Taking the Air out of the Predator Air

[Actionhound]

i own a Fury jump break, and have tried the Predator Air, jump cue, personally i found it to be a little on the light side, and i love my Fury, i have a custom built jump break cue thats part of a matching set for my playing cue that ran 1700, and every day when i get into action i pull out my Fury and leave my custom break cue in the case... its all what you prefer, but i wouldnt trade anything for my Fury, as far as breaking and Jumping its the best cue ive ever used... but thats my opinion.

 

[John Barton]

BTW, John, thank you for a great thread. This is the stuff I love on this board. This was a nice, clean debate, or more like a great exchange of ideas. Rep to you for this. Don't fall off your chair - yes, I did give you rep.

Sorry for the late reply I was slow to get up after falling out of the chair

Yes, it has been nice, thank you as well.

 

[ratcues]

During that time I had a standing challenge that if anyone could show me another cue (that wasn't a direct copy of the Bunjee) which provided the same or better performance for the same or less money - then I would give them $500. But noone was ever able to claim that money

They are about the same in my opinion.

The jumpability is roughly the same.

I can do the same things with the Fury JB as I can with the Bunjee. And the same with a Sledgehammer or a Varney or Stinger and presumably with an X-jumper.

Do I get the $500?

 

[CreeDo]

good replies john, and I enjoyed reading about it. I'm more curious to get into the world o' jumping as a result. Currently I've been jumping with a full cue and gotten pretty sporty with it, but I wouldn't bet on myself to get liftoff from a ball's width away or to spin off the rail a certain way.

Sounds like you're really proud of what you sell. It's nice when a sales job can be that way. Lucky to have such a job =)

 

[TATE]

So far, everybody I've let use my Predator Air wants one. It works great. They are going to sell a bunch.

Chris

 

[JoeyInCali]

Does Sterling sell Predator products?

 

[John Barton]

Do I get the $500?

Did you bring a jump cue during the time I owned Bunjee that equaled it for performance for the same or less money, i.e. provided a better value?

If you did then you would have won the cash.

Now, I have said that most jump cues are very close in performance.

So if I am correct then those brands which are not derivatives of the Bunjee, should perform the same or better for the same or less money in order for them to be a better value to the consumer.

I don't even know what the prices are right now for jump cues across the board. I think the Bunjee and it's clones sells for $59-$99.

So the only thing I am saying is that the P-Air, in my opinion, does not beat the Bunjee and it's counterparts across the board, so in effect does not provide better value. I say that it's a great cue among equally great cues, not the best, not the worst.

And for the folks who think that this is solely motivated because I sell another brand. It's not. It's motivated because I have an interest in knowing what it is true about performance claims in jump cues and what isn't.

I have been consistent in this for ten years, here and on RSB. If so and so claims to have the greatest jump cue then I have said "prove it". I did the same thing with Arnot cues, the same thing with Stinger, the same thing with Varney. I tested them I found that they weren't "greater" than and I reported it.

Some of you think I am advocating not buying the P-Air. Not at all. I am advocating trying before you buy and IF you feel that the cue provides the value then get it. Nothing more nothing less.

 

[John Barton]

Does Sterling sell Predator products?

No but it makes no difference. If we did my words would be the same.

The Predator Air is a great jump cue. Not the best, not the worst.

It's someone else's job to define a test and provide rankings. According to 'MY' tests based on my extensive experience I have as much right to say that Predator is not "the most accurate" as they have to say that it is.

And if we sold them then I would post the same review.

I don't know how I can be any clearer when from the beginning I have disclosed my competitive involvement.

The only thing that matters is: do the points I raise have merit or not?

Obviously if Predator can say that they are the best then someone else should be allowed to disagree.

I tried the cue fully expecting to be blown away based on the reviews by very good players. I personally was underwhelmed. Enough to write a review about it even though it would be viewed skeptically because it comes from a "competitor". Well I have never been known to do the "smart" thing but I do the real thing that's for sure. And I do it with FULL DISCLOSURE of who I am and where I am coming from.

I like Predator. I like the people there. I like the company's style and their aggressive marketing. I don't like some of their choices but that's the same for everyone. So don't get the idea that this is some kind of competitive thing because Sterling does not sell Predator products. It's merely calling out claims that I don't think are true, namely that the jump cue is "the best".

Anyway I think everything that I want to say has been said.

 

[JoeyInCali]

No but it makes no difference. If we did my words would be the same.
But you wouldn't create a whole new thread review of it I bet.
Because then Pred would cut you off as a dealer.

