Stupid question on drawing the ball

Someone else may have given this advice that might have missed earlier in the thread.
One of the major techniques in the draw shot...all shots really...is NOT to "short stroke" it.

The vast majority of pros bring the ferrule ALL the way back into their bridge...some times the whole ferrule disappears.

"Short stroking" is the failure to do that and it is especially penalizing on a draw stroke where reaching maximum cue tip speed at impact is critical.

Regards,
Jim
 
I have to agree with AV84fun's above post. Taking the cue back farther creates more speed to draw with. I do think, however, that the more consistent you can keep your stroke, the better you will play.

I sometimes do this also when I attempt longer draw shots with a hard stroke. I know it comes from 2 things. 1 is dropping my elbow when I try to add power to the stroke. The second, and more common problem, is gripping the cue too tightly when I try to ramp up my stroke. This causes me to hit slightly off where I am aiming, and miscue at times, launching the ball up. Think about a relaxed stroke and grip, and I bet it will go away (as long as you can keep it that way).

One way to check what you are doing is take a triped ball, and use the bottom of the stripe as an aiming point, that should be max draw. Chalk up good, and execute the stroke. Look at where your chalk mark is to see where yo uare hitting the ball in relation to where you are aiming.
 
I don't force any student to change anything about their game. The way we present the pendilum stroke, and show students how to properly execute it usually has students excited about how much better they are able to perform using it.

I believe the pendilum stroke is virtually immune from flaws in design, although I agree it is not immune from flaws in application. It must be performed properly in order to be effective.

I would bet that 90% of the WPBA tournament winners in the last 5 years use the pendilum stroke exclusively.

I'm not trying to be difficult or argue with you. I just think that recommending an elbow drop prior to contact with the cue ball introduces a variable that makes stroking accurately and consistently more difficult for the vast majority of players. Ask anyone who has taken lessons from an SPF instructor if the pendilum stroke helped their game. I think most will have a positive reaction.
Steve
 
Taking the cue back farther creates more speed to draw with.
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At the expense of accuracy. And accuracy (being able to consistently hit lower on the cue ball) is even more important for getting the most out of your draw stroke. Hitting even a little lower on the cue ball creates much more spin - more than I'd expect from any reasonable amount of speed increase (I'm sure there's a formula for the relative effects).

I would concentrate first on accuracy.

pj
chgo
 
td873:
I do not recall stating or advocate introducing additional movement.
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A pendulum stroke moves only the forearm and elbow joint. Dropping the elbow moves forearm, upper arm, elbow joint and shoulder joint. How can dropping the elbow not involve additional movement?

pj
chgo
 
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pooltchr said:
[...]
I just think that recommending an elbow drop prior to contact with the cue ball introduces a variable that makes stroking accurately and consistently more difficult for the vast majority of players.
Click to expand...
I agree with you Steve.

Ask anyone who has taken lessons from an SPF instructor if the pendilum stroke helped their game. I think most will have a positive reaction.
Steve
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I just want to clarify something here, because I fear people will think the pendulum stroke is somehow synonymous with SPF.

Someone asked in another thread about who people would like to take a lesson from. A number of instructors got mentioned, including Stan Shuffett, Mark Wilson, Tony Robles, Joe Tucker, Jerry Breiseth, Jeff Carter, and many others.

I suspect any of these people, and also virtually any BCA instructor, would teach students the pendulum stroke. I suspect all of these people and virtually any BCA instructor would teach people to pause at the cueball after warm-up strokes in a "set" position. And I suspect this whole crew would recommend a simple pendulum motion from there--a backstroke followed by a smooth transition of some sort to the forward stroke all involving motion of the forearm pivoting about the elbow, iow, a pendulum stroke. This whole crowd likely would stress the importance of finishing properly, and likely would show the student there is a natural finish position of the tip on the cloth that results from this simple motion.

"SPF" instructors are a subset of instructors that trained under Randy G & crew. I have every reason to believe that's excellent training that produces many high-quality instructors.

But the basic motions that comprise the SPF scheme are common to many many instructors and in fact are the norm.

Do you disagree with this?
 
Easy

As long as you can hit dead center of the cue ball consistently, you won't have a problem miscuing when you are drawing. Most pro's are capable of hitting dead center at will, so for the draw shot, they hit dead center as low as they can go without scooping.

Also, the further you follow through and leave your shaft out there, the more draw you'll get, allowing to hit it less forcefully and allowing you to hit dead center better.

Christian
 
Patrick Johnson said:
A pendulum stroke moves only the forearm and elbow joint. Dropping the elbow moves forearm, upper arm, elbow joint and shoulder joint. How can dropping the elbow not involve additional movement?

me said:
I do not recall stating or advocate introducing additional movement.
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pj
chgo
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Up to your old tricks, I see. Your quesiton is rhetorical, and unrelated to your indicated quote.

