State of Ball in Hand

[8paulbreak]

So I am currently helping with a league and we are switching from using a standard ruleset authored by a larger organization which I would prefer leaving out of the conversation for now, and move to our own rules. We feel there are some areas of improvements with how they are now, and leaves too much up for debate. We are currently in discussion with the "state" of ball in hand and how we can remove the argument(s) players tend to have. While thinking about this, keep in mind all other league rules are still in motion and we still use all the general rules of the game.

Firstly, it's worth mentioning that with the current rules, a player must call anything non-obvious, and while that rule has enough problems in itself, I would rather not have a discussion about what an 'obvious' shot is and for people reading to just go off your idea of what would need to be called or not. What we are hoping to explain has nothing to do with the shot itself, only the fact that some shots would be considered a foul (slop) if not called and some wouldn't.

That being said, we play ball-in-hand for the opponent after a foul. For those who don't know, ball-in-hand gives the player freedom to place the cueball anywhere on the playing surface. As the title states, band-in-hand typically means a player places the cue ball with their hand to line the shot up. For minor adjustments, players have been known to adjust the cue ball slightly using their shaft on top of the cue ball and rolling it into place. Nothing wrong with this method of using the shaft currently, however, if a player using this method does any of the following, it is considered a foul;

• show any forward motion with their cue stick,
• touch the tip of the cue with the cue ball (not specifically our rule but what most players go by)

Regardless if the player was adjusting or not. While this isn't the most problematic rule, it's one that currently can't be decided based off one player or another. Who can really say the difference between the tip and the ferrule touching or the .01mm motion a player made was forward or side? Let go ask the person that didn't see it (me) and tell them 2 different stories, no thank you.

So here's what we are thinking, if a player could move the cue ball however they want with their hand, why should the cue be any different? Players should be allowed to do whatever they want with the cue ball in terms of legal placement, however, they must call next shot. They can use the tip, shaft, hand, ferrule, whatever they want to place the cue ball, even take a practice stroke at the cue ball, cause in the end, if players can do the same thing now, just needs to be with their hand what difference does it make if it's with the cue stick? Some may ask, well how do we know what difference between a stroke for their shot or not? That's where the calling the shot comes into play, so for whoever is watching can know once an object ball is contacted with the cueball (from a legal stroke), the intention was for the called ball to be pocketed. It would be the exact same thing as having band-in-hand while shooting the 8-ball legally, aside from the whole winning the game thing.
Lastly, we found reason to believe that there's no obvious shot when a player has ball in hand, in which case would need to be called either way, but that's just a supporter for now.

The ruling would say, 'players with ball-in-hand must call their next shot', and would eliminate the entire multi-section ruling for ball-in-hand placement.

Would love to hear what you guys think, or if anyone can think of a situation where this wouldn't work?

Thanks!

Paul

 

[Renegade_56]

When did slopping a ball in become a foul?

 

[Bob Jewett]

I think it is a big mistake to try to come up with your own rules. I think you will do better by choosing a standard set like the CSI/BCAPL rules or the World Standardized Rules (WPA and BCA). If you want to add some minor explanations and such, that would probably be good to do. The CSI rules have lots of explanations and cases discussed already.

The CSI rule set goes into considerable detail on what must be called and how to handle various situations.

As far as the specific problem of deciding when the cue ball changes from "in hand" to "in a shot", I think that's covered in both of the rule sets I mentioned. I suppose you could add that the player must be down in shooting position for the cue ball to have left "in hand".

 

[Island Drive]

. They can use the tip, shaft, hand, ferrule, whatever they want to place the cue ball,

Thanks!

Paul

Here yah gotta big problem

 

[Renegade_56]

Sounds like a mess to me, do you get to move the cue ball a shaft width from the rail as well?

 

[8paulbreak]

Here yah gotta big problem

Can you explain what the problem would be?

 

[8paulbreak]

I think it is a big mistake to try to come up with your own rules. I think you will do better by choosing a standard set like the CSI/BCAPL rules or the World Standardized Rules (WPA and BCA). If you want to add some minor explanations and such, that would probably be good to do. The CSI rules have lots of explanations and cases discussed already.

The CSI rule set goes into considerable detail on what must be called and how to handle various situations.

As far as the specific problem of deciding when the cue ball changes from "in hand" to "in a shot", I think that's covered in both of the rule sets I mentioned. I suppose you could add that the player must be down in shooting position for the cue ball to have left "in hand".

