Stupid question on drawing the ball

Tom...While you are correct that SPF instructors do not advocate, or recommend any elbow drop, the real critical issue, for those players that do drop the elbow, is how much, and when does it happen. If if happens before, or at contact, it can result in small errors in aim vs. actual contact area with the CB (not striking the CB exactly where you think or believe you're aiming). More important, imo, is that the pendulum swing is effective, accurate, repeatable, and allows for a setup and delivery process that creates a measurable result, that does not change with changes in stroke speed or tip position. Neither does it change with adjustments to bridge length (as long as the proper adjustment of the grip position is also applied). The benefit here is that the student can SEE for themselves how the stroke is the same for any shot (even the break shot).

Dropping the elbow does not provide any substancial benefit to the outcome of the shot, or the resulting "action" on the CB afterwards. For the majority of players (expert or pro) that have an elbow drop, it happens AFTER contact with the CB, and as such, does not contribute to any potential error in contact with the CB (but since it provides no positive benefit, why do it at all?). However, for the majority of amateur players, the drop comes before, or as they contact the CB, and can result in slight (or exxagerated) errors in where the tip contacts the CB. This is the principle reason why we do not have our students 'experiment' with an elbow drop. It provides for an inconsistent result, at best.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

td873 said:
One comment that I believe have been glossed over is elbow drop (which is the subject of many threads and posts).

Specifically, SPF mandates no elbow drop. This is a rigid approximation of a simple pendulum, i.e., the fixed point (elbow) does not move. This is the key distinction with the SPF camp. Other instructors, do not apply the pendulum so rigidly. Allowing, teaching, illustrating, and/or recommending elbow drop. However, as you noted, the basic execution from set to/around contact is the same.

I believe the major point of distinction is "how to finish."

-td
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draw, scoop, miscue, cue tip hitting table

Sporto said:
The chalk mark on the paper 1/2" in front of the cue ball does not lie.
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FYI, HSV B.1 and HSV B.2 clearly chow cue tip and CB reaction for various draw, scoop, and miscue shots (in super slow motion, with narration). Even with a well executed draw shot, with a near level cue and no miscue, the cue tip gets slammed into the cloth after contact and hits the table well in front of the original CB resting point.

Regards,
Dave
 
Sporto said:
Dave,
I don't care how many articles you have written. The chalk mark on the paper 1/2" in front of the cue ball does not lie. Please try this before knocking it, you might actually learn something new today. :D

Signed,
A Decent Player
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He didn't say this doesn't happen; he said it's not what usually happens. Maybe we could all stand to learn something new today.

pj
chgo
 
Bump for Mr Jewett so he can let me know what the small shiney mark on my tip means. By the way, I played last night with a Predator Z shaft and drew the ball pretty well. I am not sure if it was the smaller shaft or from reading some of these replies, but I was much better last night.
 
metallicane said:
a small bare mark on the cue tip surrounded by chalk.
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That would be a miscue. It comes from not enough chalk, a tip that doesn't hold chalk, or a tip-ball contact too far from center. It will make the cue ball jump on draw shots. No one responding here can be sure of the cause.

Miscues are not really due to a jerky, jabby, swervy or inaccurate stroke except that such a stroke may cause you to hit the cue ball too far from center.

Most players below a certain level -- we aren't sure what your level is -- don't know how to chalk. The main thing to remember is that every time you are going to spin the cue ball, you have to look at your tip to see if you have chalked it. The coating of chalk has to be complete and without lumps.
 
Sporto said:
Miscues on hard draws shots frequently occur because the tip actually hits the table first and then glances up underneath the cue ball and sending it airborne.

Place a piece of paper on the table under your bridge hand so the edge of the paper meets where the cue ball rests on the table. Take some draw shots, if you jump one you will most likely see that your tip hit the paper well short of the cue ball.
Dave,
I don't care how many articles you have written. The chalk mark on the paper 1/2" in front of the cue ball does not lie. Please try this before knocking it, you might actually learn something new today. :D

Signed,
A Decent Player
Click to expand...

