STROKE TIMING … A Complete MythBusting Study of Stroke Acceleration Effects
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
Ah Grasshopper...Damn, i knew it. I haven't been figuring in the effects of the transverse, longitudinal and compression waves on my shots. HOW could i be so dense? This revelation, coming on the first day of a new year, could hold all the keys to pool enlightenment.
This is a myth.in advice dr_dave said:
Starting with Willie Hoppe, Billiards Digest player of the century. He teaches cueball last in his book Billiards as it should be played.
An interesting aside I just ran across while looking for his words on final focus.
Okay on page 25 I find.Willie Hoppe said:
He goes on to say, "both methods are satisfactory. "Willie said:
So my quibble is with your words,
"Pretty much all top players", as Stephen Hendry who held the title of GOAT in snooker, has revealed that he and Ronnie O'Sullivan look at the cueball last. Ronnie is still in the process of snatching all time records from Stephen.
The video coverage of snooker provided currently often gives a good look at the eye pattern of players. There are many more that the video evidence seems to show cueball last. Starting with John Higgins and Mark Williams. The class of '92 .
I personally have experience both ways and achieved my earliest stellar performances looking at the object ball last. I have since gone to cueball at contact and experience better cueball control with equal or better shot making. My observation of Judd Trump, one of the greatest shot makers and object ball last is that fine cueball control is often his downfall.
Edit: I forgot the disclaimer. I came to this topic late and have only read page 1 of 6 so apologies if by chance this horse is already out of the stable.
GregThis is a myth.
Starting with Willie Hoppe, Billiards Digest player of the century. He teaches cueball last in his book Billiards as it should be played.
An interesting aside I just ran across while looking for his words on final focus.
Okay on page 25 I find.
He goes on to say, "both methods are satisfactory. "
So my quibble is with your words,
"Pretty much all top players", as Stephen Hendry who held the title of GOAT in snooker, has revealed that he and Ronnie O'Sullivan look at the cueball last. Ronnie is still in the process of snatching all time records from Stephen.
The video coverage of snooker provided currently often gives a good look at the eye pattern of players. There are many more that the video evidence seems to show cueball last. Starting with John Higgins and Mark Williams. The class of '92 .
I personally have experience both ways and achieved my earliest stellar performances looking at the object ball last. I have since gone to cueball at contact and experience better cueball control with equal or better shot making. My observation of Judd Trump, one of the greatest shot makers and object ball last is that fine cueball control is often his downfall.
Edit: I forgot the disclaimer. I came to this topic late and have only read page 1 of 6 so apologies if by chance this horse is already out of the stable.
With all due respect, I think you have to admit that it’s the minority of top players that look at cue ball Last.
So yes, you can find top players that advocate that and you are on that bandwagon so you tirelessly promote it.
Even though it is not done by the majority
JMHO
ICBW
Agreed. My choice of words could have been better. I should have said: Most top players focus on the OB target during the final stroke. Both methods can be mastered. The most important common element is still focus during the final stroke. Although, there are advantages to focussing on the OB last per the info here:
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The Greatest of All Times is definitely a minority category. The point I strive to make is that 3 in the Greatest of all times ranks is a majority in the category. Well I come up wih 5 that can wear the title.
Greatest titles are significant and Willie Mosconi is one and did say object ball last. Efren is also one and does indeed say he is object ball last. So either way can get you to the top. I just think instructors are doing students a dis service by steering them away from one method or the other. I assume that the ones that exclusively promote object ball last have little or no experience or understanding or possibly advantage of the other method.
I try to avoid painting with a broad brush and endeavor to speak of my experience and direct knowledge.
A final aside is that Judd Trump in interview, indicates that he started cueball last and was steered to object ball last by an early coach. I have to wonder........what if he followed the method of Stephen and Ronnie?
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Most top players are not GOATs.
I will wager that in the Snooker World with academies working with upcoming players you will notice a transition to the methods of Ronnie. Have you observed closely the eye pattern of Luca Brecel? Well this topic seems to ruffle feathers and produce opposite conclusions upon viewing the video evidence. I try to make a differentiation between what they say and what I think I see. So far in the ones that do speak of their method do align with my observations.
So for the "Majority" I will say, "The majority never make it to #1."
And some(a lot??) that may say one thing actually do another. I've watched a lot of snooker and pay close attention to the face-towards-camera shots. Virtually every player is looking at the OB when they pull the trigger. Yes Virginia, there is rapid back-n-forth eye movement but at THE moment they send it eyes are on the OB. The VAST majority of pool/snooker players are OB-last shooters.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I would have never believed how powerful CB last was/is until recently. Your fundamentals must be solid. You line up with your stance. Once you have your aim line pay attention to a few feather strokes at the CB. They tell you all you need to know. Are they straight as an arrow or is there wavering? Wavering means you're not aligned correctly. This will eliminate almost all weird chicken wing things, stroke not feeling correct, bad bridge hand placement, jumping up, etc. When it's right it's right and you can send it.
Once you get to where you can keep feather strokes dead nuts you don't have to look at the OB. If you're looking at the OB you can't assure your tip placement is dead nuts. This is a game where 1mm is the difference between making it/getting perfect shape or not. Now you might still see the OB in your peripheral but that's beside the point.
You know how there is the practice where you close your eyes on the shot? Well imagine if you were so sure of the OB you didn't have to look at it and could focus tight on tip placement. It's like sniper mode. It's preference in the end but if you've not tried it on the table and put some practice to it you might be missing out. It's pretty amazing.
Once you get to where you can keep feather strokes dead nuts you don't have to look at the OB. If you're looking at the OB you can't assure your tip placement is dead nuts. This is a game where 1mm is the difference between making it/getting perfect shape or not. Now you might still see the OB in your peripheral but that's beside the point.
