swipe/swoop to get more english

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
was eavesdropping on a a "better" player trying to help a "lesser" player
the better player was trying to explain to the lesser player if you need some "extra" english you can turn the cue "at contact "and turn the cue ball more
ive seen discussed before the concept of hitting off center thru the ball more or less parralel to the center ball contact line
vs
the cue angling away from the ball towards the side of the applied english
the "better "player beleived that if you stroke staigtht and "during the time of compression of the tip on the cue ball"you tuned the shaft or stroke line in the direction of the desired english you could get more english this way

what do you guys think of this and is there a link to prove it??

is it possible in the short amount of time the cue tip is in contact with the object ball
that there is time to "play with what happens during that time span?

just curious
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have been doing this for a long time. And when I explain it to other players I usually get a blank look. It really works best on short touch shots when the cue ball is close to the object ball and you need just a little more spin to get past a ball that's in your way coming off a rail.. Or when the object ball is close to a rail and you need just a little more angle coming off the rail.And it only works if you hit it slow.It increases the spin rate just a little.
I have never seen the need to use it on long shots. You will lose accuracy.
I've been doing this for over 50 years and it works. Not a lot of difference but this is a game of millimeters sometimes.
 
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The Renfro

Outsville.com
Silver Member
Swipe/swoop gets you no more english than a pivot... Based on the inaccuracy in swooping you may get more or less than expected depending on the tip offset....

The swoop/swipe is about backhand english.. It compensates for deflection when using english IF your pivot point is correct....

I swoop.. Have for years as it is natural.. but from experience I know that if I pivot I get the same results... it's just not how I learned to play....
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some time ago, in the main forum, someone posted about swiping as if it were a new method of applying English.

It's far from new. I learned that method back in the 80's and still use it fairly often today.
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Some time ago, in the main forum, someone posted about swiping as if it were a new method of applying English.

It's far from new. I learned that method back in the 80's and still use it fairly often today.

I learned it in the early '60s from an old timer who started playing in the '20s.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
was eavesdropping on a a "better" player trying to help a "lesser" player
the better player was trying to explain to the lesser player if you need some "extra" english you can turn the cue "at contact "and turn the cue ball more
ive seen discussed before the concept of hitting off center thru the ball more or less parralel to the center ball contact line
vs
the cue angling away from the ball towards the side of the applied english
the "better "player beleived that if you stroke staigtht and "during the time of compression of the tip on the cue ball"you tuned the shaft or stroke line in the direction of the desired english you could get more english this way

what do you guys think of this and is there a link to prove it??

is it possible in the short amount of time the cue tip is in contact with the object ball
that there is time to "play with what happens during that time span?

just curious

Read Dr. Daves material on the subject. Many people think they can do things that just aren't possible. Really, think about it, the tip is in contact for .001 seconds. Do you really think that anyone can move their cue , and accurately, enough during that time frame to do anything worthwhile? http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/index.html
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Read Dr. Daves material on the subject. Many people think they can do things that just aren't possible. Really, think about it, the tip is in contact for .001 seconds. Do you really think that anyone can move their cue , and accurately, enough during that time frame to do anything worthwhile? http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/index.html

Things are always changing as we learn more. If something can be done with a particular technique, it is possible that an explanation has not yet been discovered. How long were people referring to the Filipino stroke as a pump handle stroke? As far as I can tell, I was the first to publicly state in the AZ forum that it was a loop stroke without a pause.

How extensive was the study on tip contact time? What if the acceleration rate was significantly increased at the discretion of the shooter right at tip contact? Is it possible for tip contact time to be significantly increased? What about double hits on the cb that are barely discernable? How does a shoulder drop and it's timing play into all this?

I believe there are things yet to be discovered; and ruling out something that works for many just because there isn't scientific proof yet that it exists --- Well, I think that might not be the answer.
 
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Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Things are always changing as we learn more. If something can be done with a particular technique, it is possible that an explanation has not yet been discovered. How long were people referring to the Filipino stroke as a pump handle stroke? As far as I can tell, I was the first to publicly state in the AZ forum that it was a loop stroke without a pause.