Your theory is completely wrong. No player who has a clue about how to draw a cue ball...and who is reasonably sober, is ever going to contact the table "1/2 in. in front of the cue ball."

The bottom of the cue tip when it strikes the cb at the lower limit beyond which miscues are likely is still a good 1/4 above the surface of the table.

Anyone contacting the table first either has no idea where that lower limit is or has a highly inferior stroke.

If you have misstated your own theory and actually mean 1/2 in. in front of where the cb sits on the table, you are still wrong. Any standard diameter cue tip cannot get closer to the table contact point than about 3/4 inch without contacting the ball first.

The "shot" you describe is an illegal scoop shot that would only be played by cheats, drunks and other objectionable types.

(-:

Jim
 
Bob Jewett said:
That would be a miscue. It comes from not enough chalk, a tip that doesn't hold chalk, or a tip-ball contact too far from center. It will make the cue ball jump on draw shots. No one responding here can be sure of the cause.

Miscues are not really due to a jerky, jabby, swervy or inaccurate stroke except that such a stroke may cause you to hit the cue ball too far from center.
Most players below a certain level -- we aren't sure what your level is -- don't know how to chalk. The main thing to remember is that every time you are going to spin the cue ball, you have to look at your tip to see if you have chalked it. The coating of chalk has to be complete and without lumps.
Click to expand...

I understand your point Bob...i.e. that the ACTUAL cause of miscues is the tip contacting the cb too low and/or without a properly chalked cue.

But jerky, jabby, swervy or inaccuracte strokes are the PROCURING cause of the miscue.

Procuring Cause (often but not exclusively used in real estate transactions)

"The proximate cause; the cause originating a series of events which, without break in their continuity, result in the accomplishment of the prime object. "

So, the abhorent strokes you mention certainly are the cause that originates a series of events that lead to the miscue.

I mention this not to argue with your physically correct statement but rather to point out that strokes as you mentioned clearly can and do LEAD to miscues.

Regards,
Jim
 
Patrick Johnson said:
pj
chgo
......
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Thanks for that. You might not have noticed that I bolded the entire sentence...including that part that you highlighted in red. I felt there was something of a contradiction there and merely wanted to point out that such strokes do lead to miscuing.

Jim
 
av84fun said:
Thanks for that. You might not have noticed that I bolded the entire sentence...including that part that you highlighted in red. I felt there was something of a contradiction there and merely wanted to point out that such strokes do lead to miscuing.

Jim
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I think Jewett what is trying to point out that even a good stroke can lead to a miscue if you hit way off center, you forgot to chalk, or the tip is bad.
 
Last edited:
av84fun said:
Your theory is completely wrong. No player who has a clue about how to draw a cue ball...and who is reasonably sober, is ever going to contact the table "1/2 in. in front of the cue ball."

The bottom of the cue tip when it strikes the cb at the lower limit beyond which miscues are likely is still a good 1/4 above the surface of the table.

Anyone contacting the table first either has no idea where that lower limit is or has a highly inferior stroke.[...]\
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I have to agree here. Hitting the table first is about like throwing a pitch that goes behind the batter.
 
table-first "wild pitch" draw shot

mikepage said:
I have to agree here. Hitting the table first is about like throwing a pitch that goes behind the batter.
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I agree also. If people disagree, they can see illustrations and detailed explanations in my July '06 article.

Regards,
Dave
 
crosseyedjoe said:
I think Jewett what is trying to point out that even a good stroke can lead to a miscue if you hit way off center, you forgot to chalk, or the tip is bad.
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Of course. I was just nit picking I guess re: the CAUSES of miscues and attempting to emphasize that a pure stroke will reduce them and sloppy strokes will increase them.

