Stroke Instructor Challenge

[luckwouldhaveit]

If you want the full version, well.... somethings just aren't for free.

Neil. Neil.. there's no reasoning is there, Neil?

Oh and your argument is invalid because pool is pool and snooker is snooker. It's also invalid because it's invalid and you know it's invalid. Now is a good time to mention that I know things that you can pay me to tell you.

 

[duckie]

My natural alignment for pool shooting has changed over the years.

The first time was after I broke my collar bone about 3 inches from the shoulder end and was not really set right. Maybe the fact the the day it happen, while in the figure 8 harness, I was shooting pool. So, my left collar bone took a set that is related to my bridge hand which I was placing in such a manner as not to cause pain while shooting.

Next was a broken right scapula at the joint. I'm right handed so that was my stroke arm. 8 weeks for that one.

Then, year later, broken right ankle, severly sprained right thumb. Thumb was in a cast for 4 weeks, ankle for 8 weeks. Once the thumb was out I was playing pool. Having the right ankle in a cast makes for a stance change and the thumb had no grip.

So, because of all these little things, by stroke, stance, bridging are not considered normal, but I sure can put the ball in the hole and put the cb where I want.

The point is unless you know what a person has experinced you really can't say what way is right or wrong for that person.

There must be a starting point when teaching someone that has very limited experince in pool playing. This is what the instructors do, start somewhere.

I bet that, over time, teaching someone they see a better way for that student to do something, they tell them or like in my case, once they understand why I can't do something a certain way, can go to their bag of tricks with something useful.

But when, teaching, you have to start somewhere in order to grow.

FWIW

 

[luckwouldhaveit]

Neil, here's something you posted earlier in the thread.

Ideally, the elbow would be over the cue.

Since it forms a line with your grip hand, it typically is. But why would it ideally be over the cue?

However, when we learn on our own, we can make bad habits work consistently with enough practice.

The aim here isn't to make bad habits work consistently, it's to actually fix them by addressing the root cause. I guess we have different goals.

Where the elbow is is nothing more than a symptom of a bad body alignment to start with. But, if it works for you, then it doesn't need to be addressed at all.

I can tell you exactly what my idea of bad body alignment is. It's alignment that skews the line 1 and 2 relationship. What's yours?
Why is the elbow a symptom of "bad" body alignment? For starters, what is your idea of bad body alignment and what makes you think it's "bad"?

 

[Neil]

................

 

[stumpie71]

Hopefully this can remain a civilized discussion. I would really like to hear some of the explanations from others as well as from "luck". This is a very intriguing subject and could be very helpful.

 

[Scaramouche]

How's the view?
randygt

Blue sky, sunshine, fluffy white clouds as far as the eye can see.

But somewhere down below there is a great storm raging, and people choosing to muck about in the mud.

 

[duckie]

Good, bad........this is the problem right here.

Saying that doing something one way as bad even tho the end result is achieved, implies that there is a good way and that this good way is the accepted way to do something.

The good, accepted way being what is taught by the instructors.

Until this view of good/bad is replaced with just different, there will always be sides and issues.

 

[luckwouldhaveit]

As I said earlier, if you want the full version, it will cost you. And, there is nothing wrong with that. Knowledge almost always cost something.

I don't know that you've convincingly established what the knowledge is worth.

Just because you see pros doing something, does not automatically mean that is the "right" way, or easiest way, and certainly doesn't mean it is the way that everyone should do it.

Your point is unclear, but no one is arguing with you about that.

What the instructors have done over time, is look at how the body works, what is needed for a straight stroke, and combined the two. Allowing for tweaks to each individual.

And I've done the same thing and arrived at a different conclusion. Furthermore I've provided the reasoning behind it. You have described the methods instructors used to find what you seem to think is good alignment, but thus far you have been unable to explain why it is good alignment.

The only conclusion you leave me with is that you're making an argument based on authority: stroke instructors researched this a lot so they are right.

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[luckwouldhaveit]

You are free to shoot and teach anyway you want to. Your post will speak for themselves. Some will agree with you, some won't.

I've supported my claims with explanations and people should look for credibility in what I wrote, not who I am.

The problem I have is you wanting to come on here like some authority and claiming that the professional instructors are not professionals, don't know what they are teaching or even why they teach what they do. That is WAY over the line, and in my eyes you lost all credibility right there.

Again you are discrediting the information I posted based on your perception of my actions, not the information itself.

