Standardized 8 ball rules

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I recently got a dvd of Mike Sigel vs Louie Roberts playing 9 ball from the late 80's. Being a realtive newcomer to 9 ball, I was surprised that the rules were different, they were spotting balls.

It seems that everybody is using Texas express rules now in 9 ball. How did the change take place and why can't they do the same thing with 8 ball?
 
alstl said:
I recently got a dvd of Mike Sigel vs Louie Roberts playing 9 ball from the late 80's. Being a realtive newcomer to 9 ball, I was surprised that the rules were different, they were spotting balls.

It seems that everybody is using Texas express rules now in 9 ball. How did the change take place and why can't they do the same thing with 8 ball?

Not sure what you mean. The rules for professional 8 ball ARE fairly standard. Now, league and bar play are a whole different animal. Those will never be standardized, because those rules are designed to appeal to the "fun" type player. I would go so far as to say some bar rules were designed way back when to prevent the good player from having too much of an advantage.

Of course, I think we have Will Mosconi and Minnestoa Fats to blame for the horrible rules played in bars. When they were on TV doing exhibitions, they would call every little carom, bounce off the rail, etc, in order to "educate" the viewers. This morphed into having to call every little niggling detail of a shot in bars.

Nothing makes me angrier than my opponent scratching with my ball behind the line in 8 ball, then kicking at my ball long ways, and then losing my shot because the cue ball caught a second rail just before pocketing my ball. Or, conversely, calling it two rails and accidentally kicking it straight in and losing my shot. And then being thought of as an @**hole for getting visibly irritated at having to turn over the table.

Russ
 
How do you call this one?

Generally in call shot bar room 8 Ball A lot of people play soft rail okay and that is the way I think it should be. Now before I start anything, I do relize that is not always the case.
Here is one that happen to be just last Night. My opponent has a ball sitting in each corner pocket. At the pocket in front of be the ball is a little to far out of the jaw to try and follow it in or squeeze his out and go thru. I op to go bank to the cross side corner. I call it off his ball. It actually hits his ball perfect center and follows it in. Question is that a good shot? Or does it need to be called "after yours" or "with yours.":confused:
 
Russ Chewning said:
Nothing makes me angrier than my opponent scratching with my ball behind the line in 8 ball, then kicking at my ball long ways, and then losing my shot because the cue ball caught a second rail just before pocketing my ball. Or, conversely, calling it two rails and accidentally kicking it straight in and losing my shot. And then being thought of as an @**hole for getting visibly irritated at having to turn over the table.

Russ

I used to turn a lot of these rules around on people. If they potted a ball and it touch a cusion on the they way in then I would call foul, it is a bank :D. If they had all of their balls behind the head string I would foul on purpose. It was fun, and it pissed people off so much they would eventually play my rules :D.

As for as the original post goes, I think it was a type o in the thread name, I think they are talking about 9 ball. Ya there was a change, you used to be able to push out at any point in the game.
 
These are the house rules at the local pub. They've been using them for a while now and nobody has complained. Originally they were going with ball in hand anywhere, but after a lot of moaning and groaning from a few "regulars" it was changed to ball in hand behind the line.

House Rules for 8 Ball

1.) Object of the game: Eight Ball is a call shot game played with a cue ball and 15 object balls, numbered 1 through 15. One player must pocket balls of the group numbered 1 through 7 (solids), while the other player has 9 through 15 (stripes). The player pocketing his entire group first, and then legally pocketing the 8 ball wins the game.


2.) Call Shot: In call shot obvious balls and pockets do not have to be indicated. It is the opponent’s right to ask which ball and pocket if he is unsure of the shot. Bank shots, combination shots, and kicks are not considered obvious and must be called. When calling a shot it is never necessary to indicate details such as the number of cushions, banks, kisses, caroms etc. The opening break is not a called shot and the player breaking may continue to shoot so long as any object ball is legally pocketed on the break.

3.) Challenger racks / Winner breaks: The incoming challenger puts up the quarters and racks. The player who won the previous game breaks.