When a guy jumps off a 20 story building, the act of jumping isn't listed as the cause of death. I know it ain't the fall...it's the sudden stop...but the jump certainly was the essential REASON the death occurred.

Regards,
Jim
 
Bob Jewett said:
That would be a miscue. It comes from not enough chalk, a tip that doesn't hold chalk, or a tip-ball contact too far from center. It will make the cue ball jump on draw shots. No one responding here can be sure of the cause.

Miscues are not really due to a jerky, jabby, swervy or inaccurate stroke except that such a stroke may cause you to hit the cue ball too far from center.

Most players below a certain level -- we aren't sure what your level is -- don't know how to chalk. The main thing to remember is that every time you are going to spin the cue ball, you have to look at your tip to see if you have chalked it. The coating of chalk has to be complete and without lumps.
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Thanks for the help. I always look at my tip after I chalk to make sure the tip is fully covered. The shape is a dime radius and I always check that as well. I guess I am hitting the ball too far from center. How does someone like Mike Massey get that much juice on the ball?
 
power draw

metallicane said:
How does someone like Mike Massey get that much juice on the ball?
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The only way to get extreme power draw is to hit the ball low with lots of stick speed. In Mike's case, it helps that he has unusual brute strength. For mere mortals, it helps to:
  • Keep the grip relaxed.
  • Use a longer bridge length for more power (with smooth, non jerky acceleration).
  • Make sure you are not dropping or raising your elbow before tip contact to get good tip contact point accuracy and consistency. You can use a ball with markings (e.g., Jim Rempe ball, or a striped ball) to check where your chalk mark is after the shot.
  • Make sure your stroke fundamentals are solid.
  • In your next life, be born with lots of fast-twitch muscle fibers that allow you to generate more speed over a shorter distance.
  • Work out your biceps and pectorals at the gym.
FYI, I have more advice and links here:
Happy power drawing,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
The only way to get extreme power draw is to hit the ball low with lots of stick speed. In Mike's case, it helps that he has unusual brute strength. For mere mortals, it helps to:
  • Keep the grip relaxed.
  • Use a longer bridge length for more power (with smooth, non jerky acceleration).
  • Make sure you are not dropping or raising your elbow before tip contact to get good tip contact point accuracy and consistency. You can use a ball with markings (e.g., Jim Rempe ball, or a striped ball) to check where your chalk mark is after the shot.
  • Make sure your stroke fundamentals are solid.
  • In your next life, be born with lots of fast-twitch muscle fibers that allow you to generate more speed over a shorter distance.
  • Work out your biceps and pectorals at the gym.
FYI, I have more advice and links here:
Happy power drawing,
Dave
Click to expand...

Good tips, Dave. I'd also add:
  • Set up with your tip at the CB when your forearm is perpendicular (may require moving grip hand back).
pj
chgo
 
weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

metallicane said:
How does someone like Mike Massey get that much juice on the ball?
Click to expand...

Hit the right spot on the ball and stroke through it.
The really fun part is learning how to draw the ball exactly
as much as you need. Be it, 6 inches or 6 feet and be able
to hit your target spot consistently.
Learning how to draw the ball properly can be learned in a few minutes.
Learning to master the draw can take much longer.
FWIW, the z shaft is a pretty good crutch but won't increase
your accuracy. I know people who can't draw the ball without
it. They usually over draw with it.
To master it, you must have an accurate, repeatable stroke.
Video analysis will show you exactly what you're doing wrong.
-cOOp
 
the real issue behind drawing a cueball is to keep the cue level and the rear hand relaxed. The reason for "launching" a cue is normally because your pendelum stroke makes the tip move downward, especially if you choke up on the cue. When the hand is gripped too tightly and you don't stroke straight, the cue miscues downward and into the cloth, sending the cue upward. So, move your hand back, loosen the grip and try to visualize stroking straight through the shot and everything will be fine. There no such thing as "too low" an aim point. But remember, you have to stroke, not poke, even when using a punch stroke.

tim
 
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