Statement from The Legends of Pocket Billiards

[shinobi]

Has everything to do with what you wrote, huge pockets or not, you still need to have an idea about how to play 14.1 to string racks together, the POCKETS won't do that for you! Had Ruslan stuck around for a week, you might NOT be talking about Jason Shaw running 714 today!!! Think about THAT!!

In fact, if Ruslan broke the record chances are you wouldn't have even seen Jayson Shaw play at all!

Except it really doesn't have anything to do with what I wrote.

You're talking about theoretical.

I'm talking about reality. SvB did play. Earl did play. Ruslan did play. None of them put up surprising numbers.

If you want to theorize that it was only a matter of time before Ruslan or anyone else made 714 that's nice. You might be right. But it's a theory.

Also, I asked if SVB, Earl or Ruslan had either commented on the table OR congratulated Jayson on the 714. Their opinion would be highly valuable, but I haven't seen them offer it. Did they?

If the pockets are 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9" wide it's a fair debate how fair that is to previous records. But if multiple pros step up and shoot their normal-ish scores and approximately their normal personal bests (plus or minus a statistically reasonable number) and then only one player steps up and dominates the table, how much should I care about the pockets? It's a little like the debate of 7 foot table versus 8, 8.5, 9 or 10 foot table. Easy pocketing vs more clusters, and so on.

Regardless of the pocket size, Jayson was playing unbelievably consistent break ball position. Over and over and over again, great cut angles to open up the rack. About the only thing that varied was whether he broke from the left or right side

 

[realkingcobra]

Do you really think anyone getting paid is going to complain about the pocket size??

 

[realkingcobra]

Except it really doesn't have anything to do with what I wrote.

You're talking about theoretical.

I'm talking about reality. SvB did play. Earl did play. Ruslan did play. None of them put up surprising numbers.

If you want to theorize that it was only a matter of time before Ruslan or anyone else made 714 that's nice. You might be right. But it's a theory.

Also, I asked if SVB, Earl or Ruslan had either commented on the table OR congratulated Jayson on the 714. Their opinion would be highly valuable, but I haven't seen them offer it. Did they?

If the pockets are 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9" wide it's a fair debate how fair that is to previous records. But if multiple pros step up and shoot their normal-ish scores and approximately their normal personal bests (plus or minus a statistically reasonable number) and then only one player steps up and dominates the table, how much should I care about the pockets? It's a little like the debate of 7 foot table versus 8, 8.5, 9 or 10 foot table. Easy pocketing vs more clusters, and so on.

Regardless of the pocket size, Jayson was playing unbelievably consistent break ball position. Over and over and over again, great cut angles to open up the rack. About the only thing that varied was whether he broke from the left or right side

I guarantee you, if the top 64 players in the world were playing in a world 14.1 world championship event, and the 16 tables they were playing on had these size pockets, and only 8 players were going to walk away with some kind of money in their pocket, you'd hear the complaints then!!!!

 

[shinobi]

Do you really think anyone getting paid is going to complain about the pocket size??

Fair point. Nevertheless you are comparing a theoretical against reality (ie: theoretical is your own guess for why they didn't comment, positively or negative, versus reality which is that I haven't heard of ANY comment either way).

I find it interesting if they haven't congratulated Jayson though, considering how much flack John S got despite actually congratulating him.

 

[shinobi]

I guarantee you, if the top 64 players in the world were playing in a world 14.1 world championship event, and the 16 tables they were playing on had these size pockets, and only 8 players were going to walk away with some kind of money in their pocket, you'd hear the complaints then!!!!

If every table was the same, and 64 players competed, what would the complaints be?
Sounds like the top 8 players walked away with money because they played better than the other 56 players on identical tables.

 

[realkingcobra]

If every table was the same, and 64 players competed, what would the complaints be?
Sounds like the top 8 players walked away with money because they played better than the other 56 players on identical tables.

In a race to 200, do you really think there wouldn't be any blaming if the pocket sizes to account for the 200-0 score losses?? Darren Appleton is the only player in history with a 200-0 win in the finals, what would the players be thinking if there was several 200-0 losses?

 

[shinobi]

In a race to 200, do you really think there wouldn't be any blaming if the pocket sizes to account for the 200-0 score loses?? Darren Appleton is the only player in history with a 200-0 win in the finals, what would the players be thinking if there was several 200-0 lose

If that happens, then at least you could point to something reality-based instead of theoretical.
If we want to play the theory game I could say that players would complain they are scratching too often off of the break because the pockets are buckets.
Pick your poison.

I'm happy to be proven wrong, but hopefully it will be by reality, not theoretical concerns.

