Table Leveling Standards

OTLB

OTLB

Banned
Regardless of what level you use to do the job(more is better)can we set a std for positions where the levels should read in spec. What is spec? Is spec good enough? This is not a question for me, it is a question to see if we can establish a std for this operation. Talk of a mech association etc is very good. Let's see what we can do to set this std. To me, this is more than easy to establish. All I am referring to is where the levels should be placed every time a table is set up. NOT how to level a table.
If we could establish this I would be all for a MECH association of sorts. If we can't do this, there is no hope for any type of mech union or whatever.

You can use an excel spreadsheet to highlight where levels should be placed. This would be the first std of many that needs to be estabished.

A task like this is normal SOP for many disciplines. This should be completed ASAP> Then we can choose another topic to formalize. This is an easy task, failure to establish it now resides with you who are reading this. Lets get this forum on track to improve our trade. There really isn't anything thats more important.
 
OTLB said:
Regardless of what level you use to do the job(more is better)can we set a std for positions where the levels should read in spec. What is spec? Is spec good enough? This is not a question for me, it is a question to see if we can establish a std for this operation. Talk of a mech association etc is very good. Let's see what we can do to set this std. To me, this is more than easy to establish. All I am referring to is where the levels should be placed every time a table is set up. NOT how to level a table.
If we could establish this I would be all for a MECH association of sorts. If we can't do this, there is no hope for any type of mech union or whatever.

You can use an excel spreadsheet to highlight where levels should be placed. This would be the first std of many that needs to be estabished.

A task like this is normal SOP for many disciplines. This should be completed ASAP> Then we can choose another topic to formalize. This is an easy task, failure to establish it now resides with you who are reading this. Lets get this forum on track to improve our trade. There really isn't anything thats more important.
Click to expand...

Good morning John,

Could you first produce the standard for the spread sheet (excel), perhaps a link to a template that we could all use. Sort of a standard for the standard....

Are we going to have a board of review? How do we arrive at a consensus of which system or placement is THE STANDARD? Since we have no union, guild, governing body, standards and practices guidelines how do we take the gathered information and convert or establish it as a standard? It sort of a chicken and the egg paradox. I'm not trying to be negative, but I think the organization must be created first, in order for any process or procedure to be a standard. Without out this organization we will continue as we have here at AZ and elsewhere simply exchanging ideas rather than setting standards.

I carry 2 12 inch Starrett 98 machinist's levels on the road with me. I level each section of a three piece slate measured in the following locations. The span width ways in the center at the foot and seam, from the edge of the slate at the "ball track" (5 inches in from the edge) to the center both across and head to foot on both sides of the slate, and finally from the center of the slate to the seam edge and from the center to the foot edge. This system has served me well over the years. I'm not saying it's the best system just the best one I've found for three piece slate tables.

When I'm working on Brunswick Metro's or Gabriel signature pro's or older Diamond pro's or tables that require leveling with the rails bolted to the slates before the cloth is installed the fixed locations can vary it's more of a "live" process. Glen demonstrated this system at the Alsip seminar on the 7 ft Diamond smart table using the "low low" leveling system with a single level and directional arrows. If you were to use separate levels at all the locations you would need 27, 8 inch Starretts. I do believe that is how Diamond levels the tables at the factory with their leveling system. It's just not practical for me to buy or carry 27 machinist's levels.

The point is that we need many "Standards" that address the various situations and equipment that are encountered in the field. Not to mention billiard tables, snooker tables, four piece slate tables and one piece slate tables, all of which have their own slightly different locations for level reading and placement.

The gathering of the information is relatively easy. Standardizing it poses a much bigger challange...JMO

Jay
 
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A-1 billiards said:
Are we going to have a board of review? How do we arrive at a consensus of which system or placement is THE STANDARD? Since we have no union, guild, governing body, standards and practices guidelines how do we take the gathered information and convert or establish it as a standard? It sort of a chicken and the egg paradox. I'm not trying to be negative, but I think the organization must be created first, in order for any process or procedure to be a standard. Without out this organization we will continue as we have here at AZ and elsewhere simply exchanging ideas rather than setting standards.

