Stroke Instructor Challenge

I am not sure you understand the angle that the OP is talking about or how it is formed. I think it would be best to go back and read his explanation closer or you are simply debating something you don't actually see.

I understand what the OP wrote. The Higgins photo was fairly clear. I would like to see the players directly from behind, including their stances. I'm not questioning that this exists. Some of the photos are pretty clear. But sometimes the angle of a particular photograph can distort things a bit. I will take a closer look at Mika next time I see him play. I'll ask him about it as well.
 
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Check out the relationship between the lines in this pic..I had a hard time finding a better one. I'm not sure if you meant his stroking arm is perpendicular to the ground, but that's commonplace with this alignment.

250px-MC2008_M08_019_-_Mika_Immonen.jpg


I think you have proven that it exists. I believe it by some of the photos where it's obvious. I think it's also pretty obvious that it's more pronounced in some as opposed to others. I think the reason might lie in their feet placement, which affects how the torso, including their elbow, is lined up relative to the line of the shot. So is it really an anatomy issue or is it a result of their stances?

Players who may have tried to change or 'correct' this issue without adjusting their stances would find themselves totally frustrated and without success.
 
Wolven - I don't think I understand. I thought that your shoulder was outside the line of the shot, rather than above it (as I understand luckwouldhaveit is recommending). Have I missed something?

What is it about your alignment that means at a natural shoulder drop does not result in the cue deviating?

You also said in an earlier post that you were having some difficulty implementing the new technique consistently. What is it that goes wrong? The problem of the misalignment of the bridge hand might be solved by a change in foot position - have you tried that?

Why is this?

Keep in mind I’m changing major things. On Tuesday I shot great, perfect power control and straightness, but on Thursday I shot badly, so now there is confusion once again.

The biggest problem is that you end up in between 2 setups. I tried everything under the sun stance wise, some things work better together than others.

My grip changes but most of the time it is similar to Ronnie O'Sullivan grip. My middle finger is the key finger in the grip. The index finger supports the cue but sometimes is off it.

My shoulder is in a position that can rotate freely it is not cocked up in the air. I’m leaning and I’m squared off to the shot at the start. In a snooker type stance my shoulder and stroking line are on the right of my body.

When I setup like Mika and the rest of the pros with the 2 lines described by luckwouldhaveit the shoulder is still free to move it is not tightly pinned to my body. I’m shooting across my body.
The closer to the rail the more snooker like the stance. Mika and a lot of other pros do that too.

I don’t have all the answer, I’m just searching. It is close and it is there, I have it and feel it but it goes away.
 
For those that want to watch some video.

The setup discussed by luckwouldhaveit can be seen in the final match from US Open between Mikka and Ronnie Alcano. Some great shots of the setup there. Cool match either way.

There is a outstanding DVD by Max Eberly – ‘Powerful Pool’ by far the best fundamentals course available. Among many other things, it covers a pool stance but only mentions snooker stance briefly.
Max demonstrates everything you want to know about stroke, with and without elbow drop as he does both.

The determination of natural alignment shown in IPAT by Eckert and Huber, is a great idea but it is not covered deeply enough in my opinion.
 
In my experience while in a classic snooker stance my stroke feels very controlled, not natural or free flowing whatsoever. In order for me to produce the alignment in a snooker stance I have to lock my wrist in an unnatural position in accordance with my shoulder and elbow. By no means am I trying to discredit the snooker stance and alignment, but for my game personally it's not the most natural and would take a lot of work to ingrain that particular method.

I agree that different alignments work better with different grips. I have noticed it as well that depending which stance and plane I pick the grip changes. I don't find thumb pointing down the most comfortable.

What I find with snooker stance is the advantage when comes to aiming. My dominant eye as I don’t use the middle of the chin as the center point and the cue are always lined up.
Also going down on the shot produces very predictable result.
 
Keep in mind I’m changing major things. On Tuesday I shot great, perfect power control and straightness, but on Thursday I shot badly, so now there is confusion once again.

The biggest problem is that you end up in between 2 setups. I tried everything under the sun stance wise, some things work better together than others.

My grip changes but most of the time it is similar to Ronnie O'Sullivan grip. My middle finger is the key finger in the grip. The index finger supports the cue but sometimes is off it.

My shoulder is in a position that can rotate freely it is not cocked up in the air. I’m leaning and I’m squared off to the shot at the start. In a snooker type stance my shoulder and stroking line are on the right of my body.