 

[realkingcobra]

If that happens, then at least you could point to something reality-based instead of theoretical.
If we want to play the theory game I could say that players would complain they are scratching too often off of the break because the pockets are buckets.
Pick your poison.

I'm happy to be proven wrong, but hopefully it will be by reality, not theoretical concerns.

So I guess you don't think Jayson's record can be broke either, right?

 

[skogstokig]

Except it really doesn't have anything to do with what I wrote.

You're talking about theoretical.

I'm talking about reality. SvB did play. Earl did play. Ruslan did play. None of them put up surprising numbers.

If you want to theorize that it was only a matter of time before Ruslan or anyone else made 714 that's nice. You might be right. But it's a theory.

Also, I asked if SVB, Earl or Ruslan had either commented on the table OR congratulated Jayson on the 714. Their opinion would be highly valuable, but I haven't seen them offer it. Did they?

If the pockets are 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9" wide it's a fair debate how fair that is to previous records. But if multiple pros step up and shoot their normal-ish scores and approximately their normal personal bests (plus or minus a statistically reasonable number) and then only one player steps up and dominates the table, how much should I care about the pockets? It's a little like the debate of 7 foot table versus 8, 8.5, 9 or 10 foot table. Easy pocketing vs more clusters, and so on.

Regardless of the pocket size, Jayson was playing unbelievably consistent break ball position. Over and over and over again, great cut angles to open up the rack. About the only thing that varied was whether he broke from the left or right side

sums up my position. jayson beat the previous event high run with 400 balls and that speaks for itself. wouldn't mind full specs on the table though.

 

[HawaiianEye]

Jayson Shaw put on a clinic and deserves accolades for his 714.

However, the complete specs of the table need to be revealed so that any future attempts can be done on a table with the same specs so that accurate comparisons can be made.

He ran hundreds of balls on multiple attempts, but he also made many, many multiples of balls that would NEVER go on ANY normal Gold Crown in Hawaiian Brian's or any other pool hall in Hawaii.

 

[kanzzo]

imagine if the way we acted on the internet translated into real life. a bunch of avid pool fans all gathered around the derby to celebrate pool and some of you guys just walked up to some of those guys and started yelling and screaming about the dimensions of their pockets. what a funny world we live in.

in Derby both players play on the same table. If they play one pocket and bottom right pocket is a little more favorable then bottom left - they play alternate breaks and next game you can choose the more favorable pocket. So this problem doesn't come up in Derby normally.

If it's a high run event and there is a price (like world record) for the high run but John Schmidt is allowed his tries only on a 5'' table while Jayson Shaw is allowed to play on 5 1/4'' table, then most viewers probably wouldn't consider it fair.

And no one is screaming. I never got louder.

 

[kanzzo]

So, if I was invited to run balls on a table that was eligible for a world record, and I thought I had a chance of doing it, one of my first questions would be, “Before I spend the next x number of days/weeks bent over this table, can you guarantee me that this table meets the standards the BCA uses when they verify the run?”

I don’t know Jayson. Am I wrong to assume he would make similar enquiries?

EDIT: Because pretty much all the people accusing Legends of shenanigans have at some point qualified their statements with something like, “It’s not Jayson’s fault. He deserves better.”

It seems to me that Jayson knows those pockets just about better than anyone. It also seems to me that he’s pretty happy to claim the new word record.

In my "feeling" or understanding of justice Jayson should be the world record holder because of his great performance. But in the same way BCA should not approve the World Record because the table specification where altered beyond acceptable (bigger then 5 1/8 '').

But Jayson got some financially reward from "Legends" for his time and most viewers think his patterns improved a lot and he needed less then a week to run 700. So if the record doesn't get approved by BCA (which I hope), Jayson is a favorite so set a new world record on a regular 5'' table in a relatively small time frame.

 

[realkingcobra]

In my "feeling" or understanding of justice Jayson should be the world record holder because of his great performance. But in the same way BCA should not approve the World Record because the table specification where altered beyond acceptable (bigger then 5 1/8 '').

But Jayson got some financially reward from "Legends" for his time and most viewers think his patterns improved a lot and he needed less then a week to run 700. So if the record doesn't get approved by BCA (which I hope), Jayson is a favorite so set a new world record on a regular 5'' table in a relatively small time frame.

So you feel Jayson is the best there is at 14.1?

He's the best of 4 players right now, how many have NOT had a chance yet on that SAME table???

 

[kanzzo]

So you feel Jayson is the best there is at 14.1?

He's the best of 4 players right now, how many have NOT had a chance yet on that SAME table???

i meant you can't compare it, because they played on different equipment.

