ball. So, 2 edges on the cue ball, and 3 spots on the object ball; 2 x 3 = 6 which is the total number of table pockets. This means that, depending upon how the cue ball and object ball lie in relation to one another, you may either pocket the object ball directly into a pocket or bank it into any one of the remaining 5 pockets. Of course, the reverse is true. If the relationship of cue ball to object ball can only be a bank, so be it. There is never a need to look at a pocket or cushion while lining up the edge on the cue ball to the spot on the object ball. You have only those 3 angles Your only requirement is to recognize whether your shot is a 15, 30, or 45 degree angle. Recognizing those 3 angles can be accomplished in an instant by aiming the edge of the cue ball to one of the spots on the object ball. It will be obvious which object ball spot is correct. There will be no doubt. Any time either one of the 2 edges on the cue ball is aimed at any one of the 3 spots on the object ball, that object ball must go to a pocket. Choose the correct spot and the object ball will most certainly go to the chosen pocket. The top professional players in the game have always known about this professional aiming system, but they are a closed fraternity, and you are the enemy. Interested in where those spots are located? The 2 places on the cue ball are the left edge of the cue ball when you are cutting the object ball to the left; and the right edge of the cue ball when you are cutting the object ball to the right. The 3 spots on the object ball are the quarters, and the center. The quarters and center of the object ball face straight at the edges of your cue ball, not facing toward the pocket. In other words, if you were on a work- bench at home, there would be no pocket, so you would just line up the edge of the cue ball straight to your target on the object ball. When you cut to the left for 15 degrees, aim the left cue ball edge at the object ball left quarter. When you cut to the left for 30 degrees, aim the cue ball left edge at the object ball center. When you cut to the left for 45 degrees, aim the cue ball left edge at the object ball right quarter. When you cut to the right for 15 degrees, you aim the cue ball right edge at the object ball right quarter. When you cut to the right for 30 degrees, you aim the cue ball right edge at the object center. When you cut to the right for 45 degrees, you aim the right cue ball edge to the object ball left quarter. If you'll just get down and aim your old way, you'll be close to where you should be aiming. Look to see (without changing your head or eye position) just where the cue ball edge is aiming at the object ball. You'll see that on every shot that the cue ball edge is always aiming at the same targets on the object ball. Remember, this system is for any shot on the table; banks, caroms, combinations, and so forth. The only shot remaining is the extreme cut *for any shot over 45 degrees. Aim the cue ball edge to the eighth of the object ball (which is half of the quarter). *Don't let the pocket influence you. Have a friend hold the ball tray between the object ball and the pocket, so you cannot see the pocket, and you'll see that those 3 angles will handle just about anything. Of course, you would have chosen the 15, 30, or 45 degree angle before your friend put the ball tray in place. It also makes it much more interesting if you don't tell your friend how you are pocketing the ball without seeing the pocket. Have some fun. For any questions, call me. Regards, POOL HAL
#####
PJ's response at the time was pretty funny but of course I can't quote him since he's on sabbatical. In any case, in no time at all John was a fan, though perhaps not the most vocal. Here's a post from ASP in 2000 by Sincerely Sam in which John is ID'd as "Pro Houle":
Just for the Houle of it.
sam
10/24/00
I am just wondering how many people here have been in a teaching situation
for more than 10 minutes with Hal Houle? *Here are the ones I can name and
by their posts whether they feel they gained from his teachings. *I can't
speak for any others. *They will have to let you know.
1. *Sam (Pro Houle) 2. *Don Martin 3. *SSCS (Pro Houle) 4. *Poolplayer (Pro Houle) 5. *Linda Moss (Pro Houle) 6. *Becky 7. *Doug 8. *Bob Johnson (Pro Houle) 9. *John Collins (Pro Houle)
Any others? *Just wondering. *
) *Sincerely, Sam#####
John himself speaks up in the following post from 2003 responding to Charlie Edwards and says he met Hal n 2000. It is funny to note that, even way back then, he was claiming (wait for it) a "two ball" improvement having learned the system.
John Barton
2/23/03
HAL HOULE aiming system to be taught be Master BCA instructor
Charlie,
In the first eighteen years of my pool playing I have hit a million balls. I used to practice to the 9th degree. *Then when I met Hal three years ago and started using the system he taught me I started making more balls, especially on the shots that I used to have trouble on. *The aiming felt all wrong. *It felt awkward. *Most of the time I would have bet that I would miss the ball using Hal's system. *Then I met a road player who used to run around with Buddy Hall and he showed me essentially the same thing in a simplified manner. *Now I am consistently able to split the pocket at any speed. *Shots that before were always trouble have now become routine. *I have shown this to my playing friends and they are almost always amazed. And most of these are good run out players.