When I setup like Mika and the rest of the pros with the 2 lines described by luckwouldhaveit the shoulder is still free to move it is not tightly pinned to my body. I’m shooting across my body.
The closer to the rail the more snooker like the stance. Mika and a lot of other pros do that too.

I don’t have all the answer, I’m just searching. It is close and it is there, I have it and feel it but it goes away.

Wolven

My experiences have been very similar (in fact I could have written most of your post myself!).

Working on more than one major change at once is tough (although once you have accepted that there will be ups and downs, and plenty of false dawns, it becomes a lot easier).

The obvious answer is to stick to one thing at a time, but until you are absolutely sure you have worked out what is right for you, this can give sub-optimal results - because different parts of the stroke can be connected, often in subtle ways.

Having said that, if you do want to fix one parameter while working on another, perhaps fixing the grip would be a good canditate. I am not sure if it is the grip that you are using, but I have found that using primarily the second finger and allowing the cue to rock is a very neutral hold and should not contribute to stroke errors. This has the advantage of allowing you to work on other aspects of your fundamentals without back hand effects confusing things.

Of course you can always return to the grip later, although this might not be necessary, particularly if you subscribe to the 'let the cue do the work' school.

If and when you do work on your grip, can I offer one piece of advice: make sure that the forefinger has as little part to play as possible. It is definately the cause of much more harm than good IMO.

If you feel like posting updates, I should be interested to hear how things progress.
 
Keep in mind I’m changing major things. On Tuesday I shot great, perfect power control and straightness, but on Thursday I shot badly, so now there is confusion once again.

The biggest problem is that you end up in between 2 setups. I tried everything under the sun stance wise, some things work better together than others.

My grip changes but most of the time it is similar to Ronnie O'Sullivan grip. My middle finger is the key finger in the grip. The index finger supports the cue but sometimes is off it.

My shoulder is in a position that can rotate freely it is not cocked up in the air. I’m leaning and I’m squared off to the shot at the start. In a snooker type stance my shoulder and stroking line are on the right of my body.

When I setup like Mika and the rest of the pros with the 2 lines described by luckwouldhaveit the shoulder is still free to move it is not tightly pinned to my body. I’m shooting across my body.
The closer to the rail the more snooker like the stance. Mika and a lot of other pros do that too.

I don’t have all the answer, I’m just searching. It is close and it is there, I have it and feel it but it goes away.

The first thing is to do is to keep track of what type of shots you are missing and how you are missing them. It is very important to know why you missed, if not you are hunting for a needle in a hay stack.

Another tip is stop trying to have the same style of playing as others. Find what works for you and stick with it. If you are shooting well, why change just because xxx does it this way.

The best thing to do is stop reading on how others do this is and that, once you have found what works for you, and just get to the table, refine your process.

Not everything you read holds true overall in pool. Such as how much grip pressure is needed for a shot. There appears to be a set pressure that is accpected as proper. I say this based on the statement about the snooker player going for certification and what he showed was the proper grip pressure.

However, in my playing, I've found there are varying degrees of grip pressure needed based on the shot you are doing. So I just go with what I know from playing and works and not from what someone just says. I vary my grip pressure as need for the shot.

You have to make this game your game, no one else's. You must kill the Budda.
 
However, in my playing, I've found there are varying degrees of grip pressure needed based on the shot you are doing. So I just go with what I know from playing and works and not from what someone just says. I vary my grip pressure as need for the shot.

Just an opinion, every time you grip your cue tightly your opponent rejoices :)
 
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Overcut to the left, undercut to the right. I have learned to compensate.
If I’m going to miss 9 times out of 10 it will be to the left of the pocket.
In the stroke straightness drill hitting the cueball down to the short rail and back, often enough the cueball will hit the tip in middle. I can do that even one handed standing completely erect.
The times it doesn’t and it happens often the cueball comes back to the right of the tip.
The more I think about the fundamentals the worse it gets. :)
 
90% is not a bad average. That says you know how to deliver a straight stroke. And if your stroke is true and you are missing shots, I suspect you are aiming at the wrong place.

Think about that for a minute. If you can deliver the cue ball where you are pointing the cue, then it becomes a question of where you are pointing the cue.

If you are aiming at the right place, and you are delivering the cue where you are aiming, then the shot goes in.

Steve
 
Before going on, would any stroke instructors care to weigh in on what I've stated?