 

[John Barton]

good replies john, and I enjoyed reading about it. I'm more curious to get into the world o' jumping as a result. Currently I've been jumping with a full cue and gotten pretty sporty with it, but I wouldn't bet on myself to get liftoff from a ball's width away or to spin off the rail a certain way.

Sounds like you're really proud of what you sell. It's nice when a sales job can be that way. Lucky to have such a job =)

Jumping with a full cue is a skill that you should master. Your shot range will be limited but you need to know those limitations and master everything within them. Jumping with a jump cue then allows you to build on that skill and widen your range of jump shots considerably.

Back when I was preparing to introduce the Bunjee to the world I figured I had better learn to use it well. So I went back to the basics and worked on my full cue jumping, with a wide range of cues so that I understood it.

Then I worked on the the jumping with the short cue so that I understood that. So now I know how to do both and when it's better to use the full cue and when not.

Over the years I have improved my technique to the point where I can often make shots with my full cue that I could only make with a jump cue before. Consequently I have become that much better with the jump cue.

As for being proud of what I sell;

It's about trust. If I can't have trust in what I sell then I can't have confidence in it. If I recommend something to you something that I wouldn't use myself then I am no better than the traveling huckster who peddles fake medicine.

Since I have been in business I have always sought to find out everything about what I sell and my competition. If the competition is doing something better than me then I need to make my stuff better. So that is what I focus on. Then I can be confident in what I sell. I can bet on it and I do. And with that approach comes the confidence to call a spade a spade and fade the heat that comes with it.

 

[John Barton]

No but it makes no difference. If we did my words would be the same.
But you wouldn't create a whole new thread review of it I bet.
Because then Pred would cut you off as a dealer.

No. I would have posted the same thing. And if Predator cuts people off because they disagree with a claim or two then that would speak volumes about how "confident" they are.

I think Predator is confident enough to forge ahead with whatever marketing plan they have settled on whether someone disagrees with them or not.

The only thing that would have changed in my review would have been the disclaimer, it would have included that we sell Predator cues.

 

[JoeyInCali]

No. I would have posted the same thing. And if Predator cuts people off because they disagree with a claim or two then that would speak volumes about how "confident" they are.

I think Predator is confident enough to forge ahead with whatever marketing plan they have settled on whether someone disagrees with them or not.

The only thing that would have changed in my review would have been the disclaimer, it would have included that we sell Predator cues.

OK, review your own products then and let's see if you have some unfavorable reviews of them such as false advertising or misrepresentation.
And even if you are 100% correct in your review, you are still desparaging Predator b/c you don't sell them and you sell a competing brands/s.
It'd be like someone who distributes JBL speakers posting on the forum and disproving Bose's product claims/advertisement.
IT's still competition desparaging.

 

[AMoney]

What is wrong with people!?

I can never get down to Valley Forge. My wife's a teacher, so I don't have the luxury of heading down for a week unless I want to drag my family with me, and I think my wife would rather shave her legs with a cheese grater than head to a Billiards Expo for anything longer than 5 minutes.

I've set your shots up and tried them. I was equally successful with the Air, the Bunjee, the Leaping Lizard, and the jump portion of a Sledgehammer. I think your shots are set up to prove that specific purpose. There were some shots I couldn't make with any of the cues. That's what skews the data. You need to set up game situations, not these "creations" like the jump 8-ball in the side pocket. Half of these are trick shots. There is one gaping hole in the performance of the heavy jump cues. Imagine being pinned behind the 9 with an 8 as a hanger in the pocket, and you are about 2-3" away from the blocking ball. You are blocked FULL by the 9. The score is hill-hill, the winner moves on in the tourney, the loser goes home. I know which cue I want to use for that shot. AIR. If there is no significant difference in the "overall" performance of the Bunjee vs. the Air, but the Air allows me the Houdini escape shots like I've described, I'm shelling out an extra $50 and getting the Air jump cue. It's peanuts versus what it allows me to do.

Don't get me wrong, I know that jump cues nowadays have changed the game.
When I jump a ball my main concern is to either make that ball or play safe.
I had an X-breaker for the longest time, but just sold that because I have a custom Diveney on the way.
And I have also tried some of the ultralight ones, like the Lightning Bolt and the Pred Air.

The jump cues that are weighted normally (not the ultra light ones) just give a player so much more control over the shot.
I know that I cannot jump from as close as an ultralight jump cue can, but that is the sacrifice I make for more control.

If the situation that you described above occurs, I don't care who you are, you should be kicking.
If you cant kick a ball like that, NOW is the time to learn!