You know how there is the practice where you close your eyes on the shot? Well imagine if you were so sure of the OB you didn't have to look at it and could focus tight on tip placement. It's like sniper mode. It's preference in the end but if you've not tried it on the table and put some practice to it you might be missing out. It's pretty amazing.
Seems like you like CB last but you are way in the minority. ONLY time i use it is when CB is on/real close to the cushion. Buddy showed me that yrs ago and it helps getting a pure strike when you only have half the ball to hit. I've tried playing that way and it was not good. Missed a BUNCH of shots and had no feel for speed/distance playing shape.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I know CB last is in the minority. I was OB last until about 2 months ago. It took a week or so of missing until it all clicked. IMHO it's preference but I would have never known if I hadn't put in about a week worth of practice. There are certain shots that I'll focus on OB last but they are now in the minority. Personally I think it has improved my feel too because with a basically fixed distance target (the end of your stick) the other stuff like speed control just comes easier. Again, not saying it's right or wrong but the results were a pleasant surprise.
I find your observations interesting and yet majority is an inaccurate description. IMHO
I see it differently. I have conducted significant unscientific personal observations studies. It's hard to elimination of prejudice and a desire to see what I believe. In order to survive it's an important skill. So I go into each study with a blank slate. I am confident that time will tell. Never hurts to be Ahead of time. Or The Maxority for that matter.
Hope you are well. ☺ And "come on Judd" is my favorite cheer.
I would love it if he can attain the title. He is oh so close. I thought I noticed an almost wistful expression when Judd was talking with Stephen Hendry. It made me think. His expression seemed to mean, "I wish I had known that then." When Stephen told him. "Cueball last" was his method. Stephen got a similar verbal response from the Canadian player that, rose the ranks in snooker. In his day.
Oh Gawd, I canhelp myself.
Look what majority rules can do to political.
Hope I don't get in trouble.
Look what majority rules can do to political.
Hope I don't get in trouble.
Is definitely worth a listen.
Any that aspire should study Stephen Hendry. Start here.
Okay it's at 11:34, but the whole thing is pure gold.
This is a rabbit we have ran a bunch of times. Back when I played daily I put a few weeks into looking at the cue ball last. Once aligned, it didn't matter where I looked. It did seem like looking further away was better when I needed a nice flowing stroke.
Having said these things, video makes a liar out of a lot of people. I don't mean that as harshly as it sounds. People think they do one thing when video reveals they are doing something else. Looking at video I found that the eyes of many of the "object ball last" people shifted to the cue ball as the stick started forward for the final time.
I will say this, some recommend the eye pattern be based on the practice stroke. Look at the cue ball back, forward look at the object ball. Too much movement to get the benefits of any focus in my opinion.
My focus might be from the cue ball to infinity, the thousand yard stare, when I am ready to shoot. It doesn't seem to matter once down on the shot.
Hu
Having said these things, video makes a liar out of a lot of people. I don't mean that as harshly as it sounds. People think they do one thing when video reveals they are doing something else. Looking at video I found that the eyes of many of the "object ball last" people shifted to the cue ball as the stick started forward for the final time.
I will say this, some recommend the eye pattern be based on the practice stroke. Look at the cue ball back, forward look at the object ball. Too much movement to get the benefits of any focus in my opinion.
My focus might be from the cue ball to infinity, the thousand yard stare, when I am ready to shoot. It doesn't seem to matter once down on the shot.
Hu
Just remember Hoppe’s foundation as a balkline/ free game player. Different game. Looking at 3 balls for a 2” shot. That game will test the opposite hand, masses different bridges a lot.This is a myth.
Starting with Willie Hoppe, Billiards Digest player of the century. He teaches cueball last in his book Billiards as it should be played.
An interesting aside I just ran across while looking for his words on final focus.
Okay on page 25 I find.
He goes on to say, "both methods are satisfactory. "
So my quibble is with your words,
"Pretty much all top players", as Stephen Hendry who held the title of GOAT in snooker, has revealed that he and Ronnie O'Sullivan look at the cueball last. Ronnie is still in the process of snatching all time records from Stephen.
The video coverage of snooker provided currently often gives a good look at the eye pattern of players. There are many more that the video evidence seems to show cueball last. Starting with John Higgins and Mark Williams. The class of '92 .
I personally have experience both ways and achieved my earliest stellar performances looking at the object ball last. I have since gone to cueball at contact and experience better cueball control with equal or better shot making. My observation of Judd Trump, one of the greatest shot makers and object ball last is that fine cueball control is often his downfall.
Edit: I forgot the disclaimer. I came to this topic late and have only read page 1 of 6 so apologies if by chance this horse is already out of the stable.
Yes, I know you are being sarcastic lolDamn, i knew it. I haven't been figuring in the effects of the transverse, longitudinal and compression waves on my shots. HOW could i be so dense? This revelation, coming on the first day of a new year, could hold all the keys to pool enlightenment.
But for others, they may have a hard time separating learning for the sake of learning, from the perception that they are being commanded to use that knowledge to make a change.
I.e, I am never going to need to know how to solve a differential equation in my life, this is stupid. Or, I hate cars, they are to hard to fix now. That is ego mixing with objectiveness. Good vs bad when those two concepts don’t exist in science.
Even if something isn’t applicable to that person, it may be nice to know. Then one can argue why they would care, or why are you even bringing it up if we can’t use it? But those arguments are separate from the validity of the data itself.
You can still hit those shots with a near-level cue with a high tip position. The real difficulty is highly-elevated-cue shots reaching over a ball or to jump. CB focus last can definitely help with shots like that. See: