Swanee 2013:: No jump cues?

CreeDo said:
It's true it's easy to jump, but it's hard to jump accurately... It's a roll of the dice for most players what happens after. And many balls are hard to jump (too close) or awkward to jump (too close to middle of table) or risky to jump (OB too close to rail).

It's not like once you get a jump cue you never kick again. kicking is still an important skill. Good luck winning anything significant if you suck at kicking.


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Quit making sense sir......that's not allowed here! :thumbup:
 
SkyscraperChris said:
Just overheard Mark Griffin announce that there are no jump cues allowed in the tournament. What is the real reason for forbidding players from using them? Is it not in the interest of the sport to promote jumping? Does this rule not favor highly the better players, particularly the Filipinos? I am for inclusiveness, not exclusiveness. What do you think?

I'm sure this subject has come up many times, so please don't make rude comments regarding repitition.
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Jumping OK, jump cues Not. Maybe if you mean super easy ways to jump that a 12 yr old can learn in 20 seconds (I tested that by the way) that take out the effect of a good safety, then yes, they are discouraging that.
 
SkyscraperChris said:
Spectators, and those who don't play pool regularly, do not have the high level of appreciation for 3+ rail kicks as you, me, and all other pool players have. Jump shots are more fun to watch for non-pool playing spectators, period.
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Those non-pool playing spectators are where? Even the ESPN "look, it's a woman playing pool, you may get a nice shot of her bent over" events are probably 90% serious or at least league players.

Players need to do high-fives and fancy jumps and gestures after each shot to get the attention of the general public. Maybe some trash talking and group dances.
 
JB Cases said:
Kicking is a lost art? WHAT?????

Let me see if I understand this, there are literally hundreds of books and commercial videos teaching people how to kick as well as plenty of non-commerical video and hundreds of articles and it's a lost art? On top of that every instructor beyond an APA 3 knows how to teach many kicking systems.

If anything it's a FOUND art since the implementation of Texas Express rules and one-foul ball in hand rules have made kicking skills hugely necessary.

Why is this always cast as an either-or proposition? As in a player with a jump cue automatically is assumed to be a poor kicker or vice versa?

In fact the amount of instruction out there teaching kicking is way more than instruction in jumping. To my knowledge there is just one professional DVD teaching jumping while there are dozens that teach kicking.
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It is just how I feel. I didn't say ban the jump shot, just do it with a full cue. I respect the people who have taken the time to learn how to jump.
But, kicking is much more then just systems and hitting the ball. It's feel and hitting the proper part of the ball.
 
The main reason I don't jump is because I agree with Danny D. The first to jump loses the game alot more then they win it.
 
Mark has not allowed jump cues in the Swanee for as long as I can remember, at least 5 or six years. There was a revolt against jump cues back then and I remember USPPA (Tony Annigoni) was a proponent of banning them.

I personally wish there was some consistency in the rules of pool. I prefer no jump cues myself but I concede it is a skill and some are better at it than others.
 
JB Cases said:
Not with a jump cue you can't. :-)

No one on this forum has more experience teaching people to jump than I do and it's not all in the cue.
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secret of the Road: when a situation arises that a jump shot is a better option but jump cues are not allowed, you just pick a wall Cue without any tip and jump the cue ball with it. Since many pool halls don`t care to keep their sticks in good condition it is easy to find a stick with no Tip. You can get a real good jump with that damaged stick.
 
spanky79 said:
It is just how I feel. I didn't say ban the jump shot, just do it with a full cue. I respect the people who have taken the time to learn how to jump.
But, kicking is much more then just systems and hitting the ball. It's feel and hitting the proper part of the ball.
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I understand but jumping is much more than simply hopping and hitting the ball as well.

If you have a kicking system then you have a basis to adjust from so you can hit the part of the ball you want to hit.

The thing is what is a jump cue? Because I can put a certain brand of cue in your hands that is 58", made by a Hall of Fame cuemaker and normal in every way and with it you will be able to jump a ton of shots and feel really good about your ability to jump balls. Then I will give you another brand of cue and you won't be able to jump a piece of paper with it. You will feel completely inadequate as a player trying to jump balls with this equally famous brand of cues.

But if I give you a jump cue then you and every other person on the planet has no advantage over any other player because of the cue. All of them work about the same so that means that the quality of the shot is dependent on the player and not the cue.

My advice if you want the jump shot is to allow jump cues. They are no different than chalk. Chalk allows you to use side spin and to draw your ball. Still just because you use chalk doesn't mean you can do the same shots as Mike Massey. Otherwise just flat out ban the jump shot because there will ALWAYS be certain types of cues that will always "jump" better than others and if you have one of them then you look like a hero when you jump balls and if you have one of the ones which aren't well suited to jumping you look like a zero.
 
JB Cases said:
And that's his fault for not practicing. I practice both skills because they are different and a good player needs to know when the jump is the best shot and when it's better to kick and how to do either.

If you can give him the last six then he needs to spend a lot more time on the rest of his game.
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Couldn't agree more. Players need BOTH skills. The argument "jumping is too easy" is not an argument at all. You know what else is easy? Drawing a cue ball 4 rails when you have a solid low-deflection cue. Should we ban those? What about phenolic break cues? Those make smashing the break easier. And what about aiming systems? Should we ban those from being taught? Cause it's easier to aim if you know those. Let's also ban the diamond system, for it makes kicking easier by helping players see the angles they need.

Obviously these things will never get banned, because they are essential. In the end, those that want to bad jump cues completely have the arrogant mentality that they are masters of kicking, and don't want to see anyone undermining their ability to do so by having a jump cue. That's like thinking "Well, I've mastered pool by using only house cues, so custom cues or any two-piece cue should be banned.

Have some consideration. We aren't all Efren, we aren't all playing at your so-called high level of play. Some of us are still in the process of learning our kicks, and can't see all the angles like you who claim kicking is the only solution. I use a jump cue when I either can't see the kick angle, or when kicking will lose the game for me. I jump less and less as the years go by, but I still know when to chose one over the other.
 
JB Cases said:
Using just about any of these systems any halfway decent player can learn to kick in less than an hour.

.
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Ha, so you think kicking is easier than jumping.... that's kinda funny. Well, we have a difference of opinions, and we can leave it at that..

Maybe the folks I teach are just "kicking challenged", and were born with a "jump gene" that I was not aware about, but I will start keeping my eye out for it from now on :)
 
SkyscraperChris said:
Couldn't agree more. Players need BOTH skills. The argument "jumping is too easy" is not an argument at all. You know what else is easy? Drawing a cue ball 4 rails when you have a solid low-deflection cue. Should we ban those? What about phenolic break cues? Those make smashing the break easier. And what about aiming systems? Should we ban those from being taught? Cause it's easier to aim if you know those. Let's also ban the diamond system, for it makes kicking easier by helping players see the angles they need.

Obviously these things will never get banned, because they are essential. In the end, those that want to bad jump cues completely have the arrogant mentality that they are masters of kicking, and don't want to see anyone undermining their ability to do so by having a jump cue. That's like thinking "Well, I've mastered pool by using only house cues, so custom cues or any two-piece cue should be banned.

Have some consideration. We aren't all Efren, we aren't all playing at your so-called high level of play. Some of us are still in the process of learning our kicks, and can't see all the angles like you who claim kicking is the only solution. I use a jump cue when I either can't see the kick angle, or when kicking will lose the game for me. I jump less and less as the years go by, but I still know when to chose one over the other.
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I fully agree and it's also a matter of semantics and degrees.

When someone says they hate to lay down a good safety and have someone jump out of it then how do they feel when someone kicks out it and makes the ball in a completely lucky manner or gets safe in a completely lucky manner.

Also if jump cues weren't here then people would still be jumping out of safes when they could. The FACT is that jump cues have FORCED players to tighten up their safety games and learn to play better safes.

I fail to understand why any good player would see that as a bad thing. A rising tide lifts all boats.

If a jump cue adds the ability to make a lot more shots possible then it's SKILL that makes those shots PROBABLE. I can jump better than most people I meet simply because I have practiced it more. Not because I didn't want to learn to kick either. I had to be able to demonstrate the cues so I needed to be proficient.

At first I thought they were toys and gimmicks as well. I didn't even OWN a jump cue when my friend Franz Hauber asked me to bring a few to the states to sell in my booth. When people saw them and asked me who they worked I said I don't know, take it and try it and if you like it buy it. I had no clue how to use one and didn't care to learn.

But when we developed the Bunjee Jumper I had to learn how to use it and by doing that I learned that it's absolutely a skill to be practiced and that there were a lot of great new shots that could be played. I wonder if back in 1880 or whenever Minguad invented the tip there were people who panned it and said ban the tip it makes billiards to easy. And the same goes for chalk. Did they say ban the chalk we don't want the ability to play with sidespin?

So anyway I had to learn to use the cue and then I found that I had to learn to teach people how to use it. That brought a whole other level of understanding as to the mechanics of the jump shot with and without a jump cue.

The fact is that the jump cue is no different than chalk. It's a tool which allows the player to do the most that can be done with the ball. Like chalk though it does not do anything BY itself. The player holding the cue does all the work the cue only makes it possible. Just like with CHALK you have the possibility to draw four rails and without chalk it's impossible no matter how good your stroke is.
 
spanky79 said:
kicking is a lost art. I believe there should be a length requirement for a cue. Just my opinion.

I know jumping is an art as well, just not something I enjoy doing or seeing.
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I am with you here spanky. The rule should be you have to use legitimate equipment at all times, in all tournaments. Jumping should be allowed, but only with your playing or break cue. This will take the circus out of the game and people wont be able to whip out those pea shooters and jump an object ball a half inch away. Save those specialty cues for trick shots and exibitions. If people want to use them matching up fine. I have seen some amazing kick safety's in the Swanee already. I like to watch players get creative and show their kicking skills....
 
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ChicagoRJ said:
Ha, so you think kicking is easier than jumping.... that's kinda funny. Well, we have a difference of opinions, and we can leave it at that..

Maybe the folks I teach are just "kicking challenged", and were born with a "jump gene" that I was not aware about, but I will start keeping my eye out for it from now on :)
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No, I said they are two different skills.

But here is the thing. If you don't have a decent stroke you cannot jump with a jump cue. Period. Can't do it. Oh you MIGHT get lucky if I show you how to hold your bridge and accidently hit one well enough to make it hop but 99% of the time you won't be able to execute any jump shots.

But even without a decent stroke if you can make the cue ball go in a straight line then you can kick any shot that doesn't require precise application of spin.

If I hand a c-player a jump cue and give them no instruction and tell them to jump a simple shot they will struggle a lot. It is highly doubtful that they will figure it out by trial and error inside 20 attempts.

If I tell a c-player to kick the cue ball three rails into the corner and give them no instruction I would be willing to bet $100 that they pocket the cue ball into the corner within 20 shots.

The point being that these are two separate skills but one of them absolutely requires a certain stroking technique while the other one only requires that you be able to hit a spot on the rail.

If I give the c-player an aiming system I would bet that they could pocket the cue ball in ten shots or less. And further more I would then go on to bet that they could pocket the cueball at least four times out of ten and get within a ball on the other six attempts after learning the basic aiming method. All in less than one hour.

I have seen it done.

Don't believe me?

Call Mark Smith, the owner of Beezers Billiards in Russelville Arkansas. Ask him to tell you what Tom Rossmann taught the players at his pool room over the course of a few hours. He taught them how to kick one, two and three rails. C-Players were making kick shots with ease.

Some of you guys have some sort or romantic notion that kick shots are voodoo magic which can only be mastered after giving the right type of blood sacrifice. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Kicks, banks, safeties, all of it can be measured to a precise degree. In fact we just had a couple epic threads where the central topic was whether a person had the right to teach kicking methods that they learned from a pro.

I make great kicks all the time and the crowd (all four of the people watching) goes ooohhhhh and ahhhhh and claps......because they don't know that I measured it and it's not a big deal for me. For them it's voodoo magic because no one ever taught them how to measure kicks.

I guarantee you that no one on the forum, and I mean no one, has more experience in this topic than me. I have had this debate on this and other forums for years and more importantly in person on the pool table with an actual crowd at shows. I can write a million words and you won't change your mind.

However I can pick a C-player out of the crowd and have her kicking in five minutes and demonstrate that what I say is a 100% stone-cold fact. And I can have her jumping in five to ten minutes as well even if I have to teach her how to stroke first.
 
My next video is going to address this. I get really tired of typing the same thing over and over.
 
ugotactionTX said:
But yet you do... I don't think you've ever held a view you grew "tired" of typing about
:D
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No really I am tired of typing the same responses to the same misguided points. Being tired doesn't mean I give up and cede the points.

I will make a video about it and then post that link a thousand times. Much easier.
 
JB Cases said:
However I can pick a C-player out of the crowd and have her kicking in five minutes and demonstrate that what I say is a 100% stone-cold fact. And I can have her jumping in five to ten minutes as well even if I have to teach her how to stroke first.
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well bully for you. I didn't realize you were the greatest coach in the world... why did you not say something... You WIN. feel better :rolleyes:
 
ChicagoRJ said:
well bully for you. I didn't realize you were the greatest coach in the world... why did you not say something... You WIN. feel better :rolleyes:
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:-) Thanks.

Not even close to being a good coach. Not trying to win here either. Just providing the facts that perhaps you might not be aware of. What I say is true and I can prove it.

If you have never seen Tom Rossmann in action teaching people to kick then how could you know how well he can do it?

Or Jimmy Reid or David Matlock? I have seen them both teach people (me and others) to kick 1, 2, and 3 rails in minutes.

If you haven't had that kind of exposure, which I have been fortunate to have, then how could you know? If you had then I doubt you would be in disagreement with me. I mean I don't see how you could be if you had that type of experience.
 
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