I don't want to see John Schmidt come back with 800+ on 6'' pockets and then Ruslan putting up 850+ on 7'' pockets...

On the Legends table he is just the best of the 4 that tried so far. This is correct. Would be still a Record of some kind.

 

[realkingcobra]

i said you can't compare it, because they played on different equipment.

I don't wont to see John Schmidt come back with 800+ on 6'' pockets and then Ruslan putting up 850+ on a 7'' pockets...

On the Legends table he is just the best of the 4 that tried so far. This is correct. Would be still a Record of some kind.

So then the big unanswered question still remains, is Bobby going to continue his search for the best there is, and keep paying out the so called financial reward to every player that comes along and breaks the high run record, pushing it higher and higher? Or is this event now dead in the water because its already served its purpose, and no need to let anyone else have a crack at the title, even better players at 14.1 than Jayson is??

 

[kanzzo]

Or is this event now dead in the water because its already served its purpose

the record isn't approved yet by BCA and I hope it won't

your other questions are not big questions for me. I would love to see other players trying to put incredible high runs and I enjoyed every one so far. But I have zero impact on this.

like in
"grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference"

perhaps I can have influence on the BCA decision in some way. Perhaps I can help pointing out to other members, where it would lead, if we accept new world records on bigger pockets every time.

I have no influence on Bobby, if he would like to proceed with this event...

If something similar can get organized for all the players with some crowd funding for the prizes, I am willing to chip in.

 

[Shuddy]

In my "feeling" or understanding of justice Jayson should be the world record holder because of his great performance. But in the same way BCA should not approve the World Record because the table specification where altered beyond acceptable (bigger then 5 1/8 '').

But Jayson got some financially reward from "Legends" for his time and most viewers think his patterns improved a lot and he needed less then a week to run 700. So if the record doesn't get approved by BCA (which I hope), Jayson is a favorite so set a new world record on a regular 5'' table in a relatively small time frame.

But there’s an assumption there that the pockets are bigger than 5 1/8”. I’m yet to see anything conclusive to prove they are.

But my point is that if Jayson didn’t do his due diligence, he’s going to feel a little bit of a schmuck if the BCA refuses to ratify the run. A (insert x numbers of dollars here) richer schmuck, but not a world record holding one.

I wouldn’t have let myself be put in that situation, and I don’t believe money was the only factor in the ridiculous display of stubborn head bashing he participated in for a week. EDIT: I think his closing statement on what he thought was his last session is proof of this: “Sorry guys, I couldn’t do it. But it can be done. I’ll be back. I know I can do it.” (approximately)

 

[kanzzo]

The video stream was not stopped and we had no idea Jason was gonna break any records. After he broke a record my commitee decided to secure the video to protect Jayson. Rumors are Terrible and speculation also. So that's our final statement for now. Thanks for all your hard work posting stats Gerry. Any further comments will be posted to our Facebook page The Legends of Pocket Billiards. Thanks again Gerry.

When the stream stopped, Bobby said the video would be posted later that day.

A man of integrity, a man of his word would keep his promise no matter the circumstances, that led to this promise.
If I am not thinking clearly when I promise my Grandma to pick her up at the airport I would still do everything to pick her up in time if it is somehow in the range of my possibilities.

For other people their word might be of lesser importance

I don't care if I have to pay to see Jayson's run in full. Just pointing out things I find interesting. Human behavior is an interesting topic...

 

[kanzzo]

But there’s an assumption there that the pockets are bigger than 5 1/8”. I’m yet to see anything conclusive to prove they are.

5 1/8'' is 5.125 this pocket is precisely 5.25. This photo was provided by Jayson after his record run.

If I zoom in on this photo on my monitor, then the two balls are 14.4 cm and pocket corner to corner is 16.8 cm. So no matter what your monitor and resolution, the pocket is 168/144 times bigger then the 2 balls. Since diameter of an aramith ball is exactly 2 1/4 '' this picture corresponds to exactly 5 1/4'' pockets (and 139° angle of the cushions)

 

[kanzzo]

But my point is that if Jayson didn’t do his due diligence, he’s going to feel a little bit of a schmuck if the BCA refuses to ratify the run. A (insert x numbers of dollars here) richer schmuck, but not a world record holding one.

quite possible. I would feel bad being in his shoes. But it wasn't a once in a lifetime opportunity for him. He can have another chance to become undisputed high run holder. He was still learning the game the first 3 days. He was shooting multiple 300+ the last days. He is one of the straightest shooters the world has seen. Everyone can make a mistake (like showing a lack of due diligence)...