Statistics and is Accu stats TPA outdated

R

rangelsammon

Member
I find this the most lacking aspect of covering in the game we love. Other sports succeed with more money drawn in due to stats. With stats you can: gamble with non pool players, earn revenue from ads on stat pages with play by play, and create excitement on a tracking stats. I have been working on a project for tracking stats in real-time to share in real-time too. I am curious what everyone thoughts are. One suggestion…no more grading a safe until you know the outcome of the next shot.
Below is a screenshot of one level of data I collect. I track MUCH more. including break, ways won, shot accuracy in ways no one has done. If anyone can pass this along to Pat Fleming. Id love to start a dialogue regarding stats.
IMG_7851.jpg



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Quality of a safe is independent of what the other player does. If a person can kick it in or make a good hit that is on the skill shot of that player not the safe of the opponent. You can play a bad safe, the other player can still play a bad shot and end up fouling. Plus with jump cues, safes are just about impossible to get as good as they used to get.
 
I agree. Its my mindset that a player cannot achieve a 1.000 tpa if they play what i think is a lock up safety, and the other play kicks into a rail to jump over a ball then 4 rails to pocket a ball to run out.


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At the moment. Me. I would definitely need to sell the idea to others to use. More data the better for the game in terms of comparison and fan interaction. With my stats I have includes interaction where you can change the ball range that is next ball, shape to next ball and rack range to see comparisons.


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also add. In real time. at the moment i do 9 ball and 10 ball. But could easily expand to other games.


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No offence and hats off to your diligence but i have zero interest in stats, in any game/sport. The only thing i ever bet on (in any game) is win/loss. I just don't see anything creating 'excitement' in tracking stats. Just my $.02 here, nothing more.
 
no offense taken. thanks for the reply. i know there will be a crowd that doesnt like stats. but i know there is the majority crowd that doesnt was speculative assesment and prefers factual assesment.


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garczar said:
No offence and hats off to your diligence but i have zero interest in stats, in any game/sport. The only thing i ever bet on (in any game) is win/loss. I just don't see anything creating 'excitement' in tracking stats. Just my $.02 here, nothing more.
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The recent SVB/Shaw match was a very clear bet for me. I thought it was starting a couple days later than it did-I wasn’t paying attention. So no bet.

I’ve been paying careful attention to SVB this year and have done rather well with my bets-after he got back from the Denis match in the Pi I knew he was tired/burned out. then the US Open he almost dropped his first set to a junior. I knew stats aside SVB was burned out and a dog in his next $ match unless he played me, then he’s still a favorite. SVB wasn’t going to beat anyone that session.

Stats only tell the present situation not the future. Knowing pool more deeply than numbers is where the rubber meets the road. But for some who enjoy numbers I’m behind that for them.

Stats are cool and yeah I’m all for it if someone wants to put in the effort. But I can make my picks for gambling or fun without looking at numbers. Post match they usually tell the story I just watched, but I’ve been sweating pool for a zillion years and I know what I’m watching. Who out broke who, who missed the most etc.

However for lesser experienced rail birds and enthusiasts having those “numbers” stats can’t hurt. Can’t harm anything, If having extensive stats like in baseball or what ever would help pool audiences and retention in our sport-then I’m behind them and that idea 100%.

Speaking for myself only, it’s not important to me what the numbers are. They are a little interesting At Large posts his stats here and I do appreciate them and read them. But they have no influence on my future decisions on action. They are more interesting to me if I didn’t see the match. Reading the stats kinda tells the story, but again I usually know the story anyways based on scores-especially on long 3-4 day matches.

I’m not knocking the idea, if it’s good for pool. Great! I’m behind it.

Best
Fatboy😃😃
 
I would agree that TPA doesn't get the whole job done, but it does add value and until someone comes up with something better, it's nice to have around.