Jay
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I agree with you for the most part, Jay. But before forming an organization, you have to have a need for it. That need is the low standards that are out there today. How many home owners have you guys heard talk about "home field advantage" when referring to rolls in their table? Their table is together, and that meets their expectations. I think that by exchanging ideas, the members of this board have already raised the standard among our group. The point of the organization to me is to establish measurable guidelines for our higher standards and to spread knowledge so that the general public that we are able to reach has higher expectations for the work done to their table. The organization is also needed to protect and promote its members who do work to that higher standard.
 
table

"I thought we all agreed to use glens leveling system?? We all watched glen level the 9 foot table in alsip...are any of u using the cards? that is the standard that everyone should use for leveling and level placement...I use a few starrett..sometimes only one...really no need for more than 1 starrett if ur useing the low_low system, more than one starrett goes a lil faster..
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Rob.M
 
Club Billiards said:
I agree with you for the most part, Jay. But before forming an organization, you have to have a need for it. That need is the low standards that are out there today. How many home owners have you guys heard talk about "home field advantage" when referring to rolls in their table? Their table is together, and that meets their expectations. I think that by exchanging ideas, the members of this board have already raised the standard among our group. The point of the organization to me is to establish measurable guidelines for our higher standards and to spread knowledge so that the general public that we are able to reach has higher expectations for the work done to their table. The organization is also needed to protect and promote its members who do work to that higher standard.
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Josh,

Very well stated! How about a book, like the building code or the electrical code or the plumbing code, only for the billiards industry? (more like 100 pages than 1000) The problem is that someone or some body of people has to decide whats included and whats excluded. In other words, what are the standards going to be. That process is usually best done by an organization made up of the professionals from that industry.

As you can see from my post I shared my method of level reading and placement, I'm sure other mechanics do this procedure differently. My question is, which is the one, or which combination of methods would be adopted as best. How many levels would be needed? What type of levels? and to what degree must the slate be leveled? I can't envision a "standard" that does not address these questions.

The information posted in this forum has certainly helped many mechanics, installers and DIY's preform better work. The next step is to have the buying public demanding this better work. My feeling is this is better accomplished through a recognized organization than by individuals.

I understand you are at DCC installing and servicing Diamond tables for the tournament. I believe Diamond is there in full force to make sure that the work performed is up to their "standard" for this important event. I'm sure you and Donny are contributing substantially to that effort. I'm also sure that you are both following Diamond's methods and procedures in that effort.

Always good to hear your perspective on the issues, and enjoy Derby City.

Jay
 
dontlitethat said:
"I thought we all agreed to use glens leveling system?? We all watched glen level the 9 foot table in alsip...are any of u using the cards? that is the standard that everyone should use for leveling and level placement...I use a few starrett..sometimes only one...really no need for more than 1 starrett if ur useing the low_low system, more than one starrett goes a lil faster..
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Rob.M
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Rob,

Glen doesn't use playing cards that I'm aware of. Wedge shims from Home Depot is what he demonstrated in Alsip. I believe Diamond uses 20 plus levels on their tables with the leveling system built in. Thats why Glen was using the directional arrows to simulate the placement of the additional levels. If you were referring to the directional cards my apologies

Jay
 
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table

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-jay
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When I said cards I was talking about the directional arrow cards for sure..I made my own set from 3x5 card stock."My avitar"..I have never used anything else but wood shims to level tables in the 12+ years I have worked on tables. The system I was thought when I first learned to level tables is very similar to the low-low system of glens...
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P.S
-jay, u are in the production studio making a video related to billiads? Or u making dj jay mix tapes?
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Take care
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Robert molina
 
Rob,

I have not adopted the low low leveling system for my three piece slate tables. I find it very time consuming. The more traditional length, width, center to edge system is still working fine, with good consistent results.

If I'm able to spend more field time with Glen I may reconsider the low low leveling system. For one piece slate Diamond's with the built in leveling system low low is the best method.

Jay
 
table

Some slates level easier than others depending on what condition the frame is in..I like to use both systems that we have mentioned to level depending on the situation at hand..low-low system will take some time...long enough time of doing it and we all find short cuts to get the same end result-level..
+the directional cards are great to use..
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Jay->Ur gonna be a movie star?
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Rob.M
 
Standard for leveling a table....The standard is you better get it right or you won't be working in this business
long. Personal pride in your work is the best way of leveling a table. Just know (when) to say (enough)

Standard for gluing the slate seams, the pocket french fold, or the glue method of the cloth.
Now things such as those and many more should become standard.

Leveling the slate is the art of the job.

Mark Gregory
 
perfectpocketz said:
Standard for leveling a table....The standard is you better get it right or you won't be working in this business
long. Personal pride in your work is the best way of leveling a table. Just know (when) to say (enough)

Standard for gluing the slate seams, the pocket french fold, or the glue method of the cloth.
Now things such as those and many more should become standard.

Leveling the slate is the art of the job.

Mark Gregory
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Agreed!!! If you take pride in your work you will find a way to level the table. Be it Glen's low low leveling, Jay's way, Mark's way, My way or Joe Mechanic's way. How level is level is the question. If you are doing a table for a home owner who really could care less if they even play on the table. Do you spend the same amount of time on that table as you would a players table or a pool room table? Do we put in the effort on the chinese slate that your hand can feel the hills and valleys on? There is also the frames on some of the imports and cheaper tables that make it hard to keep a table level. I think these questions should be answered too.
 