As I have stated, many others have stated, and is generally accepted, a true pendulum has no additoinal movement. Dropping the elbow increases movement. There is no debate. Did you have a real question, or were you just trolling again? ;)

-td
 
td873 said:
Up to your old tricks, I see. Your quesiton is rhetorical, and unrelated to your indicated quote.

As I have stated, many others have stated, and is generally accepted, a true pendulum has no additoinal movement. Dropping the elbow increases movement. There is no debate. Did you have a real question, or were you just trolling again? ;)

-td
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Sorry, must have misinterpreted you. I thought you were advocating elbow drop.

pj
chgo
 
mikepage said:
I agree with you Steve.

I just want to clarify something here, because I fear people will think the pendulum stroke is somehow synonymous with SPF.

Someone asked in another thread about who people would like to take a lesson from. A number of instructors got mentioned, including Stan Shuffett, Mark Wilson, Tony Robles, Joe Tucker, Jerry Breiseth, Jeff Carter, and many others.

I suspect any of these people, and also virtually any BCA instructor, would teach students the pendulum stroke. I suspect all of these people and virtually any BCA instructor would teach people to pause at the cueball after warm-up strokes in a "set" position. And I suspect this whole crew would recommend a simple pendulum motion from there--a backstroke followed by a smooth transition of some sort to the forward stroke all involving motion of the forearm pivoting about the elbow, iow, a pendulum stroke. This whole crowd likely would stress the importance of finishing properly, and likely would show the student there is a natural finish position of the tip on the cloth that results from this simple motion.

"SPF" instructors are a subset of instructors that trained under Randy G & crew. I have every reason to believe that's excellent training that produces many high-quality instructors.

But the basic motions that comprise the SPF scheme are common to many many instructors and in fact are the norm.

Do you disagree with this?
Click to expand...
Mike,

As always, excellent post!

Many of the "SPF" instructors are excellent, but there are also many excellent "non-SPF" instructors. I have a list of many, with links, here:
Like you and Steve, I also think most of these instructors would advocate a pendulum stroke in general, but not for all.

FYI to others, a good summary of justifications and rationales for a non-elbow-drop pendulum stroke can be found here:
Regards,
Dave
 
mikepage said:
But the basic motions that comprise the SPF scheme are common to many many instructors and in fact are the norm.

Do you disagree with this?
Click to expand...
One comment that I believe have been glossed over is elbow drop (which is the subject of many threads and posts).

Specifically, SPF mandates no elbow drop. This is a rigid approximation of a simple pendulum, i.e., the fixed point (elbow) does not move. This is the key distinction with the SPF camp. Other instructors, do not apply the pendulum so rigidly. Allowing, teaching, illustrating, and/or recommending elbow drop. However, as you noted, the basic execution from set to/around contact is the same.

I believe the major point of distinction is "how to finish."

-td
 
cmsmith9 said:
As long as you can hit dead center of the cue ball consistently, you won't have a problem miscuing when you are drawing. Most pro's are capable of hitting dead center at will, so for the draw shot, they hit dead center as low as they can go without scooping.

Also, the further you follow through and leave your shaft out there, the more draw you'll get, allowing to hit it less forcefully and allowing you to hit dead center better.

Christian
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Sorry to have to disagree but....

Many pros use draw/english combinations routinely. But nevertheless, a miscue can happen at any point near the edge of the cb. Low, high, left or right makes no difference.

In other words, the player is equally likely to miscue with low center as low left or right if the cb is contacted outside the "no miscue zone."

In addition, the follow through has nothing to do with imparting spin on the cb since the cb leaves the tip in a millisecond.

There is no reason to use anything other than your normal follow through when shooting draw shots.

There is no question that some players, including well known pros DO extend their follow through on draw shots but doing so is a habit but that doesn't mean that doing so increases back spin.

Regards,
Jim
 
Let me throw this out there and see if I can get some feedback that will change my perception.

Regarding the follow through....(and this will be realy evident in the longer draw shots)

My observation of pros is that on the soft touch shots to normal shots the elbow drops just a little (if at all)...as the shot increases in power (and the stroke gets longer) the elbow drops a bit more...(I have even witnessed Allison drop her elbow as the power increases)

Part of this I think is determined by forearm length...A person with a longer forearm is going to need less elbow drop to complete a fluid longer stroke....(I fall into a catagory of short arms)

I relatate the cue motion to a car or truck going down the road...If the car is going X mph it will take Y feet to stop...(As X increases...so does Y)

In the stroke of a cue...if you are generating a longer backswing and generating more cue speed...it will take more distance after impact to stop the cue....

