Very slick. I like it...:smile:
Stuck tenon
- Thread starter SK Custom Cues
- Start date
Very slick. I like it...:smile:
Glad this was mentioned. I have a steel threader and tried it out on a 5/16th
tenon. The threader went on and just mowed a 16th off the tenon like a router and left me with a 1/4" tenon. I was wondering what the heck was going on.
tenon. The threader went on and just mowed a 16th off the tenon like a router and left me with a 1/4" tenon. I was wondering what the heck was going on.
dave sutton
Banned
not true. if done correctly they work fine. if your tenon is too big or not properly lubricated it tears the threads off.
atlas sells bees wax. thats what i use
atlas sells bees wax. thats what i use
Well, my experience with them has been poor. Even when everything goes 'right' the thread depth is very shallow. I tried both bees wax as well as paraffin.
Until I am up with live tooling, I will stick to single pointing the threads.:smile:
One idea I thought might work is to reinforce the threads with super glue while cutting. Take say 0.020 and then coat the threads with super glue and set it with the accelerator and then take your subsequent passes alternated with glue to leave a nice sharp fully formed thread.
The down-side is you are then relying on this glue to be the strength in the thread, and I'd rather rely on West System for that. So, I have not tried it.
Just throwing ideas out there that have crossed my mind...
Until I am up with live tooling, I will stick to single pointing the threads.:smile:
One idea I thought might work is to reinforce the threads with super glue while cutting. Take say 0.020 and then coat the threads with super glue and set it with the accelerator and then take your subsequent passes alternated with glue to leave a nice sharp fully formed thread.
The down-side is you are then relying on this glue to be the strength in the thread, and I'd rather rely on West System for that. So, I have not tried it.
Just throwing ideas out there that have crossed my mind...
dave sutton
Banned
th treadhaveto be functinal not perfect if you understand what i mean.
lets put it this way. some ferrules are done unthreaded and do not come off. not saying thats wrong but IMO threaded is better then not...
lets put it this way. some ferrules are done unthreaded and do not come off. not saying thats wrong but IMO threaded is better then not...
enco has a awsome thread cutter .carbide.
I understand that Dave, and agree a 'poorly' threaded tenon is better than an un-threaded tenon. However, if the thread depth on the wood is shallow, I believe the thread on the ferrule should also be shallow- a mating thread- so as to limit the void volume filled with epoxy. I'm not trying to say un-threaded is unacceptable, there have been a heck of a lot of unthreaded ferrules over the centuries.:smile:
All I'm saying is that given the choice, I prefer to have more thread depth as opposed to less.
Even when single pointing, some of the threads tear out. It's part of working with wood. Heck, even live tooling will sometimes have tear out.
All I'm saying is one should always try to achieve the best they can. And if you have the ability to run threads with your lathe, it is advisable to single point them rather than rely on a tenon threading tool. If you cannot cut threads with your lathe, that is another story, and in that case I'd personally probably just go to a grooved ferrule and slotted tenon and turn it as a press-fit with good epoxy and a lot of pressure until it was set; more-or-less exactly what you are saying if I'm understanding you right Dave.
PS I think we have gotten off topic a bit here, and I apologize for that!
Every one has their own way of doing things and assume theirs is the best way. Few people purposely build a bad cue knowing that it will fail so that they can sell another one. I, myself, seldom thread a ferrule or tenon. I said this before and I still believe that threading a tenon is nothing more than a manufacturing short cut that weakens the tenon making it easier to fail. By the use of threads the ferrule can be glued on and turned or put aside while the glue is still not set, releasing the machine to do another tenon. Cutting threads in a 5/16 ferrule you must first turn down to .280 to .285. Next threads are cut taking the minor down to less than .250 and probably down to around .230. This means that about 25% of the tenon is cut away. I guarantee all of my work for life. Not 30 days or 6 months but for as long as I live or the product survives. If a ferrule I put on a cue in the 60's came in with a loose ferrule today it would be repaired for free I don't care how many owners that it has went through. With this guarantee in place I can count on one hand the amount of ferrules I have replaced for free for being loose, and I've installed thousands of them. Now I have replaced a number of ferrules on others cues where the tenon has been broke off. I can't say for certain that being threaded caused these failures but, in my opinion, it had something to do with it.