Just for the record, I'm using the word "standard" defined as a technical standard, rather than a de-facto standard.

Sorry for any confusion.

Jay
 
perfectpocketz said:
Standard for leveling a table....The standard is you better get it right or you won't be working in this business
long. Personal pride in your work is the best way of leveling a table. Just know (when) to say (enough)

Standard for gluing the slate seams, the pocket french fold, or the glue method of the cloth.
Now things such as those and many more should become standard.

Leveling the slate is the art of the job.

Mark Gregory
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Mark,
If only it were true. Unfortunately the are many long standing company's and individual mechanics that continue to "slash and burn" their way through commercial and residential pool tables, contending they did a great job.

This will only change when the buying public demands the standards you refer to above...

Jay
 
A-1 billiards said:
Mark,
If only it were true. Unfortunately the are many long standing company's and individual mechanics that continue to "slash and burn" their way through commercial and residential pool tables, contending they did a great job.

This will only change when the buying public demands the standards you refer to above...

Jay
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You're so right Jay....the bottom line is this, the good mechanics understand when we level the table, and put the cloth on....we know before we even hit a ball, how the table is going to play.

The "slash and burn" people that call themselves mechanics, will crash & burn if we set standards on the kind of work we do, and the materials we use.

Glen has done a great job educating a lot here on AZ, but we need so mush more.

Mark Gregory
 
Alright you guys:p since no one has mentioned it as of yet I'm going to say it now. When leveling slates a "standard" is not what I have in mind, what I DO however have in mind is more of a "Method" or "System" of workmanship to fit each and every slate you're trying to level. Keep in mind you can not use a simple system as a "Standard" when you run across a slate that needs to be altered for what ever reason, such as the slates are crowned from side to side, so in teaching a "Method" or "System" you must also be ready to teach the "How to's" of the system to make corrections in the slate in order to achieve your goals of a "Level Playing Surface" When I set up the GC3 in Sioux Falls, SD I had to ADD 6 more slate bolts in order to achieve the level of the slates that I wanted, or there was no way I could control the slates to get them to perfectly level. Also, seldom do you ever come across slates that always level up the same, so the "Method" or "System" has to be flexible enough to create the end results of what you're trying to accomplish, a level playing surface. If all slates were exactly the same, a "Standard" of leveling would be easy to set, but they're not, so I'm more interested in the "Knowing how to level" slates as opposed to setting a "Standard" of leveling. And believe it or not, a real mechanic also must know when to tell the customer that the slates are ground so bad that they CAN'T be leveled, so they have one of two choices, one being the slates need to be replaced, or TWO....I'm NOT going to be responsible for your table not being level if you WANT me to continue on from here with the bad slates that I'm about to put cloth on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Glen
 
Total lack of focus thus far really. Having no end game plan for thoughts is a waste of time. If an established placement method could be agreed upon then a table could be deemed playable and fit for tournamnets etc. Tournaments could then be certified as meeting the requirements of the org.(ours) This was my thought.

Its not about how to level a table. Jay is on track with a spreadsheet. A designate Dartman for this.
 
OTLB said:
Total lack of focus thus far really. Having no end game plan for thoughts is a waste of time. If an established placement method could be agreed upon then a table could be deemed playable and fit for tournamnets etc. Tournaments could then be certified as meeting the requirements of the org.(ours) This was my thought.

Its not about how to level a table. Jay is on track with a spreadsheet. A designate Dartman for this.
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John, I think you're way ahead of yourself here buddy;) Since most of the tables used in tournaments today are Diamonds, and Diamond has crews that set up those tables at the tournaments...mechanics have nothing to do with the level of them tables, therefore have no role in creating "requirements" for the level of such tables. If the Diamond people don't set the tables up level for the tournaments, that's a Diamond problem, I don't see that it has anything to do with the mechanics of this country. Now, if Diamond sold one of them tables to a customer, and I went out to install the table and determined that the slate(s) were bad, then that would become MY problem...as I now represent the "customer" and his purchase, so then it would be my role to advise the customer of his options...at that time.:)

Glen
 
Diamonds are NOT the most used table in tournaments and that is not what I asked about it, is it?

I didn't ask about bandaids or super glue either

Simple question but as I suspected there is no focus. The attitude is one of why something can't work versus one of " OK lets see what we can come up with"

Jay is on point and I trust Dartman to filter results of the spreadsheet.

I will wait for Dartman to weigh in, did I just say that?

If you say your going to do something, get it done or get out of the way. Thats what I say. I have formed the BMA and if this simple std can NOT be established by you guys(not me) I will write it for you.

Talking about something and doing it are two dif things. My track record in this area is perfect. I get it done!
 
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