I'm not trying to say what is a shooting position or not, just that with ball in hand, there's no way to determine what shot will be the one that they'll take, they can always switch it and shoot something else, who's to say in the end, and it also lets them not need to call the non-obvious shots if another ball in play was obvious. Calling a shot isn't changing the rules, it's just that a ball-in-hand should be considered a non-obvious shot, and for that, let a player do what they want until they're ready to shoot.

 

[Island Drive]

Can you explain what the problem would be?

Anytime....THE tip....touches the cue ball, it's a shot.

 

[8paulbreak]

Anytime....THE tip....touches the cue ball, is a shot.

Totally see where you're coming from, and same goes for it being a foul for the player who touched a cue ball with anything else, except for ball in hand when they are allowed anything but their tip, same goes for calling the 8 ball on an obvious shot... Same goes for setting up ball in hand with a bridge, if the bridge touches the cue ball before the shot, does that count? Or maybe the player who grabs a cue with no tip should be the exception? There's too many ways of doing the exact same thing, all which do not matter unless an object ball is hit. Why should it matter, when the opponent doesn't even know what shot they'll take?

 

[Geosnookery]

This isn’t to dismiss your question but ‘we don’t care’. We don’t get into the minutia of such things. We play for fun.

It’s better to just state that ‘abc’ ( WPA, etc) rules apply. We also don’t challenge shots or debate rules during a game. The shooter decides. ‘After’ the game someone can bring up an issue. This way it’s not about ‘the moment’ and easier to discuss in a detached way. Perhaps adjust a rule to accommodate lesser skilled players.

If you say ‘you can’t do that!’ During a frame it’s confrontational.

The key is to know a broader rule set so a player is aware of them outside of your own particular league, when we play Snooker we have a half dozen or so customized rules we apply but everyone knows official rules.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I'm not trying to say what is a shooting position or not, just that with ball in hand, there's no way to determine what shot will be the one that they'll take, they can always switch it and shoot something else, who's to say in the end, and it also lets them not need to call the non-obvious shots if another ball in play was obvious. Calling a shot isn't changing the rules, it's just that a ball-in-hand should be considered a non-obvious shot, and for that, let a player do what they want until they're ready to shoot.

All rule sets allow the player to continue adjusting the cue ball until they shoot.

Different rule sets allow different positioning methods for the cue ball when in hand. At snooker when the cue ball is in hand, the player may adjust the cue ball any way he pleases, including with the tip, and it is not considered a shot unless the referee feels the player was attempting a shot. If the player is not in shooting position and rolls the cue ball around a little with his cue, he is very obviously not playing a shot.

By the WSR, it is not a shot or a foul if the tip touches the cue ball while it is hand provided it is not with a forward stroke motion.

It seems from your question that the players in your room are trying to catch each other on technicalities. Is that why this question comes up?

 

[DryFlyTrout]

Ball in hand seems to suggest to me the ball should be positioned by hand. Not with your cue. IMO any contact between the cue and the cue ball is a shot. If for no other reason than to remove any ambiguity. The cue should be different than the hand because who wants to decide if the adjustment was made with the ferrule/shaftor the tip when they didn't actually witness the contact?

I'm not particularly against adjusting the CB with a cue. I just don't do it myself. That way there is never a question about it. If you decide being able to position the CB with your hand, a shaft, a chair, whatever it should be referred to as something other than ball in hand.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... it should be referred to as something other than ball in hand.

I think I've seen a cartoon of a player shooting with the cue ball resting on his hand. That would be the real ball in hand. Calling it ball in hand even though your stick might touch the ball has a long history. People are unlikely to change. One reason to use your cue to adjust the cue ball with your cue is to minimize transferring whatever is on your hand to the ball.

 

[bbb]

what i find as an interesting observation is after putting the cue ball down where the player wants it
invariably he then moves it alittle

 

[garczar]

Ball in hand seems to suggest to me the ball should be positioned by hand. Not with your cue. IMO any contact between the cue and the cue ball is a shot. If for no other reason than to remove any ambiguity. The cue should be different than the hand because who wants to decide if the adjustment was made with the ferrule/shaftor the tip when they didn't actually witness the contact?

I'm not particularly against adjusting the CB with a cue. I just don't do it myself. That way there is never a question about it. If you decide being able to position the CB with your hand, a shaft, a chair, whatever it should be referred to as something other than ball in hand.