4.) Racking the Balls: The balls are racked in a triangle at the foot of the table with the 8 ball in the center, the one on the foot spot, a stripe in one corner and a solid in the other.

5.) Scratch on the break: If a player scratches on the break, the table is open and the incoming player has ball in hand behind the headstring and may not shoot at an object ball behind the headstring unless he first shoots the cue past the headstring and causes the cue ball to come back and hit the object ball.

6.) Balls jumped off the table on the break: If a player jumps any ball off the table on the break it is considered a foul and the incoming player has the choice of: a.) accepting the table in position as is, or: b.) taking the cue ball in hand behind the headstring. All jumped balls stay down.

7.) 8 Ball on the break: If the 8 ball is pocketed on the break it is an automatic win for the breaker.

8.) Open Table: (Defined) The table is “open” when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has yet to be determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit any solid or stripe first in the process of pocketing the called ball. However, on an open table it is a foul to contact the 8 ball first and no pocketed ball will be scored in favor of the shooter. The shooter loses his turn; the incoming player has ball in hand behind the headstring and the table is still “open”.

9.) Choice of Group: The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break, even if balls are made from only one or both groups. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break.

10.) Legal Shot: (Defined) On all shots (except the break, and when the table is open, the shooter must hit one of his group of balls first and: a.) pocket a numbered ball, or: b.) cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a rail. It is permissible for the shooter to bank the cue ball off a rail before contacting the object ball. Failure to meet these requirements is a foul.

11.) Safety Shots: For tactical reasons a player may choose to execute a legal shot and also give up his turn at the table. If the shooter intends to pocket one of his balls in the execution of a safety he must make his opponent aware of his intention. If this is not done and one of the shooter’s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again.

12.) Scoring: A player is entitled to continue shooting until failing to legally pocket a ball of his group. After legally pocketing his entire group of balls, he shoots to pocket the 8 ball.

13.) Foul Penalty: Opposing player gets cue ball in hand behind the headstring. . If all of the incoming player’s object balls are behind the line he can request that one of his object balls be spotted (placed on the footspot).

14.) Combination Shots: Combination shots are allowed; however the 8 ball can’t be used as the first ball in the combination unless it is the shooter’s last remaining ball. Otherwise, should such contact occur on the 8 ball, it is a foul.

15.) Balls jumped off the table: If the cue ball or any object ball is jumped off the table it is a foul and loss of turn, unless it is the 8 ball which is loss of game. Jumped object balls are not re-spotted.

16.) Cue Ball Fouls Only: it is not a foul to accidentally touch stationary balls located between the cue ball and the shooter while in the act of shooting. If such an accident occurs, the player should inform his opponent who may then request that the ball be placed back where it was originally or opt to leave it as it is.

17.) Jump and Masse’ Shot Foul: While cue ball fouls only is the rule of play, players should be aware that it will be considered a cue ball foul if during an attempt to execute a jump, curve, or masse’ shot over or around an impeding ball that is not a legal object ball, the impeding ball moves (regardless of whether it was moved by a hand, cue stick, or bridge).

18.) Playing the 8 Ball: When the 8 ball is the legal object ball, a scratch or foul is not loss of game if the 8 ball is not pocketed or is not jumped off the table. The shooter gives up his turn at the table and the incoming player has ball in hand behind the headstring.

19.) Loss of Game:
A player loses the game if he, or she:
a.) Fouls when pocketing the 8 ball.
b.) Pockets the 8 ball on the same stroke as the last of his group.
c.) Jumps the 8 ball off the table (at any time).
d.) Pockets the 8 ball in a pocket other than the one designated.
e.) Pockets the 8 ball when it is not the legal object ball.

Note: All infractions must be called before another shot is taken, or else it will be deemed that no infraction occurred.
 
alstl said:
I recently got a dvd of Mike Sigel vs Louie Roberts playing 9 ball from the late 80's. Being a realtive newcomer to 9 ball, I was surprised that the rules were different, they were spotting balls.

It seems that everybody is using Texas express rules now in 9 ball. How did the change take place and why can't they do the same thing with 8 ball?

