"Taper Roll"

[ratcues]

If your chuck is not fairly true your shaft can point off and have to be bent to get the live center up against it and that can cause one side to sand more than the other.

If your chuck or driver is not faily true, you shouldn't be working on cues...

Here are the reasons a cue may not roll straight;

1. Butt is warped
2. Shaft is warped
3. Face(s) not perpendicular to axis of cue.
4. Male connecting pin not concentric to axis of cue.
5. Female threads not concentric to axis of cue.

IMO, 4 and 5 are what is being described as "taper roll." Anyone that sands one side of a shaft more than the other also shouldn't working on cues.

 

[Russell Cues]

If your chuck or driver is not faily true, you shouldn't be working on cues...
.
5. Female threads not concentric to axis of cue.

IMO, 4 and 5 are what is being described as "taper roll." Anyone that sands one side of a shaft more than the other also shouldn't working on cues.

Number 5, I had this happen to me 2 weeks ago, drove me nuts !! I had tapped threads in a shaft, now I am obsessive about keeping my chuck near zero and I keep everything in alignment. Some how, even with a tapping aid, the maple was softer on one side? the tap took more off one side than the other? I bored the back of the shaft, filled it with purpleheart and started fresh. I didnt change the alignment of anything, But the second time around it was dead nuts !

So it is possible to have some, maybe sugar, in the shaft you cant see and the tape not cut the same on all sides. Its not likely but I saw it happen right before my eyes. And like I sadi before, I didnt re-align my tailstock or bore my jaws, I just started over and it was perfect then.

Food for thought. That could cause the "taper roll" as the pin could grab a little different each time you put the cue together even if you "sanded" the shaft flush to the joint.

 

[scdiveteam]

I would think that the majority of cues with uneven sanding is because of hand-sanding by the owners of the cues...not machine sanding.

Ryan,

Before I was getting an almost perfect RMS finish with saw machines and was using a router I had to sand the little tool rings out while spinning.

Because the hardness of the shaft is harder on the grain end of the rod if you do a lot of sanding on some shafts they will pancake and become oblong on a cross section. I have had it happen with the router set up years ago.

When it is rolled, you can see light under the shaft. You can mic them and see the differential at 90 degrees.

The better your tapering process rms finish, the better the end product with very little sanding.

JMO,

Rick

 

[cueman]

If your chuck or driver is not faily true, you shouldn't be working on cues...

Here are the reasons a cue may not roll straight;

1. Butt is warped
2. Shaft is warped
3. Face(s) not perpendicular to axis of cue.
4. Male connecting pin not concentric to axis of cue.
5. Female threads not concentric to axis of cue.

IMO, 4 and 5 are what is being described as "taper roll." Anyone that sands one side of a shaft more than the other also shouldn't working on cues.

Chuck and driver could be true and the insert in the shaft could be off slightly and that would also cause the shaft to point off. The face could do the same thing. Even your lathe is about as true as they come, if you put a 29" perfectly ground steel rod in your chuck I would guess you would find out that there are at least several thousandths of run out on the very end. That means even with perfect drivers you still have to bend the shaft slightly to put it into the live center.

 

[ratcues]

Chuck and driver could be true and the insert in the shaft could be off slightly and that would also cause the shaft to point off. The face could do the same thing. Even your lathe is about as true as they come, if you put a 29" perfectly ground steel rod in your chuck I would guess you would find out that there are at least several thousandths of run out on the very end. That means even with perfect drivers you still have to bend the shaft slightly to put it into the live center.

The insert would have to be off by a lot to make such a difference to see when rolled then described as a taper roll. Either way, the problem in your example would be covered by my points 3 and 5. Any cue maker worth his salt could face the shaft and indicate it to run true even if the insert is not concentric to the axis.

 

[cueman]

The insert would have to be off by a lot to make such a difference to see when rolled then described as a taper roll. Either way, the problem in your example would be covered by my points 3 and 5. Any cue maker worth his salt could face the shaft and indicate it to run true even if the insert is not concentric to the axis.

I would never assume a customer would want me to face their shaft off in order to make it spin true in my lathe. Many piloted inserts are not faced and most lathe pins are flat faced and join up to the insert instead of the shaft face. Therefore the little stress relief trick I shared works good without you doing any modifications to their shaft.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Is this where a steady rest, bearing and a collet away from where people usually sand the shaft collar to match sanding mandrels have some use ?
If you indicate a shaft collar that has been block sanded to match a sanding mandrel, it might drive you nuts.
It makes a good case for using the butt it came with as the mandrel. Assuming the joint screw is concentric/straight. Assuming that too was not block sanded.

