Tell me about TAP...

[Qnut]

I have played (and still do) both APA and TAP. I have been in the APA for about 8 years now, but am only in my 2nd session of TAP. Up until recently, TAP wasn't widely available in my area.

I can't speak of the money problems some have had, but I can say that we placed very high in the Dream Team event in Valley Forge this year, and we literally had the prize money in hand within an hour of getting knocked out (that includes a trip to cash the check). And yes, I'm sure the venders appreciated it since at least one teammate dropped his winnings on a new cue.

As far as handicaps go, the potential is there to sandbag in either system. It will be there in any system. I won't name names, but in a different tourney we played a team that had a TAP 3 S/L player who a couple of our guys knew. This player was an APA 7, but had sandbagged his way to a 3 in TAP. It can be done, and is done. I think the potential is there for TAP's handicapping system to be much better. Tracking balls left on the table and balls made on the break allows for a much greater understanding of how a match actually went. As mentioned earlier, the scoring system is a pain in the neck, but when we play matches we generally take turns scoring so the onus isn't on just one person to spend the whole night buried in paperwork.

I think the single biggest reason TAP is surging is that the league is set up to more readily handle better players. Combine the 25 rule (compared to the APA's 23), and the fact that player handicaps are generally 1 lower to start, and you can play a TAP squad that averages out at an APA 6 level. Good players can play together in TAP, when in the APA they would have to split up the team for handicap reasons.

This higher level of play also equates to more interesting games, better flow, and faster match times. In the APA, there's almost always at least one 3v3 or 2v3 match (and frequently more), and it is mind-numbing to have to watch players at this level bang balls around for an hour or more just to win a couple games. TAP may not be perfect, but it's a step up from the APA in my opinion.

~Chris

 

[catscradle]

...
As for people saying TAP handicaps are inaccurate, I beg to differ. I still run leagues in Western Pa. and compared to a APA handicap, in my opinion, TAP is far superior...
TAP VP of Sales

Personally, I don't care if the system is accurate or not. Any scoring system that is as tedious as TAP's was described as (I have no idea if that description is accurate BTW) is something I would personally have no interest in being involved in, it really does sound like keeping score could ruin an otherwise good night. Also my personal observations of people hanging in a bar trying to keep even the simple APA system would lead me to suspect that a lot is missed or guessed at, leading to faulty handicapping.
This is just my reaction to the scoring system as described, I have no interest in getting into an APA vs. TAP debate. I suspect both systems have their faults and their good points.

 

[Sam at TAP]

Thanks Chris for your support with TAP. Any kind of score keeping is a pain (especially when your downing a few beers) but a necessary evil if you want accurate handicaps. No handicap system is perfect and as long as there are players out there looking to cheat it than you will see players slip thru the cracks. I will go on record as saying that as a league operator, I personally have found that I have more problems with sandbagging with players coming into TAP from the APA than players that were never influenced by that league or that are new to league play all together. In my area, that is a fact.

I feel, in my opinion, that TAP's system is far superior to anything out there now. Just from the extra data we put into the computer each week. Just remember, if you put garbage in you get garbage back out. The system is as only good as the data you give it. ( I personally don't think the score keeping is as tedious as you say but I will agree that it is more involved than the APA score keeping) Since TAP is different than the APA system, anyone saying that a player is a APA 6 but only a TAP 5, than that player must be sandbagging, doesn't really know the TAP system. You can't compare the two although I will agree a player should not be 3 handicaps apart on either system.
As for the TAP 25 points and APA 23 points, in my opinion, the APA keeps their team handicap limit at 23 for one simple reason. So teams breakup quicker and spawn new teams. End result, more $ in the St. Louis coffers. Again, my opinion here.

As an after thought, of the 1,000 or so TAP players in Valley Forge this year only about 8 players were dqed. That's less than 1%. And I didn't hear one person say that they didn't get paid.

 

[linkui]

Thanks Chris for your support with TAP. Any kind of score keeping is a pain (especially when your downing a few beers) but a necessary evil if you want accurate handicaps. No handicap system is perfect and as long as there are players out there looking to cheat it than you will see players slip thru the cracks. But I feel , in my opinion, that TAP's system is far superior to anything out there now. Just from the extra data we put into the computer each week. Just remember, if you put garbage in you get garbage back out. The system is as only good as the data you give it. Since TAP is different than the APA system, anyone saying that a player is a APA 6 but only a TAP 5, than that player must be sandbagging, doesn't really know the TAP system. You can't compare the two although I will agree a player should not be 3 handicaps apart on either system.
As for the TAP 25 points and APA 23 points, in my opinion, the APA keeps their team handicap limit at 23 for one simple reason. So teams breakup quicker and spawn new teams. End result, more $ in the St. Louis coffers. Again, my opinion here.

