Stupid Question?

Brickman

Brickman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was wondering what you cue makers use to measure the " Millimeters " of the shaft.

I have a dial caliper but it is in thousanths, up to 6 inches, am I missing the MM measurement or do you guys use a different tool, or do you just use a conversion rate to go from Thousandths?

I know most of this stuff is Elementary to you guys but if you could help I would really appreciate it.

And remeber ....I have alot more questions to ask, and if you want to be apart of me becoming a great cuemaker , you need to get in here early:cool: :D :D :D :D

THANKS GUYS
 
For best results, get a quality digital caliper that measures in millimeters.

Conversions aren't bad going from mm to inches, but don't work well going the other way, since you can't manufacture more precision than you had with the original measurement.

0.001 inches really means somewhere between 0.0005 inches and 0.0014 inches. That means a reading of 0.001 inches could mean 0.013 mm, or it could mean 0.036 mm, or anywhere in between. With an original measurement in thousandths of an inch, you can only convert to the nearest (approximately) 40th of a millimeter.
 
Like Joey said, a cheap digital caliper. I have one that can switch back and forth between standard and metric. I bought it off ebay for $30. Add that to your good quality dial Mitutoyo or Starrett.
Kelly
 
Harborfreight has them for $15. I have had one for three years and it is still accurate. I know I am amazed too. I won't tell you how much I spent on my good one but you could buy 20 or 30 of the cheapies for the same price. Chris.
 
The digital calibers are probably the easiest way to convert, and as mentioned already you can find deals on them at the import tool places like HF. Sometimes you can catch them on sale and get them really cheap.

You could also get a drill gauge. It's nothing more then a flat piece of plastic with holes in It. one side has fractional, and the other side shows the metric equivilent of It. It's not always going to give you an exact size as the calibers will though, and mine only go up in hole size but so far. May be nice to have for sizing drill bits though, altough the calibers will do the same thing.

Greg C
 
Chris said:
For best results, get a quality digital caliper that measures in millimeters.

Conversions aren't bad going from mm to inches, but don't work well going the other way, since you can't manufacture more precision than you had with the original measurement.

0.001 inches really means somewhere between 0.0005 inches and 0.0014 inches. That means a reading of 0.001 inches could mean 0.013 mm, or it could mean 0.036 mm, or anywhere in between. With an original measurement in thousandths of an inch, you can only convert to the nearest (approximately) 40th of a millimeter.
Click to expand...

Do you think it's going to really matter between 13.013 mm and 13.036 mm?! I mean twenty-three thousandths of a millimeter is pretty damned small...lol!
 
zeeder said:
Do you think it's going to really matter between 13.013 mm and 13.036 mm?! I mean twenty-three thousandths of a millimeter is pretty damned small...lol!
Click to expand...
Unless someone has a set of calipers handy, it's difficult to realize how small that is. Just for reference, a human hair is approx .05mm.

TellsItLikeItIs <--With one less grey hair on his head :)
 
Brickman said:
I was wondering what you cue makers use to measure the " Millimeters " of the shaft.

I have a dial caliper but it is in thousanths, up to 6 inches, am I missing the MM measurement or do you guys use a different tool, or do you just use a conversion rate to go from Thousandths?

I know most of this stuff is Elementary to you guys but if you could help I would really appreciate it.

And remeber ....I have alot more questions to ask, and if you want to be apart of me becoming a great cuemaker , you need to get in here early:cool: :D :D :D :D

THANKS GUYS
Click to expand...
I prefer digital calipers with both metric/standard readout & the "zero" function. When I'm cutting a ferrule to size, I set the calipers to the size I want the ferrule to be, zero the reading, then measure the ferrule. This tells me how much I need to take off, rather than what size it currently is.
 
TellsItLikeItIs said:
I prefer digital calipers with both metric/standard readout & the "zero" function. When I'm cutting a ferrule to size, I set the calipers to the size I want the ferrule to be, zero the reading, then measure the ferrule. This tells me how much I need to take off, rather than what size it currently is.
Click to expand...

As cheap as Digital calipers are these days I can't believe anyone would use anything else. When they first came out about 15 or so years ago they were a little pricey but now you can buy them for the price of lunch and they are far more accurite than any cue maker needs. I had 8 digital calipers and yesterday I bought two more. Anywhere in my shop where measurements need taken there is a caliper sitting there. I bought two yesterday from H/F that have large readings, much easier to see by the way, for 14.95 each and they have the same readings as my 200.00 set of Mitutoyas. They read down to hundreds of a MM or half 10,000ths. The thing with digital calipers is to install good batteries as the Chinese ones that come with them don't last long but once energizer or such are installed they last quite a while.

Dick
 
zeeder said:
Do you think it's going to really matter between 13.013 mm and 13.036 mm?! I mean twenty-three thousandths of a millimeter is pretty damned small...lol!
Click to expand...

Twenty-three thousandths of a millimeter is pretty small, I agree. It is still an unnecessary margin of error that can easily be avoided.

I used thousandths of an inch as an example. If one starts with hundredths of an inch, then the potential error is almost a quarter of a millimeter.