One problem I have is that it doesn't distinguish between a two-way shot and another. At double hill in a match to reach the last 16 at the US Open last week, Mario He played a shot on the four ball and, while he missed, the defense he played with it gave Roland Garcia a big problem that he was unable to overcome. Mario's miss proved the match winner because of the nature of the miss. Mario's TPA would have dropped on that four ball, despite the fact that it was a shot very well executed that ultimately won him the match.
 
sjm said:
I would agree that TPA doesn't get the whole job done, but it does add value and until someone comes up with something better, it's nice to have around.

One problem I have is that it doesn't distinguish between a two-way shot and another. At double hill in a match to reach the last 16 at the US Open last week, Mario He played a shot on the four ball and, while he missed, the defense he played with it gave Roland Garcia a big problem that he was unable to overcome. Mario's miss proved the match winner because of the nature of the miss. Mario's TPA would have dropped on that four ball, despite the fact that it was a shot very well executed that ultimately won him the match.
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Great point Stu-brilliant

Some pool tactics (especially 2 & 3 way shots) never show up in the “numbers”. Which is why 1P is impossible to keep stats on. You can’t apply math or values to moves. It’s just not possible.

Only binary or true/false occurrences can become accurate stats. Pocketed balls, ball made on break, misses, etc. even kicks are a bit of a gray area. Moves are in the black- as there is no way to judge them with a numerical value.

This is why 1P is such a great game.

Thinking about it, banks & 8B would be difficult to keep stats on as well.

Seems like simple rotation games are best suited for stats. Which is cool. Thinking deeper the less balls or traffic the more accurate the stats would become. As there are fewer chances to “move” with less balls on the table.

Interesting topic now,

Best
Fatboy
 
sjm said:
I would agree that TPA doesn't get the whole job done, but it does add value and until someone comes up with something better, it's nice to have around.

One problem I have is that it doesn't distinguish between a two-way shot and another. At double hill in a match to reach the last 16 at the US Open last week, Mario He played a shot on the four ball and, while he missed, the defense he played with it gave Roland Garcia a big problem that he was unable to overcome. Mario's miss proved the match winner because of the nature of the miss. Mario's TPA would have dropped on that four ball, despite the fact that it was a shot very well executed that ultimately won him the match.
Click to expand...

If you listen to some of the commentary done by Mark Wilson (which I am sure you have) he notes that how Pat marks errors for TPA is strict vs Mark would give some leeway to shots like this. A miss is a miss and a safe is a safe and never the twain shall meet is how the Pat TPA is scored. Sometimes we need some absolute guidelines as to how to mark something, if we start giving exceptions we end up with 20 page rules on how to score and look at the shots, like we have with some things. Take some questions on ball in hand fouls, we need to look at if it was deliberate, how bad was the foul, is it cueball fouls only, if it is cueball fouls only exactly how much does it extend before the shot is a foul (moving 2 balls, moving 3 balls, moving in way of another ball, foul done on purpose to mess up the game, etc...). If we just say "if you touch a ball outside of a normal shot it's a foul", we just eliminate a bunch of decisions we need to make.

I don't think we need to keep super detailed stats on the players, I mean baseball is so lacking in action that all it has is stats to talk about during the games and to look at LOL. Pool has shots every 10-30 seconds and all sorts of things going in in middle of the game.
 
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hang-the-9 said:
I don't think we need to keep super detailed stats on the players, I mean baseball is so lacking in action that all it has is stats to talk about during the games and to look at LOL. Pool has shots every 10-30 seconds and all sorts of things going in in middle of the game.
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Me neither, but if TPA is to objectively measure the percentage of shots that were well-executed, the stat-keeper should retain the right to categorize a shot such as Mario's as a success rather than as a failure.

Baseball has about the same pace as pool. Omitting about forty-five minutes of downtime per nine innings, the game takes about 2:15, and in those 135 minutes, each team throws about 135 pitches, so you get a pitch every 30 seconds. Quite similar to pool's pace, unless it's Tony Drago you've been watching. In baseball, there can be action between pitches in the form of base stealing and its prevention.
 