My old diving coach used to tell me "if it feels wrong then it's probably right". *What he meant was that in the transition between the wrong way to do something and the right way the right way will often feel awkward.
I think that you can practice a shot until the end of time and still not get it right. *Some people have an innate talent for seeing the right way while others need some form of enlightenment. *I am one of those that needs help and I got it in the form of coaching from Hal, and a few pros. *I could have practiced and hit another million balls and still not been able to do the things I can do now after getting some insight from those who "know" more.
Has the new way to aim made me a world beater? *Not hardly. *I still have bad habits like jumping up, choking up on my stroke and so on. *But I can credit the aiming systems with making a lot more shots and getting out quite a bit more. *I can honestly say that I play at least two balls better now than I did two years ago and this is with almost no routine practice.
John
#####
I guess some things never change
Lou Figueroa
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In more ways than one.
-Sean
Sean the math genius still taking shots. What a joke you are boy. Still waiting for the math and be assured, not holding my breath.
And if you want to start casting stones Sean, I'll do some research and pull up the streaming video of you playing where you couldn't hit the rail with the object ball. I seem to recall you had a full book of excuses, but that should come as no surprise, that's your specialty it seems.
I'm one of them. I didn't start this thread. I'm pretty sure I've never started an aiming thread in the Main Forum. Perhaps when I was newer here and didn't understand, I may have inadvertently. But is it up to Sean to determine where the threads should go? I believe they have moderators for that. And for a thread that he apparently is disgusted by and complained loudly about, he sure has posted a lot on it.
+++ Mark shakes head at the hypocrisy of it all while Sean keeps posting on the thread in the wrong room that he complained about+++
You know, nob, you make a big deal out of malicious slandering but you can't show me where I've done it, all the while repeatedly calling me a "coward," and other names, because I'm not stupid enough to believe I can play a pro level player.
You are very much beginning to remind me of a guy I have on Ignore and I'm starting to believe my best course of action is to let you join your doppelgänger in my bit bin.
Lou Figueroa
Ron Swanson
Banned
That's the problem Lou, I look at your words and am puzzled by what you really mean. Here's a couple of examples. Yes, redundant but it apparently flew over your head the first time.
On one hand, Lou states that he wouldn't believe Willie Mosconi if he came back from the dead and touted CTE/Pro One as valid; however
on the other hand, Lou believes that John Schmidt knows more about how Stevie Moore aims than Stevie Moore does.
Your words Lou and clearly, they are completely opposing logic. Well, if your logic is you want to twist and manipulate facts to support your argument, I guess it is sound as it can be.
On one hand, Lou doesn't like CTE because of the 1/2 tip pivot and how that could ruin your stroke and break down under pressure; however
Lou seems okay with BHE, which would generally use a larger pivot than CTE and doesn't have a problem with his personal cadre of experts touting the benefits of BHE.
Oh I'm sure there is a logical explanation for these conflicts in logic and I'm sure given time Lou, you could twist it around to make your form of befuddled common sense. But people with average intelligence and an ounce of common sense can easily figure you out.
Ron Swanson
Banned
hmmmm, no, AL. Hal was teaching an early form of CTE to guys on the forums -- with the 15, 30, and 45 cuts -- in the late 90's. He even called me up at home one day out of the blue.
What you may not know is that for a while there was a shadow group to RSB called ASP where some of these discussion took place. Here's an early post reposted to ASP:
#####
rec.sport.billiard ›
Houle - Very Loooong!
H. Hilari
6/29/99
I'd like to thank Ron Hudson for helping me avoid the typing of the
Houle System. *Of this 2 emails, the one that I received was the first
one. *Please excuse the lenght of the post (I won't do it again).