My point was that converting from inches to millimeters is not the best way to get a millimeter measurement. A digital metric caliper can offer much more precision.
 
new math?

Chris said:
For best results, get a quality digital caliper that measures in millimeters.

Conversions aren't bad going from mm to inches, but don't work well going the other way, since you can't manufacture more precision than you had with the original measurement.

0.001 inches really means somewhere between 0.0005 inches and 0.0014 inches. That means a reading of 0.001 inches could mean 0.013 mm, or it could mean 0.036 mm, or anywhere in between. With an original measurement in thousandths of an inch, you can only convert to the nearest (approximately) 40th of a millimeter.
Click to expand...

Why do you feel converting from metric to decimal works "better"
than the other way around?

the conversion is based on the relationship:

1 inch = 25.39MM

using the 99 cent calculator I bought at the dollar store, 8 digit display,
I convert 13.11 MM to decimal, then back to MM
the result:
13.109999MM

moving from numbers on paper to shafts of wood,
my calipers display to .0005<half a thou or 5 tenths in machinists-speak>
or .01 MM in metric - the actual precision of the device is the same,
only the displayed value varies, and that is due to how many decimal
places<aka significant digits>are carried.

HTH
Dale
 
dials are fine

Brickman said:
I was wondering what you cue makers use to measure the " Millimeters " of the shaft.

I have a dial caliper but it is in thousanths, up to 6 inches, am I missing the MM measurement or do you guys use a different tool, or do you just use a conversion rate to go from Thousandths?

I know most of this stuff is Elementary to you guys but if you could help I would really appreciate it.

And remeber ....I have alot more questions to ask, and if you want to be apart of me becoming a great cuemaker , you need to get in here early:cool: :D :D :D :D

THANKS GUYS
Click to expand...

I have a digital caliper, 3 actually, and 2 dial versions, the only real advantage of the digitals
is they are handier - converting to Millimeters is simple using a calculator
you can get an accuracy well beyound any requirement you
can hold in anything made of wood

Dale
 
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pdcue said:
Why do you feel converting from metric to decimal works "better"
than the other way around?

the conversion is based on the relationship:

1 inch = 25.39MM

using the 99 cent calculator I bought at the dollar store, 8 digit display,
I convert 13.11 MM to decimal, then back to MM
the result:
13.109999MM

moving from numbers on paper to shafts of wood,
my calipers display to .0005<half a thou or 5 tenths in machinists-speak>
or .01 MM in metric - the actual precision of the device is the same,
only the displayed value varies, and that is due to how many decimal
places<aka significant digits>are carried.

HTH
Dale
Click to expand...

Results from a calculator can be very misleading.

A calculator believes 13 = 13.0 = 13.00 = 13.000

This is not actually the case.

13 = anything between 12.5 and 13.4

13.0 = anything between 12.95 and 13.04

13.00 = anything between 12.995 and 13.004

On any measuring device, whether digital or analog, the last digit is an estimate. Where that last digit is tells us the precision of the measurement. For example, 13.00 mm is a more precise measurement than 13.0 mm, which is more precise than 13 mm.

Since millimeters are much smaller than an inch (less than a tenth as long), you can convert from a millimeter measurement to an inch measurement without losing precision.

For more information, see Significant Figures and accuracy and precision.
 
Chris said:
Results from a calculator can be very misleading.

A calculator believes 13 = 13.0 = 13.00 = 13.000

This is not actually the case.

13 = anything between 12.5 and 13.4

13.0 = anything between 12.95 and 13.04

13.00 = anything between 12.995 and 13.004

On any measuring device, whether digital or analog, the last digit is an estimate. Where that last digit is tells us the precision of the measurement. For example, 13.00 mm is a more precise measurement than 13.0 mm, which is more precise than 13 mm.

Since millimeters are much smaller than an inch (less than a tenth as long), you can convert from a millimeter measurement to an inch measurement without losing precision.

For more information, see Significant Figures and accuracy and precision.
Click to expand...

I want to understand, but I took 13 x 33 & got 429
I took 13.0 x 33 & got 429
I took 13. 00000 x 33 & got 429
What am I missing...JER
 
Leanardo must be weeping

Chris said:
Results from a calculator can be very misleading.

A calculator believes 13 = 13.0 = 13.00 = 13.000

This is not actually the case.

13 = anything between 12.5 and 13.4

13.0 = anything between 12.95 and 13.04

13.00 = anything between 12.995 and 13.004

On any measuring device, whether digital or analog, the last digit is an estimate. Where that last digit is tells us the precision of the measurement. For example, 13.00 mm is a more precise measurement than 13.0 mm, which is more precise than 13 mm.

Since millimeters are much smaller than an inch (less than a tenth as long), you can convert from a millimeter measurement to an inch measurement without losing precision.

For more information, see Significant Figures and accuracy and precision.
Click to expand...