For whatever reason, you seem to have it out for instructors. Good luck with that.

Actually some of the instructors have been very condescending and rude to other posters including myself in other stroke threads.

Especially since they have hundreds of posts on this forum supporting and thanking them, and you have none.

This is very similar to other arguments you have made, and has no bearing on the information I posted.

Again, I encourage you to explain your reasoning. If you're unwilling or unable to do so, then it'll amount to nothing more than petty squabbling.

 

[dr9ball]

I had avoided this thread like the plague, but now I'm comfortably ensconced in my recliner with popcorn and beverage in hand to view the DRAMA.

 

[Wolven]

Over the last few years I have learned a lot of things about pool from various sources:
this forum, books, DVD’s, local players. I have even taken instruction from 3different masters who teach for a living.
However, nobody has been able to explain biomechanics.
The most useful information on mechanics that I could find was in Max E. – ‘Powerful pool’.

The relationship between grip, lines 1 and 2 in this thread, body angle to line of aim, etc., are the key
and until Luckwouldhaveit started talking about them the only thing you could hear was pendulum and add to that some CTE and you have…………, <insert whatever you want>.

To me certain grips and wrist alignments work better with different body alignments and everything is subjugated to lines 1 and 2.

The strokes are different depending on relationship between elements mentioned above.

If we can understand this relationship we can all play better and fix ourselves when things breakdown.
Luckwouldhaveit is presenting a theory and a way to understand the motion and I think he is on to something. (btw. yesterday went very good, thanks)

 

[Roger Long]

Over the last few years I have learned a lot of things about pool from various sources:
this forum, books, DVD’s, local players. I have even taken instruction from 3different masters who teach for a living.
However, nobody has been able to explain biomechanics.
The most useful information on mechanics that I could find was in Max E. – ‘Powerful pool’.

The relationship between grip, lines 1 and 2 in this thread, body angle to line of aim, etc., are the key
and until Luckwouldhaveit started talking about them the only thing you could hear was pendulum and add to that some CTE and you have…………, <insert whatever you want>.

To me certain grips and wrist alignments work better with different body alignments and everything is subjugated to lines 1 and 2.

The strokes are different depending on relationship between elements mentioned above.

If we an understand this relationship we can all play better and fix ourselves when things breakdown.
Luckwouldhaveit is presenting a theory and a way to understand the motion and I think he is on to something. (btw. yesterday went very good, thanks)

Good post.

 

[randyg]

I had avoided this thread like the plague, but now I'm comfortably ensconced in my recliner with popcorn and beverage in hand to view the DRAMA.

You have found peace my friend. Your own "mountain top".....
randyg

 

[stumpie71]

I agree it is a good theory so far and would like to hear what others have to say. We have a lot of knowledgeable instructors and people on this site and it would be nice to hear what other views and theory's are out there and why. Hopefully it stays civilized so we can all benefit which is the purpose of this site.

 

[Neil]

..................

 

[stumpie71]

I have read all of the other post. And yes some of his replies were off base and insulting. Hopefully he can keep it toned down and everyone can discuss this. I think what he has brought up is very interesting. Combine that with some intelligent, experienced and open minded instructors it could possibly lead to something new and cut down on the learning curve. Or it could also turn into a flop but I prefer to be more optimistic

 

[Wolven]

STAYS civilized? You obviously haven't read all of his posts. And, his posts are exactly why the other instructors have not bothered to give him the time of day. As, I won't either anymore.

So far, I have learned that you don't use a snooker cue to play pool.

 

[pooltchr]

I have read all of the other post. And yes some of his replies were off base and insulting. Hopefully he can keep it toned down and everyone can discuss this. I think what he has brought up is very interesting. Combine that with some intelligent, experienced and open minded instructors it could possibly lead to something new and cut down on the learning curve. Or it could also turn into a flop but I prefer to be more optimistic

I think at least a few open minded instructors have figured out that attempting further discussion is not going to produce much of any value. I believe I understand the motivation behind this thread, and don't plan on playing that particular game.

Steve

 

[stumpie71]

I think at least a few open minded instructors have figured out that attempting further discussion is not going to produce much of any value. I believe I understand the motivation behind this thread, and don't plan on playing that particular game.

Steve

That's a shame. This could have become a very good and informative discussion. I do agree that he came across as having ulterior motives but hopefully he can chime in and clear things up and get this discussion back on track.