Tapering. CNC vs lathe...

Kim Bye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Tapering shafts with my Deluxe Cuesmith lathe is kinda cumbersome.
I think I would like to have a more dedicated tapering setup.
I`ve been looking at buying a 4 axis CNC and using that for tapering instead of the lathe.
Is CNC the way to go or should I look at machines like the Taper Shaper from Unique?
 
I am at the same question myself.
I am thinking 4th axis cnc, so also keen on any replies also. That is why I had so many questions about the cheap harmonic drives and a separate spinner station.
I like the idea of cnc, as you can have more control of the process, ie rpm and feed rate and then the geometry control. For me it is the learning of Mach3 /4 and then whatever is required for the programing side. I am very familiar with Gcode, but I am not real flash on 3d modelling yet, not like others I know.
Neil
 
I am at the same question myself.
I am thinking 4th axis cnc, so also keen on any replies also. That is why I had so many questions about the cheap harmonic drives and a separate spinner station.
I like the idea of cnc, as you can have more control of the process, ie rpm and feed rate and then the geometry control. For me it is the learning of Mach3 /4 and then whatever is required for the programing side. I am very familiar with Gcode, but I am not real flash on 3d modelling yet, not like others I know.
Neil

I`m a total CNC noob myself, so I expect a steep learning curve. But everything this far has been learned by trial and error and it`s worked out so far.
A 4 axis CNC is very tempting as space is a premium.
Im not sure, but I`m guessing it`s poosible to store different designs and tapers as files on the computer, so the next time I need a spesific taper, I can just load the file?
I`ve seen videos where the CNC is eqipped with a feeler gage, so I assume I can just run it down shafts with tapers I like and store the measurements?
 
Tapering shafts with my Deluxe Cuesmith lathe is kinda cumbersome.
I think I would like to have a more dedicated tapering setup.
I`ve been looking at buying a 4 axis CNC and using that for tapering instead of the lathe.
Is CNC the way to go or should I look at machines like the Taper Shaper from Unique?

I would strongly recommend you call Todd at Mid American.

Dale
 
Tapering shafts with my Deluxe Cuesmith lathe is kinda cumbersome.
I think I would like to have a more dedicated tapering setup.
I`ve been looking at buying a 4 axis CNC and using that for tapering instead of the lathe.
Is CNC the way to go or should I look at machines like the Taper Shaper from Unique?

Why do you think you need 4 axis machine to use as a tapering machine? All you need is x,y and rotation and it can be controlled with a simple motor ot a stepper. And anyone with a brain can build one for around a couple grand or not much more.
 
As I was reading this thread, I was thinking the same thing as Joe Baker above. A 4-axis configuration is not necessary for a tapering operation. Only X and Y and a variable speed motor to spin the shaft. Also, if it is your first foray into CNC, a 4-axis machine is going to slow you down considerably, whereas a 2-axis machine will be easier and faster to build. Agreed, if you only have space for a single setup, you'll eventually get more bang for your buck with the full monty, but it may take you a year or longer to build the whole thing and then there's a pretty steep learning curve on the CAD/CAM software. You can write 2-axis GCode routines in Notepad.
Kim, you are correct in that you can store any number of tapering patterns as files on your computer and then load them back up as needed.
My 2 cents,
Gary
 
Why do you think you need 4 axis machine to use as a tapering machine? All you need is x,y and rotation and it can be controlled with a simple motor ot a stepper. And anyone with a brain can build one for around a couple grand or not much more.

I don't think i need 4 axis for tapering, but the price jump up to a full 4axis set up, that enables me to do alot of other stuff is not that big anymore.
Todds tapering solution is clever, but I think a separate CNC with a 48" bed might be a better solution in the long run.
 
A cnc version would give you unlimited taper profile.
But, can it hold .001" tolerance?
 
But, can it hold .001" tolerance?

That`s why I`m asking :D
I`m considering a 24" x 48" Raptor.
I gave up on reading the super technical "best "affordable 4axis" thread. So I`m not sure if it`s the way to go, but keep in mind, I want be churning out lots of cues, mostly doing retapers, triming partial down to fit the butt and stuff like that.
Sure I`ll build some cues, but for now, that`s not the main focus.
 
That`s why I`m asking :D
I`m considering a 24" x 48" Raptor.
I gave up on reading the super technical "best "affordable 4axis" thread. So I`m not sure if it`s the way to go, but keep in mind, I want be churning out lots of cues, mostly doing retapers, triming partial down to fit the butt and stuff like that.
Sure I`ll build some cues, but for now, that`s not the main focus.

I say get a good metal lathe.
 
No

A cnc version would give you unlimited taper profile.
But, can it hold .001" tolerance?

No my cnc doesn't have that repeatability , regardless I am still using my cnc to cut tapers .


I have DIY cnc 75 X 24 Y 8.5 Z and mounted my TSP Lathe on my CNC
 
A cnc version would give you unlimited taper profile.
But, can it hold .001" tolerance?

If it can't hold a .001" tolerance it's not a good CNC machine to begin with.