H. Hilario
--
ICQ #39446275
Billiard is not a game nor a sport but a delicate *and beautiful art
form; and still is more than that...is an expression of life
BEGINOFHOULE
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:14:01 -0400 (EDT) From: POO...@aol.com Message-ID: <97082820112...@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: Ron Hudson Subject: Professional Aiming System MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit X-UIDL: 1047 Status: U
There are only 3 angles for any shot, on any size table. This includes; caroms, single rail banks, double rail banks, 1, 2, 3, and 4 rail banks, and double kiss banks. Any table has a 2 to 1 ratio; 3 1/2 x 7, 4 x 8, 4 ˝ x 9, 5 x 10, 6 x 12. It is always twice as long as it is wide. The table corners are 90 degree angles. When you lay a cue from the side pocket to the corner pocket, you are forming an angle of 45 degrees. When you lay a cue from the side pocket to the middle diamond on the same end rail, you are forming an angle of 30 degrees. *When you lay a cue from the side pocket to the first diamond on the same end rail, you are forming an angle of 15 degrees. When you add up these 3 angles, they total 90 degrees, which is the same angle formed by the table corners. The cue ball relation to object ball relation shot angle is always 15, 30, or 45 degrees. The solution is very simple. There are only 2 edges on the cue ball to aim with, and they are always exactly in the same place on the cue ball. There are only 3 exact spots on the object ball to aim to, and they are always exactly in the same place on the object ball. So, 2 edges on the cue ball, and 3 spots on the object ball; 2 x 3 = 6 which is the total number of table pockets. This means that, depending upon how the cue ball and object ball lie in relation to one another, you may either pocket the object ball directly into a pocket or bank it into any one of the remaining 5 pockets. Of course, the reverse is true. If the relationship of cue ball to object ball can only be a bank, so be it. There is never a need to look at a pocket or cushion while lining up the edge on the cue ball to the spot on the object ball. You have only those 3 angles Your only requirement is to recognize whether your shot is a 15, 30, or 45 degree angle. Recognizing those 3 angles can be accomplished in an instant by aiming the edge of the cue ball to one of the spots on the object ball. It will be obvious which object ball spot is correct. There will be no doubt. Any time either one of the 2 edges on the cue ball is aimed at any one of the 3 spots on the object ball, that object ball must go to a pocket. Choose the correct spot and the object ball will most certainly go to the chosen pocket. The top professional players in the game have always known about this professional aiming system, but they are a closed fraternity, and you are the enemy. Interested in where those spots are located? The 2 places on the cue ball are the left edge of the cue ball when you are cutting the object ball to the left; and the right edge of the cue ball when you are cutting the object ball to the right. The 3 spots on the object ball are the quarters, and the center. The quarters and center of the object ball face straight at the edges of your cue ball, not facing toward the pocket. In other words, if you were on a work- bench at home, there would be no pocket, so you would just line up the edge of the cue ball straight to your target on the object ball. When you cut to the left for 15 degrees, aim the left cue ball edge at the object ball left quarter. When you cut to the left for 30 degrees, aim the cue ball left edge at the object ball center. When you cut to the left for 45 degrees, aim the cue ball left edge at the object ball right quarter. When you cut to the right for 15 degrees, you aim the cue ball right edge at the object ball right quarter. When you cut to the right for 30 degrees, you aim the cue ball right edge at the object center. When you cut to the right for 45 degrees, you aim the right cue ball edge to the object ball left quarter. If you'll just get down and aim your old way, you'll be close to where you should be aiming. Look to see (without changing your head or eye position) just where the cue ball edge is aiming at the object ball. You'll see that on every shot that the cue ball edge is always aiming at the same targets on the object ball. Remember, this system is for any shot on the table; banks, caroms, combinations, and so forth. The only shot remaining is the extreme cut *for any shot over 45 degrees. Aim the cue ball edge to the eighth of the object ball (which is half of the quarter). *Don't let the pocket influence you. Have a friend hold the ball tray between the object ball and the pocket, so you cannot see the pocket, and you'll see that those 3 angles will handle just about anything. Of course, you would have chosen the 15, 30, or 45 degree angle before your friend put the ball tray in place. It also makes it much more interesting if you don't tell your friend how you are pocketing the ball without seeing the pocket. Have some fun. For any questions, call me. Regards, POOL HAL
#####
PJ's response at the time was pretty funny but of course I can't quote him since he's on sabbatical. In any case, in no time at all John was a fan, though perhaps not the most vocal. Here's a post from ASP in 2000 by Sincerely Sam in which John is ID'd as "Pro Houle":
Just for the Houle of it.
sam
10/24/00
I am just wondering how many people here have been in a teaching situation
for more than 10 minutes with Hal Houle? *Here are the ones I can name and
by their posts whether they feel they gained from his teachings. *I can't
speak for any others. *They will have to let you know.
1. *Sam (Pro Houle) 2. *Don Martin 3. *SSCS (Pro Houle) 4. *Poolplayer (Pro Houle) 5. *Linda Moss (Pro Houle) 6. *Becky 7. *Doug 8. *Bob Johnson (Pro Houle) 9. *John Collins (Pro Houle)
Any others? *Just wondering. *
#####
John himself speaks up in the following post from 2003 responding to Charlie Edwards and says he met Hal n 2000. It is funny to note that, even way back then, he was claiming (wait for it) a "two ball" improvement having learned the system.