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

If the situation that you described above occurs, I don't care who you are, you should be kicking.
If you cant kick a ball like that, NOW is the time to learn!

If you practiced what you preached, you wouldn't own a jump cue. I don't believe the jump cue should be in the game. But I've accepted it and purchased one, and use one. And, BTW, what's the difference between jumping a ball 3" away from the cueball or 14" away? You could have kicked either shot. Don't ask what's wrong with me. If you're so good at kicking, don't bother with a jump cue discussion. And, I was talking about a shot where the cueball is within an inch of the rail DEAD blocker. You'd have to kick at least 3 rails to make the ball. If I have the ability to jump that ball rather than kick, guess what I'm doing? I'm AIRing your ass out of the tourney.

 

[AMoney]

If you practiced what you preached, you wouldn't own a jump cue. I don't believe the jump cue should be in the game. But I've accepted it and purchased one, and use one. And, BTW, what's the difference between jumping a ball 3" away from the cueball or 14" away? You could have kicked either shot. Don't ask what's wrong with me. If you're so good at kicking, don't bother with a jump cue discussion. And, I was talking about a shot where the cueball is within an inch of the rail DEAD blocker. You'd have to kick at least 3 rails to make the ball. If I have the ability to jump that ball rather than kick, guess what I'm doing? I'm AIRing your ass out of the tourney.

Yes, I have a jump/break cue, but I have actually broke it down and jumped with it maybe 1 or 2 times in the past month, and thats playing daily.
I do practice what I preach, thank you very much
Whether I like it or not jump cues have changed the game, and that is why I own one.

I said that in the situation YOU described, that close to a blocking ball with no other balls to block your path you should be kicking.

The only time I do jump is when a kick is blocked by other balls on the table.
I always look for a kicking path first, then if I have to I resort to jumping

And maybe you should be more specific then, as I see you are changing the situation now...

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

The only time I do jump is when a kick is blocked by other balls on the table.
I always look for a kicking path first, then if I have to I resort to jumping

Then you're better than 98% of the pro's that play the game. In easily 70% of the hooks I've seen on TV matches, when faced with a shot that could be kicked or jumped, every pro jumped the ball. Easy one rail kicks were available, yet they jumped. Why is that? If they allow jump cues, then they're allowed any time, not just when you don't have an available kicking route. And, what's easier? Like Grady said, it takes years to learn to kick well, and half an hour to learn how to jump.

I wish the game rewarded good safety play. Unfortunately, it doesn't. And why, tell me, would I propose a jump shot over a ball 3" away if there was an easy kick? And, if you could actually read, we were talking about performance in regards to jump cues. If one allows you to pull these types of shots off (I couldn't do this with a Bunjee or my Sledgehammer), I'm saying it has an advantage. I can put a ball 3" away from the cueball and go over it without much effort. I've nutted 3 rail kick shots, only to follow the OB in with the CB. I make a great shot and still scratch. Now I can cut the ball and get shape on the money ball. No-brainer.

 

[John Barton]

OK, review your own products then and let's see if you have some unfavorable reviews of them such as false advertising or misrepresentation.
And even if you are 100% correct in your review, you are still desparaging Predator b/c you don't sell them and you sell a competing brands/s.
It'd be like someone who distributes JBL speakers posting on the forum and disproving Bose's product claims/advertisement.
IT's still competition desparaging.

Let me ask you then how is one supposed to go about it when a competing product claims to be the best and another company disagrees with that assertion?

We are just talking business theory here.

If I have product A and you have product B and I say that product A is the best in the industry what does that make your product? Inferior to mine. Am I not disparaging your product by claiming mine to be better?

If mine is better should I claim that?

If mine is not better should I claim that it is?

Please tell me how businesses should market their products so that no one is disparaged?

Do you not have the right to challenge my claims of superiority if you sell product B?

I don't see how in the WORLD I am disparaging Predator when I clearly sate that in my opinion, based on my extensive experience, that my findings are such and such. If so then are they not disparaging all other jump cues by saying that in their opinion, based on their extensive experience, that their findings are such and such?

How is it a disparaging remark to say that the cue is good but not "the best"? God forbid that I disagree with a marketing statement. I am positive that you find some in our catalog that I also disagree with, I don't write all the copy for all the products we carry. We also carry products that I don't personally recommend and when asked my opinion as to why I give it freely.

That doesn't mean however that others don't get great satisfaction out of the products I don't like.