Is it not blatantly obvious when a player is just moving the ball vs. playing a shot???? This is really splitting hairs. Back in the day shit like this is what started fights.

 

[hang-the-9]

Totally see where you're coming from, and same goes for it being a foul for the player who touched a cue ball with anything else, except for ball in hand when they are allowed anything but their tip, same goes for calling the 8 ball on an obvious shot... Same goes for setting up ball in hand with a bridge, if the bridge touches the cue ball before the shot, does that count? Or maybe the player who grabs a cue with no tip should be the exception? There's too many ways of doing the exact same thing, all which do not matter unless an object ball is hit. Why should it matter, when the opponent doesn't even know what shot they'll take?

Anytime you touch the cueball when it's live it's a foul. So in the case of putting the cueball down to shoot, then hitting it with a bridge while setting up for the shot is a foul. Same as when you get down to shoot it and tap it with the cue stick.

What shot they are planning to do does not matter. Any player with a third of a brain and half a can of honesty can tell and make the right call about what is a shot and what is adjusting the cueball for the shot. Same way players know what is an "obvious" shot.

I don't think I have ever had an issue with someone moving the cueball with their shaft to adjust position, and even in larger tournaments they basically said "you all know what is a shot and what is adjusting the cueball with a cue, don't be idiots about it".

 

[DDiabolico]

Players should be allowed to do whatever they want with the cue ball in terms of legal placement, however, they must call next shot. They can use the tip, shaft, hand, ferrule, whatever they want to place the cue ball, even take a practice stroke at the cue ball, cause in the end, if players can do the same thing now, just needs to be with their hand what difference does it make if it's with the cue stick? Some may ask, well how do we know what difference between a stroke for their shot or not? That's where the calling the shot comes into play, so for whoever is watching can know once an object ball is contacted with the cueball (from a legal stroke), the intention was for the called ball to be pocketed. It would be the exact same thing as having band-in-hand while shooting the 8-ball legally, aside from the whole winning the game thing.
Lastly, we found reason to believe that there's no obvious shot when a player has ball in hand, in which case would need to be called either way, but that's just a supporter for now.

The ruling would say, 'players with ball-in-hand must call their next shot', and would eliminate the entire multi-section ruling for ball-in-hand placement.

In my opinion, with ball in hand, the cueball should only be placed by hand, not with the shaft, ferrule, tip or anything else. Adjusting the position with the ferrule or the shaft just became a widely accepted habit. When I don't know my opponent I solely place the cueball with my hand. When playing someone I know I do adjust the position with my shaft every now and then, but only in lateral movements (left/right). It's hard to argue you didn't take a shot when you wanted to roll the cueball forward with your shaft on top of it, but accidently hit it with the tip, which technically makes it a legal shot.

What do you even mean with 'practice stroke'? Do you mean you may strike the cueball as long as you don't hit another ball?

 

[Bob Jewett]

In my opinion, with ball in hand, the cueball should only be placed by hand, not with the shaft, ferrule, tip or anything else. Adjusting the position with the ferrule or the shaft just became a widely accepted habit. ...

Of course that would be nearly impossible to change at this point. Adjusting the cue ball position with the cue stick has been a standard practice for over 100 years.

 

[Luxury]

I played BCAPL and TAP for a decade and then I joined a local league that had made their own rules and my opponent loudly yelled foul when I had ball in hand and adjusted with my shaft.

I couldn’t believe it but I didn’t argue then another time my opponent was adjusting the cue ball with his shaft BEFORE THE BREAK and someone on my team who was outside smoking a cigarette was yelling foul through the window. I refused to take ball on hand and let him break.

I explained to people in the league that this is a complete waste of time and backbreaking work to have to walk over and get down on your shot walk back over the cue ball adjust it walk back get down and look at it again walk all the way back and do it again.

Years later I joined the league again And they had just changed the rule the year before so you could move the cue ball with your shaft like normal leagues.

 

[DryFlyTrout]

Of course that would be nearly impossible to change at this point. Adjusting the cue ball position with the cue stick has been a standard practice for over 100 years.

Changing a rule is as simple as typing a few words. It's hardly impossible to change. Some players may experience a more difficult time adjusting to changes than others however. Different events already have different rules. Players are far more adaptable than you give them credit for.