The Texas Express 9-Ball rules were formulated by the three gentleman who founded the Texas Express Group. The rules swept though the country like a bad rumor would. Reasons to follow later.....randyg
 
randyg said:
The Texas Express 9-Ball rules were formulated by the three gentleman who founded the Texas Express Group. The rules swept though the country like a bad rumor would. Reasons to follow later.....randyg

Are they still alive? If so, I would pay them $5.00 to come up with some standard 8-ball rules.

When you play somebody 9-ball you don't have to discuss the rules in advance, except in a friendly match a lot of people don't like to cheese in the 9-ball.

In 8-ball, even within the same pool room there are different rules. I know a local room that has two 8-ball leagues on different nights, and different rules each night.
 
alstl said:
I recently got a dvd of Mike Sigel vs Louie Roberts playing 9 ball from the late 80's. Being a realtive newcomer to 9 ball, I was surprised that the rules were different, they were spotting balls.

It seems that everybody is using Texas express rules now in 9 ball. How did the change take place and why can't they do the same thing with 8 ball?
It has already been done. Look on the WPA or BCA web site for the World Standardized Rules for all the varioius games.

It is unfortunate that VNEA/APA/IPT/Joe's Bar League make up their own rules rather than go with the standard rules.

"Texas Express" is short hand for something like "balls stay down, cue ball anywhere." I doubt that you are playing by the actual rules of the Texas Express organization, which is no longer in business so far as I know.
 
alstl said:
Are they still alive? If so, I would pay them $5.00 to come up with some standard 8-ball rules.

When you play somebody 9-ball you don't have to discuss the rules in advance, except in a friendly match a lot of people don't like to cheese in the 9-ball.

In 8-ball, even within the same pool room there are different rules. I know a local room that has two 8-ball leagues on different nights, and different rules each night.
I think one reason for disparities is, copyrights. Look at the IPT, they had to write their own rule set, so as not to be sued. The APA had to do the same thing. If their was one set of rules that was free to all, then maybe it would be a step in the right direction.

Tracy
 
Bob Jewett said:
It has already been done. Look on the WPA or BCA web site for the World Standardized Rules for all the varioius games.

It is unfortunate that VNEA/APA/IPT/Joe's Bar League make up their own rules rather than go with the standard rules.
You posted this, while I was typing. Did I get it wrong, again? :eek: Are there sanctioning fees that are assessed, for using the rules that you mentioned?

Tracy
 
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8 ball 3 option rules

The behind the headstring rules that were refer to are used by my local independent league but with some differences.

1. You get what you make on the break. No cross combos. If you make any # of both it is open.

2. If you fly a ball off the table your opponents would stay down yours gets spoted. Loss of turn even if you made your shot. The 8 would be a loss of game.

3. If all your object balls are behind the headstring, you have the option to spot only the closest ball to the headstring. Or if you are on the 8 you have the option to spot it

4. If you do not make a good hit with something to the rail after contact, there are 3 options. Your opponent can shoot from behind the headstring and out. 2nd shoot from were it lies in any direction or 3rd make you shoot again from where it lies.

5. All you need to call is the ball and the pocket. no need to call kisses or caroms, double kisses or extra rails. Even on the 8 ball.

6. Scratcing on the 8 is loss of game. Not making a good hit on the 8 is just loss of turn.
 
The earlier 9 ball rules had no ball in hand on fouls. You could foul or push at any time, the only penalty was your opponent could either shoot or have you shoot again, which could be another push. Sometimes could take a while before anyone got a open shot.

Usually only the ball before the 9 or the 9 itself was spotted on a foul. In ring games balls on fouls would be spotted depending on the number of players, 4 balls before the 9 if 5 players ect.

The Texas Express rules were quite a shock to me when I started playing again.
 
Bob Jewett: One third of the Texas Express Group is still alive and well using that handle......randyg
 
RSB-Refugee said:
... Are there sanctioning fees that are assessed, for using the rules that you mentioned?