As an after thought, of the 1,000 or so TAP players in Valley Forge this year only about 8 players were dqed. That's less than 1%.

I guess there is different strokes for different folks. The way I see it, i want to be the best player I can be. I have some good nights, I have a LOT of bad nights. However, no matter what the other player's handicap is, the game is primarily against myself. If I play well, i dont have to worry about my opponent. If I beat someone who is under-ranked, good for me. If I lose, I need to work on my game, not their handicap.
Since TAP's induction into the military, we have a whole new breed of players, including those in other countries. Most of these guys are in the same frame of mind, they are happy to be doing something other than dodging bullets. They don't mind the scorekeeping because they like the competition, which i think is usually the case in the civilian world too. IMO, its all about the game, fun and competition run one in the same.

 

[catscradle]

...
As for the TAP 25 points and APA 23 points, in my opinion, the APA keeps their team handicap limit at 23 for one simple reason. So teams breakup quicker and spawn new teams. End result, more $ in the St. Louis coffers. Again, my opinion here.
...

Whether that is their motivation or not I don't know, it wouldn't surprise me as they are a business after all. However, I do think it also results in weaker, neophyte players getting a chance to play. True they can be very boring as another poster said, but I think if that's the price to pay to get new people in. I think I'd sometimes rather watch a struggling 2 miss balls because they're just uncoordinated and dorky, then watch some 4 who could be so much better miss balls because he just doesn't care enough to improve or because he's loaded.
I think any system, be it TAP, APA, BCA, ACS, or a house league, that give new people an oppourtunity to play is a good thing. The more people who play the more places there will be to play.

 

[linkui]

Whether that is their motivation or not I don't know, it wouldn't surprise me as they are a business after all. However, I do think it also results in weaker, neophyte players getting a chance to play. True they can be very boring as another poster said, but I think if that's the price to pay to get new people in. I think I'd sometimes rather watch a struggling 2 miss balls because they're just uncoordinated and dorky, then watch some 4 who could be so much better miss balls because he just doesn't care enough to improve or because he's loaded.
I think any system, be it TAP, APA, BCA, ACS, or a house league, that give new people an oppourtunity to play is a good thing. The more people who play the more places there will be to play.

Very well put. I couldn't agree more.

 

[chefjeff]

(snip)
I think any system, be it TAP, APA, BCA, ACS, or a house league, that give new people an oppourtunity to play is a good thing. The more people who play the more places there will be to play.

tap tap tap...er, I mean bca bca bca or vnea vnea vnea New people are the key to growth of the industry, I'd say. Good for apa and tap.

Now, if tap and apa GET new players into leagues, how can (and why would)these players go beyond these leagues to higher places? Question for thought, no need to reply.

Personally, I hate tracking every shot. There are leagues that don't require it where sandbagging is UNprofitable. In fact, the only leagues that seem to have sandbagging problems are those who do track every shot. Maybe there's a connection?

Jeff Livingston

 

[Sam at TAP]

The thing everyone must remember is TAP,APA, BCA, etc. are organizations selling entertainment. Your as a player are looking for two things, a night out and competition. If your looking to make living playing in pool leagues, than your in the wrong place. The money is there in all the leagues but let's face it, I never heard of anyone making a living playing in pool leagues. So why sandbag? As for players going onto something higher, let's face it 99.9% of the players are family people with 9-5 jobs looking for a relaxing night out with their friends and not looking to go pro.

 

[linkui]

The thing everyone must remember is TAP,APA, BCA, etc. are organizations selling entertainment. Your as a player are looking for two things, a night out and competition. If your looking to make living playing in pool leagues, than your in the wrong place. The money is there in all the leagues but let's face it, I never heard of anyone making a living playing in pool leagues. So why sandbag? As for players going onto something higher, let's face it 99.9% of the players are family people with 9-5 jobs looking for a relaxing night out with their friends and not looking to go pro.