And I generally don't appoint myself to be the reviewer of all products because I would throw out half of the crap that is on the market currently and replace it with crap that really works well. And that applies to all the crap sold by all the companies that sell it. Us included.

But in some cases - like cases and jump cues - I happen to have more than a passing interest and so I speak up frequently about these tow subjects. You know this, you have known it for years and years and years.

So now, for whatever reason, you want to make this about purely competition. Ok great. Then we will make it about pure competition.

Predator claims their jump cue is the best. (most accurate). I claim that it is not more accurate than a Fury Jump Cue. There. Simple. Two competing companies two competing statements. Try both cues and decide for yourself.

But wait, perhaps we should try and define what is meant by "accuracy" so that we are on the same page. Who gets to define that? Predator because they make the claim? Okay, then I'd like to throw in the word "control" and the word "comfort" and the word "feel" as well to add some other factors that I happen to think are important in this discussion.

Unless of course you feel that because Predator has made a strong statement of superiority then it should go uncontested and unchallenged. Is that how you feel? Should a strong business be allowed to make such statements of superiority without challenge simply because they have a "name"?

Predator is more than welcome to come on this forum and explain to all of us how they arrived at the claim of being the best. Nothing could be better for consumers than to see various manufacturers having to interact with their prospective customers and back up their claims. Nothing could be better for dealers who want to sell those products than to be able to be on solid ground when repeating the claims of the suppliers.

Or am I missing something here?

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I completely back John on this one (waiting to hear another "thud"). The consumers and people within the industry have the right to question claims made by others. John hasn't slagged the Predator Air at all. He just hasn't seen any noticeable advantage over standard jump cues. His point is that an ultralight jumper allows you to do some things, but at a price. I tried all of my jump cues today after John's posts, and he has some valid points. As a jump cue consumer, you have to ask what you want out of your jump cue. That's what I think he was trying to get at.

 

[incidentslip]

Agreeing with Shawn & John, nothing has clear superiority, tonight after league, a friend and I put a few jump & J/B's we own to the test. He is a better(more accurate) jumper than I am, although I do tend to get much more height on a given shot when I need it. We both agreed, nothing was perfect at everything(although the Pred. Air hasn't arrived yet). Since I live up in the middle of nowhere Canada, we don't have dealers nearby with product to test, so like John replied to my earlier post , we gotta buy it to try it . So far nothing has shown clear superiority at everything so the claims are more like hype. I like Predator shafts, but to say that they are the best shafts on the market for everything, is stretching it a bit. I get a much livlier c/b with a Falcon shaft that has over 40gr/inch, and can draw, follow and spin the c/b better with a break(Sumo) tip, than I can with a Predator 314/Sniper tip, with better feedback. The Predator may have it beat in deflection, which was always it's claim to fame, but it's not the best at everything...that's the point John is trying to make and I agree with him. No product should make that claim, there are always trade-off's one way or the other. If that miracle product does, ever come along...halleluya!!! But as it stands, figure out what a product's strength's and weaknesses are...and use them to your advantage...but always keep your mind and your options open...Excalibur ain't here yet

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Agreeing with Shawn & John, nothing has clear superiority, tonight after league, a friend and I put a few jump & J/B's we own to the test. He is a better(more accurate) jumper than I am, although I do tend to get much more height on a given shot when I need it. We both agreed, nothing was perfect at everything(although the Pred. Air hasn't arrived yet). Since I live up in the middle of nowhere Canada, we don't have dealers nearby with product to test, so like John replied to my earlier post , we gotta buy it to try it . So far nothing has shown clear superiority at everything so the claims are more like hype. I like Predator shafts, but to say that they are the best shafts on the market for everything, is stretching it a bit. I get a much livlier c/b with a Falcon shaft that has over 40gr/inch, and can draw, follow and spin the c/b better with a break(Sumo) tip, than I can with a Predator 314/Sniper tip, with better feedback. The Predator may have it beat in deflection, which was always it's claim to fame, but it's not the best at everything...that's the point John is trying to make and I agree with him. No product should make that claim, there are always trade-off's one way or the other. If that miracle product does, ever come along...halleluya!!! But as it stands, figure out what a product's strength's and weaknesses are...and use them to your advantage...but always keep your mind and your options open...Excalibur ain't here yet

Let me know when you want to try my Air. I can ship it up to you, and when you're done, ship it back. I only use them for tourney play, and haven't got one coming up for awhile due to travel with business, and starting a new job soon. Also, I have a Pred dealer close who is a buddy of mine. He usually has stuff in stock, and could get it out to you.