 

[scdiveteam]

Number 5, I had this happen to me 2 weeks ago, drove me nuts !! I had tapped threads in a shaft, now I am obsessive about keeping my chuck near zero and I keep everything in alignment. Some how, even with a tapping aid, the maple was softer on one side? the tap took more off one side than the other? I bored the back of the shaft, filled it with purpleheart and started fresh. I didnt change the alignment of anything, But the second time around it was dead nuts !

So it is possible to have some, maybe sugar, in the shaft you cant see and the tape not cut the same on all sides. Its not likely but I saw it happen right before my eyes. And like I sadi before, I didnt re-align my tailstock or bore my jaws, I just started over and it was perfect then.

Food for thought. That could cause the "taper roll" as the pin could grab a little different each time you put the cue together even if you "sanded" the shaft flush to the joint.

Hi Tony,

Here is an easy way to maintain a concetricity with female shaft threads to the shaft. I use concentricity drive pins with a 60 degree center. When doing this procedure there is no need for a collet or indicating and it is held tight in my six jaw.

After facing and threading a shaft at .890 while chucking on the wood, I install these devices, install my ferrule, recenter the tip end and then tapper the shaft. The centerline X Axis will always run true with my taper and is perpendicular to the face. No facing later.

These pins stay in the shaft until the finish is done. All sealing, sanding, epoxying, spraying and buffing is done driving off the device also. It works so good that I never test roll the cue until it is completely finished when I remove them. I have that much confidence in the repeatability of the method. Perfect every time.

Rick

Concentricity drive pins installed after facing and tapping the shaft between .890 and .900 when rings are installed. When I take a butt off the butt tapering machine and joint the shaft, they match up every time.

Ferrules and tenon centers run perfectly concentric also.

After re centering the shaft while it is held very close to the chuck on my ferrule end, I re chuck holding the shaft in the chuck, rear chuck and live center while turing the tenon. This prevents any push off and the tenon is perfectly concentric to the OD of the ferrule, every time.

No collets or indicating needed, just chuck tight then step drill and tap threads, no need for boring. After the first pass on the tapering machine with the devices installed as the driver, the X center and female threads run concentric to the taper cut every time. Only takes about 5 minutes.

 

[Cue Crazy]

Is this where a steady rest, bearing and a collet away from where people usually sand the shaft collar to match sanding mandrels have some use ?
If you indicate a shaft collar that has been block sanded to match a sanding mandrel, it might drive you nuts.
It makes a good case for using the butt it came with as the mandrel. Assuming the joint screw is concentric/straight. Assuming that too was not block sanded.

It was 3/8 so not a brass insert, but I just re threaded a second shaft for someone that was stripped, and had to do just that. The pin was close but was not perfectly concentric to the OD, and out a hair, although it was still close enough to work that way. I shimmed the collar of the handle until I indicated to dead zero, turned My plug off of the pin to fit the bore that I made in the shaft, then slipped It over,found the sweet spot where the collars matched up flush all the way around, and l marked the location on both the plug and shaft in relation to each other, so that I could easily match them up when gluing. I didn't want to screw with the face and open up another can of worms, so I cut a piece of tape in the shape of a washer to protect It from the glue, so that I would not have to reface to clean It up. In the end the shaft was basically in the the same location as original, joint collars were flush, the tip stayed down, and no bad roll. I didn't have to sand anything out of round, build finish or anything silly like that, and in fact the collars matched up so well that I didn't even have to do any finish work at all.. The person I did the work for knows a lot more about cues then the average person, so he understood what I had to deal with, was pleased with the outcome, and was particularly happy at how flush they turned out, as if he expected them to be off. He originally wanted me to make a new shaft, but I suggested It would be more cost effective to plug the original. The shaft was in decent condition, just stripped out. Anyway he was satisfied with the outcome, and I didn't have to pull as much hair out in the process..

 

[JoeyInCali]

It was 3/8 so not a brass insert, but I just re threaded a second shaft for someone that was stripped, and had to do just that. The pin was close but was not perfectly concentric to the OD, and out a hair, although it was still close enough to work that way. I shimmed the collar of the handle until I indicated to dead zero, turned My plug off of the pin to fit the bore that I made in the shaft, then slipped It over,found the sweet spot where the collars matched up flush all the way around, and l marked the location on both the plug and shaft in relation to each other, so that I could easily match them up when gluing. I didn't want to screw with the face and open up another can of worms, so I cut a piece of tape in the shape of a washer to protect It from the glue, so that I would not have to reface to clean It up. In the end the shaft was basically in the the same location as original, joint collars were flush, the tip stayed down, and no bad roll. I didn't have to sand anything out of round, build finish or anything silly like that, and in fact the collars matched up so well that I didn't even have to do any finish work at all.. The person I did the work for knows a lot more about cues then the average person, so he understood what I had to deal with, was pleased with the outcome, and was particularly happy at how flush they turned out, as if he expected them to be off. He originally wanted me to make a new shaft, but I suggested It would be more cost effective to plug the original. The shaft was in decent condition, just stripped out. Anyway he was satisfied with the outcome, and I didn't have to pull as much hair out in the process..