The only things necessary for ANY tapering machine are control over two axes ("X" and "Z"), a method for smoothly rotating the part, and a cutterhead. This is why there are so many different configurations out there - including the relatively "crude" traveling frames mounted on tables saws. On a side note, I used a tablesaw rig for years, and that same unit is currently being used by Jerry McWorter - in case anyone mistakenly thinks I am disparaging that method.

As for the concern about a "learning curve", I own a lot of very sophisticated programming software - easily capable of full 5-axis work. However, I almost always write tapering programs directly on the computer that runs my machine, using only paper and pencil, and a pocket calculator. This is because G-code programs for such a machine are SO simple it's not worth creating a CAD drawing to begin with.

For example, suppose we want to cut a nose piece to be 12" long, with a diameter of 0.850" at one end, and a diameter of 1.050" at the other. Ignoring opening program statements, feed rates, and initial rapid moves, the significant portion of that program would look like this:

G01 X0.425 Z0.0
G01 X0.525 Z12.0

That's it! That's the entire code necessary to cut the above described taper. Now obviously a more complex or compound taper would require more complex code,but the real point is if you can draw out what you want (for a turned shape) on piece of paper and apply numerical values to it you can easily write the code to cut it. In the above example I assumed machine software that was NOT setup for diameter cutting, so I used half the desired diameters for the X-axis values. In the real world most lathe-suitable software (e.g., Mach3) allows you to use full diameters written into your G-code, with the software configured to automatically divide those values in half for the X-axis travels.

A few other points:
It's a very good idea to rotate your part using a variable speed motor, and also to be able to vary the speed of your cutterhead. With the additional ability to vary your travels speeds in the G-code program you can very precisely dial in those three variables to give you a very accurate, butter-smooth finish on your cuts.

If you are building your own CNC tapering machine it's important to be a precise as possible in your construction. That said, you can very easily "tweak" your G-code to negate any misalignment you might have between your headstock and tailstock. For example, suppose you ran the above example G-code and your small end came out perfect but your large end was 1.070" diameter (instead of the desired 1.050"). You could simply edit the second line of code to read: G01 X0.515 - thereby reducing the large diameter by the 0.020" it was oversize.

Once you have any particular G-code program perfected you have it forever. The number of these programs you can have stored is only limited by the size of your hard drive, and since a typical tapering program will only be 1 or 2 kb in size you could literally have millions of different tapers "in stock". Imagine having a warehouse full of manual taper bars at your disposal...

I haven't use a manual tapering machine in well over 2 decades, and I would never go back. Why would you drive a horse and buggy when you can easily own and operate a pickup truck?

TW

 
I say get a good metal lathe.

That would be great, if I had the space. But I dont have the space to fit a 1000 + lbs lathe.
The 11" x 28" I have is about 500 lbs and it was a pain to get in.
So I have to work around that problem.
 
No my cnc doesn't have that repeatability , regardless I am still using my cnc to cut tapers .


I have DIY cnc 75 X 24 Y 8.5 Z and mounted my TSP Lathe on my CNC

Can't taper to .002" of the sanding mandrel then.

I'll wait to see XZero cnc lathe.
 


If it can't hold a .001" tolerance it's not a good CNC machine to begin with.

The only things necessary for ANY tapering machine are control over two axes ("X" and "Z"), a method for smoothly rotating the part, and a cutterhead. This is why there are so many different configurations out there - including the relatively "crude" traveling frames mounted on tables saws. On a side note, I used a tablesaw rig for years, and that same unit is currently being used by Jerry McWorter - in case anyone mistakenly thinks I am disparaging that method.

As for the concern about a "learning curve", I own a lot of very sophisticated programming software - easily capable of full 5-axis work. However, I almost always write tapering programs directly on the computer that runs my machine, using only paper and pencil, and a pocket calculator. This is because G-code programs for such a machine are SO simple it's not worth creating a CAD drawing to begin with.

For example, suppose we want to cut a nose piece to be 12" long, with a diameter of 0.850" at one end, and a diameter of 1.050" at the other. Ignoring opening program statements, feed rates, and initial rapid moves, the significant portion of that program would look like this:

G01 X0.425 Z0.0
G01 X0.525 Z12.0

That's it! That's the entire code necessary to cut the above described taper. Now obviously a more complex or compound taper would require more complex code,but the real point is if you can draw out what you want (for a turned shape) on piece of paper and apply numerical values to it you can easily write the code to cut it. In the above example I assumed machine software that was NOT setup for diameter cutting, so I used half the desired diameters for the X-axis values. In the real world most lathe-suitable software (e.g., Mach3) allows you to use full diameters written into your G-code, with the software configured to automatically divide those values in half for the X-axis travels.

A few other points:
It's a very good idea to rotate your part using a variable speed motor, and also to be able to vary the speed of your cutterhead. With the additional ability to vary your travels speeds in the G-code program you can very precisely dial in those three variables to give you a very accurate, butter-smooth finish on your cuts.