Which part of 8 digits has you confused?
the way you quote the idea of sig digits, one
would think you might understand at least
some part of it

anyone who slogged thru high school algebra
learned about rounding errors

do some test calculations, then you too
will understand what everybody else in this
thread does

you can convert from metric to decimal and/or
decimal to metric, it doesn't matter which,
with an accuracy well beyound any humanly
possible to measure with any device short
of an electron microscope

Did I mention the it's made of wood part? I forget

HTH
Dale
 
pdcue said:
Which part of 8 digits has you confused?
the way you quote the idea of sig digits, one
would think you might understand at least
some part of it

anyone who slogged thru high school algebra
learned about rounding errors

do some test calculations, then you too
will understand what everybody else in this
thread does

you can convert from metric to decimal and/or
decimal to metric, it doesn't matter which,
with an accuracy well beyound any humanly
possible to measure with any device short
of an electron microscope

Did I mention the it's made of wood part? I forget

HTH
Dale
Click to expand...

Perhaps it is not me who does not understand. :) I will try to explain better.

1/1000 of an inch is more than two and a half times larger than 1/100 of a millimeter. That means a measurement to the nearest one hundredth of a millimeter is over two and a half times more precise than a measurement to the nearest 1/1000 of an inch.

This means you can take a measurement of 13.03 mm and convert it to inches while maintaining the same precision and accuracy you would have had if you had taken the measurement in inches to start with. However, if you convert from thousandths of an inch to millimeters, your answer is only precise to the nearest fortieth of a millimeter, rounded to the nearest hundredth of a millimeter, which is less precise than if you had originally taken the measurement in millimeters.

To test this with your calculator, convert 0.001 inches and 0.002 inches to millimeters. Notice that the difference between 0.001 inches and 0.002 inches is just over 1/40th of a millimeter (about 0.0254 mm) The difference between .002 inches and .003 inches is about the same, as is the difference between 0.003 inches and 0.004 inches, and so on. This incremental difference is larger than the incremental difference of a metric caliper that reads to the nearest 1/100 of a millimeter so it is less precise than if you had originally taken the measurement with such a metric caliper.

Now convert 0.01 millimeters and 0.02 millimeters each to inches. Notice the difference is about 0.00039 inches, or about 1/2540 of an inch. This incremental difference is smaller than the smallest incremental difference obtainable with a caliper that only reads to the nearest 1/1000 of an inch. Even after rounding to the nearest 1/1000 of an inch, the result is still just as precise as it could be had the measurement been initially taken with caliper measuring in thousandths of an inch.

Thus it is better to take your measurements in millimeters with an accurate, quality metric caliper, since the same number of significant figures offers more precision.

I'm not a cue maker, but I'm certainly no stranger to taking accurate, precise measurements. I know many cue makers are perfectionists. I thought maybe some of those perfectionists, possibly including the original poster, might appreciate the information. I'm sorry I didn't state my point clearly enough to be understood the first time. I hope this is better. :)
 
Last edited:
Chris said:
Perhaps it is not me who does not understand. :) I will try to explain better.

1/1000 of an inch is more than two and a half times larger than 1/100 of a millimeter. That means a measurement to the nearest one hundredth of a millimeter is over two and a half times more precise than a measurement to the nearest 1/1000 of an inch.

This means you can take a measurement of 13.03 mm and convert it to inches while maintaining the same precision and accuracy you would have had if you had taken the measurement in inches to start with. However, if you convert from thousandths of an inch to millimeters, your answer is only precise to the nearest fortieth of a millimeter, rounded to the nearest hundredth of a millimeter, which is less precise than if you had originally taken the measurement in millimeters.

To test this with your calculator, convert 0.001 inches and 0.002 inches to millimeters. Notice that the difference between 0.001 inches and 0.002 inches is just over 1/40th of a millimeter (about 0.0254 mm) The difference between .002 inches and .003 inches is about the same, as is the difference between 0.003 inches and 0.004 inches, and so on. This incremental difference is larger than the incremental difference of a metric caliper that reads to the nearest 1/100 of a millimeter so it is less precise than if you had originally taken the measurement with such a metric caliper.

Now convert 0.01 millimeters and 0.02 millimeters each to inches. Notice the difference is about 0.00039 inches, or about 1/2540 of an inch. This incremental difference is smaller than the smallest incremental difference obtainable with a caliper that only reads to the nearest 1/1000 of an inch. Even after rounding to the nearest 1/1000 of an inch, the result is still just as precise as it could be had the measurement been initially taken with caliper measuring in thousandths of an inch.

Thus it is better to take your measurements in millimeters with an accurate, quality metric caliper, since the same number of significant figures offers more precision.

I'm not a cue maker, but I'm certainly no stranger to taking accurate, precise measurements. I know many cue makers are perfectionists. I thought maybe some of those perfectionists, possibly including the original poster, might appreciate the information. I'm sorry I didn't state my point clearly enough to be understood the first time. I hope this is better. :)
Click to expand...


I completely understand what you are saying but you are trying to measure to increments that are not attainable on wood. Firstly, digital calipers read down to 5 tenths which is a half a .001. Also, calipers are only used for quick, easy to read, close measurements. If you are looking for precise measurements then you use a micrometer as even a cheap one goes down to .0001ths.. On cues you are working on wood and the diameter may change two or three thousands from day to day just from atmospheric changes.

Dick
 
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