John Barton
2/23/03
HAL HOULE aiming system to be taught be Master BCA instructor
Charlie,
In the first eighteen years of my pool playing I have hit a million balls. I used to practice to the 9th degree. *Then when I met Hal three years ago and started using the system he taught me I started making more balls, especially on the shots that I used to have trouble on. *The aiming felt all wrong. *It felt awkward. *Most of the time I would have bet that I would miss the ball using Hal's system. *Then I met a road player who used to run around with Buddy Hall and he showed me essentially the same thing in a simplified manner. *Now I am consistently able to split the pocket at any speed. *Shots that before were always trouble have now become routine. *I have shown this to my playing friends and they are almost always amazed. And most of these are good run out players.
My old diving coach used to tell me "if it feels wrong then it's probably right". *What he meant was that in the transition between the wrong way to do something and the right way the right way will often feel awkward.
I think that you can practice a shot until the end of time and still not get it right. *Some people have an innate talent for seeing the right way while others need some form of enlightenment. *I am one of those that needs help and I got it in the form of coaching from Hal, and a few pros. *I could have practiced and hit another million balls and still not been able to do the things I can do now after getting some insight from those who "know" more.
Has the new way to aim made me a world beater? *Not hardly. *I still have bad habits like jumping up, choking up on my stroke and so on. *But I can credit the aiming systems with making a lot more shots and getting out quite a bit more. *I can honestly say that I play at least two balls better now than I did two years ago and this is with almost no routine practice.
John
#####
I guess some things never change
Lou Figueroa
Two Balls Barton.
Break a leg Lou, ignore at your leisure.
Who's the one that started all the pot-shotting? If I recall correctly, you took the first shot at me with the "prove CTE through math" thing when I merely pointed out the obvious -- that this thread belongs elsewhere, and I wasn't the first one in this thread to point it out.
And, look how quickly you get riled up when someone replies in kind -- i.e. shows you the mirror. It's actually hilarious watching you lose your top. Over what? Because of a benign comment I made that had nothing to do with you?
And go ahead and post that link. You're right -- "I can't play any better than that video shows." That begs the question -- wanna play some? Name the game and your price. I'm serious.
-Sean <-- here it comes, "I won't play you, but I double-dog dare you to play Stan, Stevie, or Landon"
This thread seems to bear out something I said in the series of articles I wrote on CTE several years ago. In them, I said that the controversy over CTE had to do with its marketing on these forums.
The letters "CTE" (standing for Center-To-Edge) are just a name given to a certain aiming system in order to market it (identify it, explain it, sell it). It's called, "branding." The letters themselves are harmless. There is nothing in them for anyone to hate. The same goes for the system, itself. It is harmless. There is nothing in it for anyone to hate.
So what is the source of all the arguments on here any time a CTE thread is started?
I think it stems from the disagreement between those who think CTE has no right to be marketed here at all, and those who think it does. It's not so much a matter of whether or not the system works, or doesn't work, anymore. The merits and/or demerits of the system have been hashed and rehashed many times. Now the argument seems to exist more for the purpose of having something to argue about. I guess some people might get a certain satisfaction out of being able to say that they won the argument, if that could ever happen. But then, I think there would be even more people who would be totally lost and would go looking for something new to argue about.
Roger
The letters "CTE" (standing for Center-To-Edge) are just a name given to a certain aiming system in order to market it (identify it, explain it, sell it). It's called, "branding." The letters themselves are harmless. There is nothing in them for anyone to hate. The same goes for the system, itself. It is harmless. There is nothing in it for anyone to hate.
So what is the source of all the arguments on here any time a CTE thread is started?
I think it stems from the disagreement between those who think CTE has no right to be marketed here at all, and those who think it does. It's not so much a matter of whether or not the system works, or doesn't work, anymore. The merits and/or demerits of the system have been hashed and rehashed many times. Now the argument seems to exist more for the purpose of having something to argue about. I guess some people might get a certain satisfaction out of being able to say that they won the argument, if that could ever happen. But then, I think there would be even more people who would be totally lost and would go looking for something new to argue about.
Roger
Banks
Banned
If it were just put out there once in a while, I don't think people would care so much. The fact that it was nearly spammed across the forum and various, unverified claims were made continuously, that seemed to be the biggest problem. I never liked the barrage of CTE-touting threads by the same people and to make repeated claims without any scientific proof is just asburd, as is shown by the zealotry of its followers. Either you can beat 40-year-experience pro-speed players or you get the book-in-progress responses from the people that can't play as well as they post. I found it easier to simply put most of the AZB telemarketers on ignore.
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