My perception (I should point out that much of this perception of stroke comes from the way I learned and taught putting in Golf) is that the followthrough should be a fairly equal distance as the backswing.....As you want to hit the ball longer (more power) you increase your back swing...your follow through will also naturally increase....(but you use the same tempo for both the longer and shorter shot or more or less power )..It should happen farily natrually.

Of course there is a limit to the added power where additional force will need to be applied other than just lengthening the stroke......(break speed)...but you get the idea.

What I find (in pool) is that as the power increases (backswing gets longer).... if I try to keep my elbow fixed (after impact) I run out of distance to stop the cue and I then need to apply "reverse muscles" (or at least feel like that is the case) to stop the cue...This (for me) leads to a very choppy stroke on anything more than short or soft or normal shots.

Again...(I think) that people that have longer arms have an advantage here because they will have longer before the arm folds into itself...(as the hand comes up to the arm pit)

That all being said....My stroke tends to start as a pendulum type stroke, but as the power increases and my forearm runs out of pendulum...Instead of "reversing the muscles" to stop the forward momentum of the cue...I allow the elbow to now drop or "collapse" a bit as the cue is decelerating to a stop.


Anyway...that is just my perception of things.... (currently)....but I am open to suggestions......:)
 
IMO, sounds like your tip is hitting the felt first. Make sure you are hitting the cueball where you intend too, going felt first will lift the cueball in the air.
 
BRKNRUN said:
Let me throw this out there and see if I can get some feedback that will change my perception.

Regarding the follow through....(and this will be realy evident in the longer draw shots)

My observation of pros is that on the soft touch shots to normal shots the elbow drops just a little (if at all)...as the shot increases in power (and the stroke gets longer) the elbow drops a bit more...(I have even witnessed Allison drop her elbow as the power increases)
Part of this I think is determined by forearm length...A person with a longer forearm is going to need less elbow drop to complete a fluid longer stroke....(I fall into a catagory of short arms)

I relatate the cue motion to a car or truck going down the road...If the car is going X mph it will take Y feet to stop...(As X increases...so does Y)
In the stroke of a cue...if you are generating a longer backswing and generating more cue speed...it will take more distance after impact to stop the cue....

My perception (I should point out that much of this perception of stroke comes from the way I learned and taught putting in Golf) is that the followthrough should be a fairly equal distance as the backswing.....As you want to hit the ball longer (more power) you increase your back swing...your follow through will also naturally increase....(but you use the same tempo for both the longer and shorter shot or more or less power )..It should happen farily natrually.

Of course there is a limit to the added power where additional force will need to be applied other than just lengthening the stroke......(break speed)...but you get the idea.

What I find (in pool) is that as the power increases (backswing gets longer).... if I try to keep my elbow fixed (after impact) I run out of distance to stop the cue and I then need to apply "reverse muscles" (or at least feel like that is the case) to stop the cue...This (for me) leads to a very choppy stroke on anything more than short or soft or normal shots.

Again...(I think) that people that have longer arms have an advantage here because they will have longer before the arm folds into itself...(as the hand comes up to the arm pit)

That all being said....My stroke tends to start as a pendulum type stroke, but as the power increases and my forearm runs out of pendulum...Instead of "reversing the muscles" to stop the forward momentum of the cue...I allow the elbow to now drop or "collapse" a bit as the cue is decelerating to a stop.


Anyway...that is just my perception of things.... (currently)....but I am open to suggestions......:)
Click to expand...

You raise several interesting points.

I too have seen Allison drop her elbow but VERY rarely. Of every 100 shots across all speed ranges, I think she might do it 2-3 times and I think she would agree that doing so was something of an error on her part.

Re: your truck stopping analogy, there is a HUGE difference. If a truck ran into something that weighed about 1/3 as much as the truck, it would stop a hell of a lot more quickly than it otherwise would! (-:

Studies have shown a substantial deceleration of cue speed upon CB contact and to accomplish the longer-than-normal follow thru distance, the shooter has to ADD muscle power to reaccelerate the cue OR...just accomplish a pointless pushing forward of the cue.

The goal in a draw stroke is to accelerate the cue to a maximum speed (for a power draw) BEFORE cb impact at which point...the deed is done.

That acceleration CAN be (but many of us DON'T) accomplish that max acceleration prior to cb impact with zero increase in the follow thru distance.

Scott Lee states that his break has been clocked at 20 mph while ending his stroke in his normal "home position."

In a lesson with him, we measured the number of rails (up and down) I got with my previously normal break stroke...featuring a LONG follow thru...vs. using my normal length....Result? Almost identical.