Dick
Dick
I thread all my new shaft ferrules and prefer to have them capped. I had problems at first with the threader, but I made a shaft to chuck in the tailstock, and the threader fits on that. No slop or crossthreading. When I had problems with tearout, someone here told me to go to .280 for the tenon, and since then I haven't had a problem. I use wax also. I have found though, some shafts have less than quality maple, which results in crappier threads. I now usually coat heavily with CA, then do another pass of the cutter, then thread it. Much better results for me. I also leave the tenon at .312 at the point where it meets the full size shaft for about 1/8" to act as an alignment shoulder, which, IMO, helps a little in the strength dept. Haven't had a return yet in the 2 years I've been doing it this way (crossed fingers)
Dave
Dave
dave sutton
Banned
Dick I was thinking of you in my post. I'm not saying your way is wrong. Obv non have fail. For conversations sake how many threated ferrules has any of you guys fixed that failed. Inpersonally fixed zero. Just wondering what your basing your thoughts on. Not fighting or argueing just trying to learn new. I think it was you that convinced me to do uncapped and I love it!!!
I know I would never d. An ajoint without threads. I that makes sense
I know I would never d. An ajoint without threads. I that makes sense
As far as glue failures the only ones I have really seen are imported cues that have the plastic ferrules with little ribs that bite into the tenon as they are pressed on. I don't even know if they use glue, and the old fiber ferrules that McDermott used for years. They were partially threaded and it wasn't really the glue but more the ferrule as fiber ferrules would absorb moisture causing them to swell in girth and shrink in length until the bond would let go. I've probably replaced more than fifty tenons over the years where the ferrule and tenon broke off near the front of the shaft. I can't say for sure but I doubt that many of these broke from natural causes. They probably happened when the shaft was hit on the rail near the end of the shaft and the inertia on the ferrule caused from that action caused the tenon to break. I, of coarse, have no scientific knowledge or tests to prov this theory but that is just my opinion. Others have their own opinions and that is fine. As you know, this happens rarely so I don't really think it makes a whole lot of difference whether the ferrule is tapped or not. It is for this reason that I stated with my first sentence that: "Every one has their own way of doing things and assume theirs is the best way." The only reason I even made the post was that I was responding to the previous post that stated: "I understand that Dave, and agree a 'poorly' threaded tenon is better than an un-threaded tenon." as I, through years of experience, have not come to that conclusion and just don't believe that that is a fact but just an unproven opinion, the same as mine.
Dick
With the glue we have available, threaded tenons are more of a convenience than anything else.
With a tenon compression die, I can install a new ferrule in about 3 minutes.
If I'm doing a large tenon with no cap or threads, it takes at least 15 or 20.
Threads take a bit longer with a grinder, and it takes more material away if you don't make them bigger than 5/16ths, so if I do threads, I usually use the die.
With a tenon compression die, I can install a new ferrule in about 3 minutes.
If I'm doing a large tenon with no cap or threads, it takes at least 15 or 20.
Threads take a bit longer with a grinder, and it takes more material away if you don't make them bigger than 5/16ths, so if I do threads, I usually use the die.
dave sutton
Banned
ive considered trying lik a 3x8-16 or 10 thread for my ferrules. anyon doing this or any pros and cons is so?
I always choose a fine thread over a coarse thread. You have the mechanical advantage for more clamping force and the minor diameter is larger for more strength. Lately, I've been using 3/8-24 for my ferrule tenons with excellent results. I have used 3/8-16 with no problems & I believe Eric Crisp is happy with 3/8-10 threaded tenons. I suggest leaving a .200" - .300" long register diameter at the shoulder of your tenon (depending on the length of your ferrule).
more info HERE
dave sutton
Banned
thanks bob. i know thats how you do it. i immed pulled up your site after posting my last post. very informative
do you do i this way only bc of added stregnth only or does it change play also
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I love my 3/8-10 ferrules. I do mine with no cap, so they are through ferrules. I crank them on as tightly as I can utilizing robogrip pliers. I face the front & there's a full 5/16" of wood surface, surrounded by a melamine rim that the the tip glues to. At 13mm diameter with a 3/8-10 bore, the ferrule is very thin & virtually weightless. In fact, most materials are too weak & crack, which is why I have to use a very high grade melamine. The end result is the protection, aesthetics, & strength of a ferrule combined with the wood:leather, no added weight effect of ferruleless shafts. Essentially, it's having my cake & eating it too.
This is really great evolution of the technology.
However, for someone like me, who plays with and appreciates the 'feel' of the old-school cues, an inch of capped ivory with a 5/16 tenon is what I (and some others) like. I have no doubt your ferrule formula plays as well as any 'low deflection' shaft with the look of a classic shaft, but for die-hards (read: stubborn bastards) like me, we need a big honking chunk of ivory out front pointing the way.:wink:
Keep up the good work. You are certainly evolving the art of cue making and I feel more people will start following your lead as the years progress... My hat is off to you!