Great job Greg.
Thanks for sharing.
No infommercials, just sharing of repair experience.

 

[pdcue]

Great job Greg.
Thanks for sharing.
No infommercials, just sharing of repair experience.

Wait, wait, don't tell me...

You mean this isn't the Ask The Cuemaker So He Can Answer With An Infomercial Forum?

Tho there were some pretty slick tricks in this one.

Dale(the word for today is Concentricity)

 

[scdiveteam]

Great job Greg.
Thanks for sharing.
No infommercials, just sharing of repair experience.

Number 5, I had this happen to me 2 weeks ago, drove me nuts !! I had tapped threads in a shaft, now I am obsessive about keeping my chuck near zero and I keep everything in alignment. Some how, even with a tapping aid, the maple was softer on one side? the tap took more off one side than the other? I bored the back of the shaft, filled it with purpleheart and started fresh. I didnt change the alignment of anything, But the second time around it was dead nuts !

So it is possible to have some, maybe sugar, in the shaft you cant see and the tape not cut the same on all sides. Its not likely but I saw it happen right before my eyes. And like I sadi before, I didnt re-align my tailstock or bore my jaws, I just started over

and it was perfect then.

Food for thought. That could cause the "taper roll" as the pin could grab a little different each time you put the cue together even if you "sanded" the shaft flush to the joint.

Hi,

I was responding to a thread on taper roll and specifically to the post by Tony of Russell Cues (quoted above). He did not speak of cue repair in his post so I thought I would share something that I thought was especially germane about female threads running true with the X centerline of a tapered unit. Tony's sharing about his PH plug is evidence that shaft inserts of denser material make for a better outcome in this area and I agree with his statement and observations.

If you want to talk cue repair with Greg that's up to you but don't assume that I was doing the same. BTW, from the infomercial expert myself, informercial only has 1 m.

Call it informercial or whatever, you don't have to read my post, if you don't like it, just keep scrolling page down or go home and keep making your Plane Jane and act like a creep in front of the mirror where there is at least one fan to admire your mindless reoccurring circular bull crap. If I had shared this esoteric information without showing pics and narrative details it would not have made any sense to anyone since it is not a typical technique that you would see in cue making videos ect.

Anyone who understands and knows how to read and comprehend will see I was sharing information that was hypersensitive and relative to Tony's remarks.

This particular thread is not about cue repair it is about concentricity among other variables relating to roll after joining a 2 piece cue. The information and method that I took my precious time to submit eliminates those variables by a factor of 100%. Thank you.

This form is about acting professional and people who wish to share information back and forth. Not for mindless part time practitioner trolls who are looking to make snide remarks and act clever.:barf: That is stupid and non productive and a waste of everyone's time. There are those who constantly raise the bar of expectation and progress in a discipline and there are those who stagnate and wish to bring everyone down to there sorry level of awareness. That's the way I see it.

One has to read and comprehend to understand things that are advanced beyond the 101 level and apparently some people just can't read I guess.

My suggestion to any idiot who can't read and comprehend is to go to a local community college in your area and take a class in reading comprehension! :kma::rotflmao1:

Rick

 

[Murray Tucker]

IMHO taper roll is the joint collar not being concentric to the center line of the shaft. The shaft is straight but when you roll it you see movement.

Anything else is a warp.

 

[cueman]

IMHO taper roll is the joint collar not being concentric to the center line of the shaft. The shaft is straight but when you roll it you see movement.

Anything else is a warp.

Our definitions for taper roll are the same.
I agree everything else is warp, with the exception of poorly sanded shafts.
I guess we need a term to describe poorly sanded shafts also.
IMO most poorly sanded shafts are usually player abuse and not done by the cue repairmen although it is possible for the repairman to do it if they heavy sand the shaft without making sure the shaft is stress free in their lathe. The player often sands their shaft with sandpaper or Scotch-brite type pads lengthwise and sand more off one side than the other.
I doubt any term we come up with for poorly sanded shafts would make anyone feel any better than just calling it warped. For example: "Egg shaped shaft" does not sound any better than "warped shaft" to me.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Wait, wait, don't tell me...

You mean this isn't the Ask The Cuemaker So He Can Answer With An Infomercial Forum?

Tho there were some pretty slick tricks in this one.

Dale(the word for today is Concentricity)

Pump and Dump section.

4-jaw chuck is the nuts of course as you said before Dale.