"What I find (in pool) is that as the power increases (backswing gets longer).... "

I would state that in reverse...i.e. as the backstroke gets longer, power increases. That is because we need some DISTANCE in order to achieve maximum speed. Some are MUCH better than others in accomplishing max speed over a given distance. That (among other things) is what allows small, non-muscular people like Alex and Busta to achieve such explosive breaks. SVB too. He has that seemingly passive break stroke...using his playing cue...and yet he busts them up big time.

Interesting discussion.

Thanks,
Jim
 
mikepage said:
"SPF" instructors are a subset of instructors that trained under Randy G & crew. I have every reason to believe that's excellent training that produces many high-quality instructors.

But the basic motions that comprise the SPF scheme are common to many many instructors and in fact are the norm.

Do you disagree with this?
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Mike,
You are correct. There are many great instructors who are not in the SPF family.
My biggist criticism of the BCA program is there is no set curriculum for BCA instructors to follow. Once an instructor becomes BCA recognized, they are free to teach whatever they want, whenever they want, and wherever they want. Most of them I have had contact with do a good job of teaching, and the vast majority do teach a pendilum stroke.
The SPF group is expected to adhere to the program outlined by CueTec. Randy and others have spent years developing a very successful curriculum that addresses physical, mental, and physiological aspects of the game, and put together a series of workshops that addresses all of these factors.
This does not mean that any other BCA instructor isn't doing the exact same thing. Some do, and some don't. And every instructor I have met seems to have the same desire to help their students.
I will have the chance to spend a couple of days with Mark Wilson next month. I hope we can both pick up ideas from each other. I strongly suspect you and I would find many similiarities in the things we teach.
It's all about making our students better.
Steve
 
pooltchr said:
... My biggest criticism of the BCA program is there is no set curriculum for BCA instructors to follow. ...
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The BCA Instructor Program had an Instructors Manual. Didn't you use that during your training? It is unfortunate that the plan to improve and revise the Manual was never carried through. The SFBA sent in additional material and it seems to have disappeared into a black hole. The BCA doesn't even offer copies of the last version of the Manual any more.

As for having a single curriculum, who would set it? Some BCA instructors teach stuff that makes me grind my teeth. If they were to set it, I'd leave.
 
dr_dave said:
I think it is the other way around: a miscue causes the cue tip to hit the table. Hitting the table first would also cause a miscue, but I don't think this is very common (with a decent player anyway). See my July '06 article for more info.

Regards,
Dave
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Dave,
I don't care how many articles you have written. The chalk mark on the paper 1/2" in front of the cue ball does not lie. Please try this before knocking it, you might actually learn something new today. :D

Signed,
A Decent Player
 
Bob...Our SPF group has developed it's own 'instructor manual', which covers, in great detail, all aspects of how to learn, develop, and apply, an accurate and repeatable setup and delivery process (which is called a pre-shot routine, and which is only part of the overall SOP, or Standard Operating Procedure, that we utilize to develop and refine our process of "playing pool"). Along with this, are other workshops that address many other issues, including physical limitations, mechanical imperfections (like elbow drop, the poke, and jerking the cue...among other things that rob the student of consistency and accuracy), and psychological implications, that result in poor decision making (choke syndromes, etc.). The SPF instructor manual is in a continual state of being revised and rewritten, to include new and/or better interpretations of the principles we teach, and ask our instructors to follow. The BCA administration, at large, has no interest in this process, which is why we have spent the time, money and effort to create a quality teaching tool...much like you have done the same, for your own 'program'.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Bob Jewett said:
The BCA Instructor Program had an Instructors Manual. Didn't you use that during your training? It is unfortunate that the plan to improve and revise the Manual was never carried through. The SFBA sent in additional material and it seems to have disappeared into a black hole. The BCA doesn't even offer copies of the last version of the Manual any more.

As for having a single curriculum, who would set it? Some BCA instructors teach stuff that makes me grind my teeth. If they were to set it, I'd leave.
Click to expand...
 
table first "scoop" shot

Sporto said:
Dave,
I don't care how many articles you have written. The chalk mark on the paper 1/2" in front of the cue ball does not lie. Please try this before knocking it, you might actually learn something new today. :D

Signed,
A Decent Player
Click to expand...
I didn't mean to imply you weren't a decent player. Sorry about that. I agree if you hit the table before the CB, you will get a miscue and a "scoop" shot. However, if a person hits the table before the ball, he or she is probably aiming too low and/or dropping the tip during the stroke (possibly from tightening the grip during the stroke). Now, as I wrote before, if you hit the ball first and have a miscue, the tip will still hit the table about 1/2" in front of the CB resting point on the cloth. I was assuming you meant 1/2" in front of the leading edge of the ball. Excuse me if I was wrong.

Regards,
Dave
 
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