Well, to an extent, yes. I think there are lots of guys and gals who would love to go pro. In fact, im sure a lot of the pro's played in one organization or another at some time. Competition, definitely. And fun, COME ON! Whats more fun than spending an entire weekend at a Titleholder or SBE or National event playing pool. Thats like a dream i dont want to wake from. I have literally played until i was so tired(or otherwise) that i couldnt remember to hold onto my cue!

 

[Sam at TAP]

I agree. Everyone that ever picked up a cue thought about going pro at one time or another. Or at least had a fleeting thought of it and than reality sets in and you realize that you just don't have the talent or maybe the bankroll to go pro. Or maybe both. That's where leagues come in. Work your day job and than shoot some pool on the side. And for those that still think they got it, there is always the Derby City for a reality check.

 

[rayjay]

Personally, I like the BCA. Different leagues have different flavors that appeal to different individuals. That's the spice of life...choices. It's all about having fun...see you in Las Vegas!

 

[chefjeff]

Personally, I like the BCA. Different leagues have different flavors that appeal to different individuals. That's the spice of life...choices. It's all about having fun...see you in Las Vegas!

Hey Johnson, Give 'em hell in Vegas. Wish I was going.

Jeff Livingston

 

[rayjay]

Gonna give it my best shot...am definitely gonna enjoy it! Maybe see you there next year, Jeff.

 

[FLICKit]

I was also at nationals and had to wait for my money as well. The fact of the matter was, this was something they had just tried out because of a hassle from the government, so i hear. Naturally, it didnt go over so well, with the players, or with the vendors at the tournament who were expecting to have all these winners with all this money coming out ready to spend. Lesson learned. Won't happen again.

Wow quite an interesting discussion has erupted!

Experience has shown, that if you don't want to get bamboozled, then you have to go beyond just listening to surface comments that sound good for obvious PR reasons. You have to get down into the details. Listen with a critical ear and see if it passes the test.

As was said, I have had experiences with TAP that clearly failed to pass that test. One or Two of them were even with you, Sam. I understand that sometimes threads are best not hijacked with a single experience, that just didn't go your way. Sometimes you have to be able to see both perspectives. But, I can go into details, if you'd really rather hear some of them.

Sometimes in life you have to admit that you're wrong, as a matter of simple integrity. It's not that hard, really. If you don't just confess up, then you have to spin a web of lies and deceits and cover-ups.


What does that mean, as far as you know, all the money has been paid out? Either all the money has been paid, or it hasn't. It's really just a matter of simple accounting. You have X amount in your prize fund as advertised. And you pay out Y amount from that account. Either X = Y or it doesn't.

When you say, "this was something they had just tried out because of a hassle from the government", are you really trying to say that someone made a conscious decision to use vouchers instead of paying the players? What was the rationale behind that? Sounds to me like that decision should've gotten someone the line from "the apprentice" - "You're fired!"

Hassle from the government??? Something sounds very fishy about that....

 

[Sam at TAP]

As I stated earlier and let me say it again. I did not have anything to do with the payouts at nationals although I do know that their legal dept. advised them to pay with vouchers. I can't go into this much because I really am not an attorney. I thought that everyone was paid from our nationals. If someone slipped thru the cracks, I posted the phone and person to get in touch with so quit beating a dead horse Flick. There is nothing there. TAP is legit. And I also said that for all future TAP events, players will be paid by checks. And they won't bounce either. Plus I also said and this I do know that everyone at Valley Forge was paid by checks. So what's your point?
Lastly, I also stated I am not getting in a pissing match with anyone on here so please don't start. I have neither the time or patience for it.

 

[FLICKit]

As I stated earlier and let me say it again. I did not have anything to do with the payouts at nationals although I do know that their legal dept. advised them to pay with vouchers. I can't go into this much because I really am not an attorney. I thought that everyone was paid from our nationals. If someone slipped thru the cracks, I posted the phone and person to get in touch with so quit beating a dead horse Flick. There is nothing there. TAP is legit. And I also said that for all future TAP events, players will be paid by checks. And they won't bounce either. Plus I also said and this I do know that everyone at Valley Forge was paid by checks. So what's your point?
Lastly, I also stated I am not getting in a pissing match with anyone on here so please don't start. I have neither the time or patience for it.

Hey! Some straightforward and honest answers. Can at least respect that.

That's really what people want, not all the hogwash sugar coating and cover-ups, which just pisses people off.

Yeah, you don't want to make it into a pissing match... I've held back and refrained from many things so as to reduce that.