How extensive was the study on tip contact time? What if the acceleration rate was significantly increased at the discretion of the shooter right at tip contact? Is it possible for tip contact time to be significantly increased? What about double hits on the cb that are barely discernable? How does a shoulder drop and it's timing play into all this?

I believe there are things yet to be discovered; and ruling out something that works for many just because there isn't scientific proof yet that it exists --- Well, I think that might not be the answer.

Well, I suppose that's as good of an excuse as any that you can't accept that you aren't doing what you think you are doing.

As many volumes as have been written about spheres and their interaction; and the volumes about studies of the human body by actual scientists, and you want me to believe that a few pool players know something they don't know. o-kayyyyyyy.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, I suppose that's as good of an excuse as any that you can't accept that you aren't doing what you think you are doing.

As many volumes as have been written about spheres and their interaction; and the volumes about studies of the human body by actual scientists, and you want me to believe that a few pool players know something they don't know. o-kayyyyyyy.

Nice try but no. We have much yet to learn in our game. It's inappropriate to discount things that work just because there isn't a scientific proof for it yet.
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Nice try but no. We have much yet to learn in our game. It's inappropriate to discount things that work just because there isn't a scientific proof for it yet.

Doesn't Dr. Dave's video prove that it doesn't work/make a difference?

I'd bet that if you watched videos of 50 different pros, you'd be hard pressed to find 10 that use the swipe method when applying english.

How about saying that just because it works for you, doesn't automatically make it the correct way to do it?

If you drive an automatic, you could use your right foot for both the gas and brake, but that doesn't make it right.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Doesn't Dr. Dave's video prove that it doesn't work/make a difference?

I'd bet that if you watched videos of 50 different pros, you'd be hard pressed to find 10 that use the swipe method when applying english.

How about saying that just because it works for you, doesn't automatically make it the correct way to do it?

If you drive an automatic, you could use your right foot for both the gas and brake, but that doesn't make it right.

I never said it was the perfect way to apply sidespin, however, it has worked for many players throughout the years. Who said I use it all the time? Go back and read my posts and show me where I wrote that.

I take issue when some people like Neil get on here and discount it altogether. It isn't fair, nor is it appropriate to do that.

I'm sure you've studied how Earl applies side spin since you seem to know what's appropriate. How does Earl do it?

There is more to be discovered in our game.
 
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Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I never said it was the perfect way to apply sidespin, however, it has worked for many players throughout the years. Who said I use it all the time? Go back and read my posts and show me where I wrote that.

I take issue when some people like Neil get on here and discount it altogether. It isn't fair, nor is it appropriate to do that.

I'm sure you've studied how Earl applies side spin since you seem to know what's appropriate. How does Earl do it?

There is more to be discovered in our game.

Fran, maybe you just need to re-read what the OP actually wrote and questioned. ??
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
was eavesdropping on a a "better" player trying to help a "lesser" player
the better player was trying to explain to the lesser player if you need some "extra" english you can turn the cue "at contact "and turn the cue ball more
ive seen discussed before the concept of hitting off center thru the ball more or less parralel to the center ball contact line
vs
the cue angling away from the ball towards the side of the applied english
the "better "player beleived that if you stroke staigtht and "during the time of compression of the tip on the cue ball"you tuned the shaft or stroke line in the direction of the desired english you could get more english this way

what do you guys think of this and is there a link to prove it??

is it possible in the short amount of time the cue tip is in contact with the object ball
that there is time to "play with what happens during that time span?

just curious
So far as I know, no one has ever demonstrated that you can get more side spin by swooping. I think it is just a different -- and to me, a far less consistent -- way to do backhand english. Look at the players who really spin the cue ball, like Massey, Sayginer and Trump. No goofy swooping.

Some players fear hitting off-center because of miscues. They barely spin the ball because their arms force them to hit near the center. If someone shows them this "new swoop-spin" technique to get side spin, they may actually rev up the ball for the first time in their lives. They will be true believers. They will also be layering on a mechanical monstrosity to fix a deeper problem in their mechanics.