Tracy
No. Sanctioning by the BCA/WPA has to do with other issues. I think that if you get a sanction you are expected to use the rules, but some tournaments don't. The BCA/WPA rules are available for free on-line.
 
alstl said:
[...]
When you play somebody 9-ball you don't have to discuss the rules in advance, except [...]

LOL

Last night was our first night of 8-ball league. I was warming up with 56-year-old Mike Chewakin, our newest team member. Chewy's a strong player and he's been around a lot of blocks, but he hasn't played in a long time. We grabbed a 9-foot table and agree on a buck a rack 9-ball. He walked up to the table, waved both hands in both directions over the top of the table like a cross between the creater of the universe and the Wizard of Oz scarecrow and said loudly, BALL IN HAND **ANYWHERE** ON THE TABLE ON **ANY** FOUL.

I asked him where he parked his time machine...

Then after our league match, he and I matched up scotch doubles bar-table 9-ball (for $2 a rack this time) against the other two members of our team. Once again, Chewy spoke loudly, BALL IN HAND **ANYWHERE** ON THE TABLE ON **ANY** FOUL....

It's gonna be an interesting year.
 
powderburner said:
The earlier 9 ball rules had no ball in hand on fouls. You could foul or push at any time, the only penalty was your opponent could either shoot or have you shoot again, which could be another push.
The Texas Express rules were quite a shock to me when I started playing again.

When I started playing, the rule was you could push anytime there had been no push or foul beforehand. In the event of ANY two fouls/push in a row, the incoming player had ball in hand anywhere. This only applied to heads up play. Ring games were ball in hand behind the string on a scratch, on a miss play from where the cue lies. You were expected to make an "honest" attempt to hit the "on" ball.
I'll say it again, ball in hand anywhere, anytime, SUCKS big time. Ruined 9 ball, making it tactical instead of strategic:(
 
Pushout said:
....I'll say it again, ball in hand anywhere, anytime, SUCKS big time. Ruined 9 ball, making it tactical instead of strategic:(

I sort of miss the strategy of pushing to a spot you figured you could make a ball but your opponent couldn't so would give the shot back. I spent a lot of time practicing long rail banks where the ob was froze on the rail and such. Also spot shots with cb control was a major requirement. Seems there are a lot of shots you never see now because everybody plays a safe rather than take a difficult shot.
 
powderburner said:
I sort of miss the strategy of pushing to a spot you figured you could make a ball but your opponent couldn't so would give the shot back. I spent a lot of time practicing long rail banks where the ob was froze on the rail and such. Also spot shots with cb control was a major requirement. Seems there are a lot of shots you never see now because everybody plays a safe rather than take a difficult shot.

I think 9-ball would be more interesting game with one simple rule change, "allowed" push out becomes "mandatory" push out. So the first shot after the break is always a push.
 
powderburner said:
I sort of miss the strategy of pushing to a spot you figured you could make a ball but your opponent couldn't so would give the shot back. I spent a lot of time practicing long rail banks where the ob was froze on the rail and such. Also spot shots with cb control was a major requirement. Seems there are a lot of shots you never see now because everybody plays a safe rather than take a difficult shot.

Going back to my original post about the dvd between Sigel and Roberts, Louie Roberts is pretty much a legend in St Louis. I never saw him play but I asked a guy who runs a pool room here about him and he said Louie was good at pushing to a spot which left a difficult long cut shot knowing that he had the advantage.

I still don't quite understand how they got 9-ball under control but 8-ball is so goofy as far as the rules are concerned. Maybe congress should pass a law (although that could make it worse).
 
Bob Jewett said:
No. Sanctioning by the BCA/WPA has to do with other issues. I think that if you get a sanction you are expected to use the rules, but some tournaments don't. The BCA/WPA rules are available for free on-line.
Well, that's another myth debunked. Sometimes you have to say something stupid, to learn something new and I'm glad to do it. I wonder if the people, that wrote their own sets of rules, knew that BCA/WPA rules are free to use. I mean, what would they have to gain, by taking on such a daunting task, that has already been done so well?

Tracy
 
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