Sometimes it's better to talk about the issues at hand, and address them honestly, rather than to make it into a pissing match, or coverup, or try to point the finger elsewhere (as is typical politics).

 

[Sam at TAP]

TAP and myself have never been or never will be about politics. We are pool players like everyone else on this board. At least I used to be.

 

[FLICKit]

TAP and myself have never been or never will be about politics. We are pool players like everyone else on this board. At least I used to be.

First of all, let me be clear. I was talking politics like (Dems and Repubs, Bush and Kerry, Majority and Minority...). They constantly try to avoid issues by deflecting to the opposition. Political deflecting is a pet peeve and I say contributes alot to corruptness in our political system. But, until the people learn to call em on it, then it'll continue in politics. End aside.

Now, as an integrity check - listening with that same critical ear.
Your first message on this board was totally about politics. I know your history. You and the top execs at TAP all used to be a part of the APA system. You separated off and try to create your own league, which you modeled after the APA system (Handicap 2-7, weekly scoring, same weekly dues, length of season, 5-8 players per team, handicap race grid, local and national tournament, and many more...) with a few minor differences. Yet you bash APA whenever you get a chance (your first message on this board was exactly that). It doesn't bother me, because I'm just a player, pursuing the best opportunities that I see to have fun and get better. Yet now you claim that you have nothing to do with the politics. Obviously, you have a personal and business agenda in that. And, I'm sure you'll continue. So what? You don't have to hide from it.

I've played in APA, TAP, and others. I can see the strengths and weaknesses of any system. I've made many positive contributions to each of them. As a matter of fact, the TAP MVP system that is used in our area, and maybe nationally is a direct result of my idea or suggestion. Looks like it works well. That's what I'm about. Whichever organization I'm apart of, I will express my opinions and try to make positive changes. In doing so, you also have to learn that not all your ideas will be implemented. Just have to learn with experience what you can and can not do.

I just don't like hogwash. I'll call a spade a spade. When I see you do it to players, I'll call you on it. Just like right now. Just like when you've done it on your message boards.

You can try to deflect and point the finger at me, or APA, or anywhere else you want. I've learned to expect it. Speaking frankly with honesty is not always met with positive responses. Such is life.

 

[Sam at TAP]

This is exactly what I want to avoid. First off, you mentioned politics and I knew exactly what you meant.
Second, I didn't break off and model TAP from the APA. In fact, TAP was formed in 1989. I joined on in 1997. We don't have the same handicapping system as APA and although both leagues are similar, they also are completely different. It's the same as two cars with the same shell but different engines. And from what I gather, I don't believe you had anything to do with the TAP MVP system but if you want to believe that than go ahead. If I am wrong, than you have my apologies.
As for bashing the APA I did no such thing. The only questionable remark I made and I quote "As for the TAP 25 points and APA 23 points, in my opinion, the APA keeps their team handicap limit at 23 for one simple reason. So teams breakup quicker and spawn new teams. End result, more $ in the St. Louis coffers. Again, my opinion here." Do you think I am wrong on this? Anything I stated about the APA on prior posts was my opinion. I think I am entitled to that.

 

[frankncali]

Sam,
I have never played TAP(i play APA) and wish it well. In the TAP
score keeping is there a record of the number of ball in hands a player gets?

Also while I wish TAP and any other league well I do recognize that a smaller organization will always grow fast. One advantage that TAP has is that
the APA broke the ground for league pool in bars long before TAP. Nothing wrong with TAP but to think that its solely the system that is producing a fast growth rate is not 100% accurate.

As for the 23-25 rule I think the APA has the 23 number set about right for 8 ball but it should be 25 for nine ball. From what I have noticed in 8ball the
better player usually wins. So with the 23 handicap it does force teams to break up but that can level out the leagues and local divisions.

League pool is good and has gotten alot of players out playing pool. I think its been better for the bar scene than it has been for pool.
The APA as well as all league system have their problems with sandbagging but I honestly dont think it happens as much as people think. Just missing a ball on purpose is not sandbagging yet I have heard people scream "sandbagger" when a player misses a ball.
IMO the word sandbagging is just a common word used by league players and most could not tell a sandbagger or tell you what sandbagging is.
I do feel the APA 9ball format helps keep sandbagging down by making all balls
count. If a player lays down then he directly costs his team points. IN 8 ball
a player can lay down but still win for his or her team.