Even though the tip is on the ball for only a very short time, it does not follow directly that the player could not possibly and under any circumstance affect the result of the shot by swooping the cue stick. Swoop can in fact be useful for shots when the cue ball is very close to the object ball; you swoop to avoid the second hit. However, think about how fast the tip will need to move to the side to have any significant effect. It should be moving to the side at a speed comparable to the forward motion of the cue stick. That's a 45-degee angle relative to straight ahead. Try very slow strokes in which the tip moves at a 45 relative to its normal path. I bet you can't.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So far as I know, no one has ever demonstrated that you can get more side spin by swooping. I think it is just a different -- and to me, a far less consistent -- way to do backhand english. Look at the players who really spin the cue ball, like Massey, Sayginer and Trump. No goofy swooping.

Some players fear hitting off-center because of miscues. They barely spin the ball because their arms force them to hit near the center. If someone shows them this "new swoop-spin" technique to get side spin, they may actually rev up the ball for the first time in their lives. They will be true believers. They will also be layering on a mechanical monstrosity to fix a deeper problem in their mechanics.

Even though the tip is on the ball for only a very short time, it does not follow directly that the player could not possibly and under any circumstance affect the result of the shot by swooping the cue stick. Swoop can in fact be useful for shots when the cue ball is very close to the object ball; you swoop to avoid the second hit. However, think about how fast the tip will need to move to the side to have any significant effect. It should be moving to the side at a speed comparable to the forward motion of the cue stick. That's a 45-degee angle relative to straight ahead. Try very slow strokes in which the tip moves at a 45 relative to its normal path. I bet you can't.

Not proven as fact. As you wrote, it's to the best of your knowledge. You did not state it as a fact because as you know, you don't have enough information to do that.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Yeah, Bob doesn't know "anything" about physics as it applies to pool. :rolleyes: He was just the person who DID the applied science on dwell time, tip contact size, proven squirt factors, and many more things. Perhaps you should spend a little time watching the Jacksonville Project video. You might actually learn something...but you probably still wouldn't believe it. :boring2:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Not proven as fact. As you wrote, it's to the best of your knowledge. You did not state it as a fact because as you know, you don't have enough information to do that.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yeah, Bob doesn't know "anything" about physics as it applies to pool. :rolleyes: He was just the person who DID the applied science on dwell time, tip contact size, proven squirt factors, and many more things. Perhaps you should spend a little time watching the Jacksonville Project video. You might actually learn something...but you probably still wouldn't believe it. :boring2:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Get over yourself, Scott. That's not at all what I wrote. Bob knows what I mean. As for you, well, you've proven over and over who you really are. I'm sick of your crappy underhanded sarcastic condescending comments towards me. Keep it up and I will file a formal complaint against you with the PBIA. Oops... I can't do that because it would go to the chairman, your buddy, Randy. That wouldn't get me very far, would it??

Yes, but the BCA is still at the helm and we have a code of conduct that you have repeatedly broken with me and I am sick, sick, sick of it, Scott. Do you get that?

LAY OFF!
 
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Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Really? You're the one that all the other knowledgeable instructors and advanced players disagree with on this particular topic (among others)! :rolleyes: Yep...I do know who I am...a knowledgeable teacher who has helped thousands of players of all abilities, including pro players. We're both instructors, but when you start saying that Bob's "opinion" is just an opinion...that may be correct. That said, his opinions are unbiased, and based on both facts and experience...rather than "well I think this can work...it just can't be 'proven'". Of course there is high-speed video that is pretty good proof, if you ask me (which of course you won't...LOL).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Get over yourself, Scott. That's not at all what I wrote. Bob knows what I mean. As for you, well, you've proven over and over who you really are.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not proven as fact. As you wrote, it's to the best of your knowledge. You did not state it as a fact because as you know, you don't have enough information to do that.

Fran, read what the OP actually asked, you start out parallel, then once you make contact, you turn the cue to add spin. Are you saying that your timing is so phenomenal that you can actually not swoop until contact? That whole .001 sec. of time?
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
i am enjoying the general discussion of swoop/swerve and learning alot
dont stop now
from what im understanding
swerve is a form of backhand english
so far it seems the cue must swerve (ie the backhand english applied) just before contact and then make contact then follow thru along that new line . difficult to do much in 0.001 second contact time
is that correct???
 
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