Please say whether you:
Strongly Agree
Agree
Don't know
Disagree
Strongly Disagree

And why. If you have a differing opinion, feel free to share it.
 
90% is not a bad average. That says you know how to deliver a straight stroke. And if your stroke is true and you are missing shots, I suspect you are aiming at the wrong place.

Think about that for a minute. If you can deliver the cue ball where you are pointing the cue, then it becomes a question of where you are pointing the cue.

If you are aiming at the right place, and you are delivering the cue where you are aiming, then the shot goes in.

Steve
That's a positive spin on the situation. I usually beat the crap out of myself. :)

My assumption for the day will be that my mechanics are right even if I miss.
I will concentrate on the aiming factor instead.
I will let you know how it goes.
Thanks
 
Hitting the cb up and down table may not detect all stroke errors.

There was a period last year when I started missing long shots on a 12' snooker table by a frightening margin. But when I tested my stroke by hitting the white off the short rail and back, the cb returned to hit the tip every time. And this was not just soft shots.

At first I thought it was a sighting issue. But eventually I traced the error to some unintentional shoulder movement. For some reason this error only occurred when I was playing actual shots, not when doing the drill. Perhaps linked to anxiety?
 
For some reason this error only occurred when I was playing actual shots, not when doing the drill. Perhaps linked to anxiety?

So change the drill. Put the cb on the center spot of the headstring, and an object ball on the spot at the foot string. Now shoot a stop shot to make the ob bounce off the foot rail and come straight back to hit the cue ball. It forces you to shoot straight if you don't want the cb drifting to the side after contact. Gets you used to shooting at a ball, and not a spot on the rail.

Steve
 
Before going on, would any stroke instructors care to weigh in on what I've stated?

Please say whether you:
Strongly Agree
Agree
Don't know
Disagree
Strongly Disagree

And why. If you have a differing opinion, feel free to share it.


Don't know, but I appreciate the food for thought and will definitely look into it.
 
When my stroke isn't running straight my elbow position is often the cause - I have to adjust it toward or away from my body in order to get my stick on my sightline.

pj
chgo
 
This really is interesting. I've been lining up that way for years. I've tried to "correct" it at various times, but my old natural alignment has always crept back in. Occasionally, an observant student will point out that I don't align myself the same way I taught them to do, to which the only response I can think of is...........SHUT UP! :wink:

Roger

Very interesting! My 2 cents - forget changing the alignment to achieve a "new" straighter stroke. The tendency is to cram your old stroke into your new alignment. If you don't understand the different motion of the stroke you're going for, then your body will find a way to stroke the way you're used to within the new alignment and you'll wind up back at square 1.

Sooo it's been awfully quiet on one side of the room...

so let's talk about the death grip, which some argue causes deceleration in the stroke. Actually, I'd say that it's the other way around - that something else causes deceleration - and the deathgrip is just a symptom of the root cause.

Which is the forearm brake pedal. Your forearm muscles tense when you suddenly decelerate your arm. Now clench a fist. Familiar feeling? Leave your hand at a relaxed (slightly curled) position. Now tense your forearm - can you do that without your fingers moving? So my position is that the grip tends to tighten when the forearm decelerates the stroke, especially when it does so quickly.

So the remedy I've often heard is "keep a loose grip". Instead, I'd say don't decelerate with your forearm as abrudtly unless you need to avoid knocking the wind out of yourself.
 
I have to say I'm a bit surprised that the stroke instructors will not so much as agree or disagree. How can you in good conscience speak so authoritatively and furthermore charge people for something you can't or won't clearly define and are unwilling or unable to defend?
 
I have to say I'm a bit surprised that the stroke instructors will not so much as agree or disagree. How can you in good conscience speak so authoritatively and furthermore charge people for something you can't or won't clearly define and are unwilling or unable to defend?

When it comes to the stroke, there is not just one particular way that is perfect. When evaluating/teaching the stroke, it should be done on a case by case basis.

I was nice and cordial when you and I communicated via PM's, but I think it is in extreme poor taste to challenge professional instructors about what they charge for. For that reason, I hope that they all ignore you and this thread.
 
I was nice and cordial when you and I communicated via PM's, but I think it is in extreme poor taste to challenge professional instructors about what they charge for. For that reason, I hope that they all ignore you and this thread.

Yes, but I consider it the lesser of 2 evils. I don't consider the people I think you're referring to as professionals.
 
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