Fatboy said:
The recent SVB/Shaw match was a very clear bet for me. I thought it was starting a couple days later than it did-I wasn’t paying attention. So no bet.

I’ve been paying careful attention to SVB this year and have done rather well with my bets-after he got back from the Denis match in the Pi I knew he was tired/burned out. then the US Open he almost dropped his first set to a junior. I knew stats aside SVB was burned out and a dog in his next $ match unless he played me, then he’s still a favorite. SVB wasn’t going to beat anyone that session.

Stats only tell the present situation not the future. Knowing pool more deeply than numbers is where the rubber meets the road. But for some who enjoy numbers I’m behind that for them.

Stats are cool and yeah I’m all for it if someone wants to put in the effort. But I can make my picks for gambling or fun without looking at numbers. Post match they usually tell the story I just watched, but I’ve been sweating pool for a zillion years and I know what I’m watching. Who out broke who, who missed the most etc.

However for lesser experienced rail birds and enthusiasts having those “numbers” stats can’t hurt. Can’t harm anything, If having extensive stats like in baseball or what ever would help pool audiences and retention in our sport-then I’m behind them and that idea 100%.

Speaking for myself only, it’s not important to me what the numbers are. They are a little interesting At Large posts his stats here and I do appreciate them and read them. But they have no influence on my future decisions on action. They are more interesting to me if I didn’t see the match. Reading the stats kinda tells the story, but again I usually know the story anyways based on scores-especially on long 3-4 day matches.

I’m not knocking the idea, if it’s good for pool. Great! I’m behind it.

Best
Fatboy
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Thanks for the input Fatboy! I feel bad saying that But one other interesting thing i do is play by play. generating from the shot. so now you could sweat a match without even watching. Im with ya on everything here and appreciate the feedback. But i will add, numbers do tell the future.


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sjm said:
I would agree that TPA doesn't get the whole job done, but it does add value and until someone comes up with something better, it's nice to have around.

One problem I have is that it doesn't distinguish between a two-way shot and another. At double hill in a match to reach the last 16 at the US Open last week, Mario He played a shot on the four ball and, while he missed, the defense he played with it gave Roland Garcia a big problem that he was unable to overcome. Mario's miss proved the match winner because of the nature of the miss. Mario's TPA would have dropped on that four ball, despite the fact that it was a shot very well executed that ultimately won him the match.
Click to expand...

Good insight! I have thought much about this. I would mark as a miss. Unfortunately during a match I cant go and ask a player, did you mean that? But clearly the attempt to make was taken and if the ball went down then bad shape. So i take into account a miss rather than a miss and bad shape.


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Fatboy said:
Great point Stu-brilliant

Some pool tactics (especially 2 & 3 way shots) never show up in the “numbers”. Which is why 1P is impossible to keep stats on. You can’t apply math or values to moves. It’s just not possible.

Only binary or true/false occurrences can become accurate stats. Pocketed balls, ball made on break, misses, etc. even kicks are a bit of a gray area. Moves are in the black- as there is no way to judge them with a numerical value.

This is why 1P is such a great game.

Thinking about it, banks & 8B would be difficult to keep stats on as well.

Seems like simple rotation games are best suited for stats. Which is cool. Thinking deeper the less balls or traffic the more accurate the stats would become. As there are fewer chances to “move” with less balls on the table.

Interesting topic now,

Best
Fatboy
Click to expand...

Yes agreed rotation best. But i will later entertain the idea of 8 ball and 1 pocket.


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hang-the-9 said:
If you listen to some of the commentary done by Mark Wilson (which I am sure you have) he notes that how Pat marks errors for TPA is strict vs Mark would give some leeway to shots like this. A miss is a miss and a safe is a safe and never the twain shall meet is how the Pat TPA is scored. Sometimes we need some absolute guidelines as to how to mark something, if we start giving exceptions we end up with 20 page rules on how to score and look at the shots.
Click to expand...

I would love to create a standardization for tracking stats. If anyone can show Pat this post.


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