If you are building your own CNC tapering machine it's important to be a precise as possible in your construction. That said, you can very easily "tweak" your G-code to negate any misalignment you might have between your headstock and tailstock. For example, suppose you ran the above example G-code and your small end came out perfect but your large end was 1.070" diameter (instead of the desired 1.050"). You could simply edit the second line of code to read: G01 X0.515 - thereby reducing the large diameter by the 0.020" it was oversize.

Once you have any particular G-code program perfected you have it forever. The number of these programs you can have stored is only limited by the size of your hard drive, and since a typical tapering program will only be 1 or 2 kb in size you could literally have millions of different tapers "in stock". Imagine having a warehouse full of manual taper bars at your disposal...

I haven't use a manual tapering machine in well over 2 decades, and I would never go back. Why would you drive a horse and buggy when you can easily own and operate a pickup truck?

TW


Thanks for the information, if it`s that simple I`m gonna do fine :)
 


If it can't hold a .001" tolerance it's not a good CNC machine to begin with.

The only things necessary for ANY tapering machine are control over two axes ("X" and "Z"), a method for smoothly rotating the part, and a cutterhead. This is why there are so many different configurations out there - including the relatively "crude" traveling frames mounted on tables saws. On a side note, I used a tablesaw rig for years, and that same unit is currently being used by Jerry McWorter - in case anyone mistakenly thinks I am disparaging that method.

As for the concern about a "learning curve", I own a lot of very sophisticated programming software - easily capable of full 5-axis work. However, I almost always write tapering programs directly on the computer that runs my machine, using only paper and pencil, and a pocket calculator. This is because G-code programs for such a machine are SO simple it's not worth creating a CAD drawing to begin with.

For example, suppose we want to cut a nose piece to be 12" long, with a diameter of 0.850" at one end, and a diameter of 1.050" at the other. Ignoring opening program statements, feed rates, and initial rapid moves, the significant portion of that program would look like this:

G01 X0.425 Z0.0
G01 X0.525 Z12.0

That's it! That's the entire code necessary to cut the above described taper. Now obviously a more complex or compound taper would require more complex code,but the real point is if you can draw out what you want (for a turned shape) on piece of paper and apply numerical values to it you can easily write the code to cut it. In the above example I assumed machine software that was NOT setup for diameter cutting, so I used half the desired diameters for the X-axis values. In the real world most lathe-suitable software (e.g., Mach3) allows you to use full diameters written into your G-code, with the software configured to automatically divide those values in half for the X-axis travels.

A few other points:
It's a very good idea to rotate your part using a variable speed motor, and also to be able to vary the speed of your cutterhead. With the additional ability to vary your travels speeds in the G-code program you can very precisely dial in those three variables to give you a very accurate, butter-smooth finish on your cuts.

If you are building your own CNC tapering machine it's important to be a precise as possible in your construction. That said, you can very easily "tweak" your G-code to negate any misalignment you might have between your headstock and tailstock. For example, suppose you ran the above example G-code and your small end came out perfect but your large end was 1.070" diameter (instead of the desired 1.050"). You could simply edit the second line of code to read: G01 X0.515 - thereby reducing the large diameter by the 0.020" it was oversize.

Once you have any particular G-code program perfected you have it forever. The number of these programs you can have stored is only limited by the size of your hard drive, and since a typical tapering program will only be 1 or 2 kb in size you could literally have millions of different tapers "in stock". Imagine having a warehouse full of manual taper bars at your disposal...

I haven't use a manual tapering machine in well over 2 decades, and I would never go back. Why would you drive a horse and buggy when you can easily own and operate a pickup truck?

TW


I had one and wrote the codes like you described.
Even included the 4" tenon at the bottom of the handle .
Crashed it twice and milled the dead center.:D Fried the routers too.
It sure was fast in whipping out coring dowels , shafts and handles.
Dust was a big problem though.
I could not get it to be as accurate as I wanted.
Dismantled it and went back to manual.
I learned since then, fast ball screws and xylotex controller were not the best of components for our use.
 
I PMed Kim to ask why he was finding it cumbersome to taper with his lathe. He said he is getting good tapering cuts, but finds it difficult to keep readjusting the taper bar to experiment with different tapers. I have a 4 head CNC tapering machine myself that Bludworth built for me years ago. It does make changing tapers on shafts pretty simple. So a dedicated CNC tapering machine makes the most sense if you want unlimited tapers.

If the budget or space does not allow a separate CNC machine then my suggestion is add the removable shaft taper bar option to your lathe and buy additional taper bars. That way once you get one set like you like it for one shaft taper you can mark it and put another one on and set it up for a different taper. Most cuemakers have found that 3 or 4 shaft tapers works out pretty well. You can also adjust joint size to match the different tip diameters simply by adjusting how far your dead center is sticking out of your headstock. So the additional taper bars are just for stiffness profiles and not needed for different tip diameters.
 
TheMostInterestingManInTheWorld_1426.jpg

I don't always agree with Thomas Wayne, but when I do, it is wholeheartedly, as in this instance.
:smile:
Gary
 
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