frankncali said:
If a player misses that ball on purpose and does not call it as a defensive shot, then that person is sandbagging plain and simple.
Tell me about TAP...
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If a player misses that ball on purpose and does not call it as a defensive shot, then that person is sandbagging plain and simple.
Rackin_Zack said:
Agreed to a certain extent.
At times it might be to his advantage to miss. Thats where the defensive
shot comes into play. IMO true sandbagging is being at least two skill levels
higher than you are and deliberately playing bad.
An APA example
I dont feel that a SL3 can sandbag effectively. I think they can miss a ball every now and then on purpose and then thin they are sandbagging. However they dont have the next gear to shift into.
Theres some skill involved in sandbagging. Most or many players in the APA
just think they are sandbagging when in all reality they are doing what they
should be doing to get more wins. Most just try and run out and dont use their head. In instances where they miss a ball and think they are sandbaggin they are actaully increasing the chances of them winning by not making it so easy on the opponnet.
I have seen sandbaggers and bad league operators. IMO they go pretty much
hand in hand.
I just dont get why people would pay the dues and fees in sandbag with such
a limited shot of going to Vegas. Not worth it and its dishonest
frankncali said:
Since the APA rules define a defensive shot as ANY shot where you've no intention of making a ball, then if somebody intentionally misses a shot and doesn't call it defensive he is sandbagging. He may be a piss-poor sandbagger, but it is still sandbagging.
I do know what you mean though, if somebody is a true sandbagger (good at it that is) you won't even know it. You might suspect it because he'll always win when the chips are down, but there will be no real evidence of sandbagging. True sandbaggers are very rare and would probably rather be out making money with their "talent".
One thing I find odd are people who claim to be sandbagging (to their teammates) whenever they don't play well.
FLICKit said:
Let me ask you Flick. When did you join TAP and who was your league op? Your player ID # would also help. I know who and when he started the MVP program that TAP uses now on all of their handicap pages. Just wanted to know if your dates and mine match.
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Chuck Saunders (no longer with TAP due to health problems) wrote the program for it with input from Robert. Robert (I believe) may have had more input than Chuck. But Chuck wrote it into the software. If you helped Robert out on it than you deserve some credit.
I Agree...
Frank,
I think you make good points...I play APA, and while I don't think it's perfect, what League system is?...the objective of leagues of what ever sport, is to create an environment for the 'casual' player to have competition while improving their ability...to that end I think any system is ok...as for sandbagging, I agree, you have to be a 'better' skilled player to work it to your/your teams advantage...a lot of this goes to scoring...players on all Teams should learn to score properly...if these 'planned' misses were correctly marked as 'defense', than players handicaps would be more true to their ability...consistent and realistic skill level ratings are directly tied to proper scoring, no matter the League System...as for 23 vs 25 for 8-ball...I to from time to time want a 25 Team handicap, as I don't think a Team of SL5's could necessarily run a division...but I see the need to keep the League experience true to it's purpose, and make Teams 'have to' be diverse in Skill Level...I really don't think it is simply to keep creating Teams, (to Sam's opinion), remember the objective is to make League play 'fun' for all levels of Players, no matter their skill...
my 2c-
frankncali said:
Frank,
I think you make good points...I play APA, and while I don't think it's perfect, what League system is?...the objective of leagues of what ever sport, is to create an environment for the 'casual' player to have competition while improving their ability...to that end I think any system is ok...as for sandbagging, I agree, you have to be a 'better' skilled player to work it to your/your teams advantage...a lot of this goes to scoring...players on all Teams should learn to score properly...if these 'planned' misses were correctly marked as 'defense', than players handicaps would be more true to their ability...consistent and realistic skill level ratings are directly tied to proper scoring, no matter the League System...as for 23 vs 25 for 8-ball...I to from time to time want a 25 Team handicap, as I don't think a Team of SL5's could necessarily run a division...but I see the need to keep the League experience true to it's purpose, and make Teams 'have to' be diverse in Skill Level...I really don't think it is simply to keep creating Teams, (to Sam's opinion), remember the objective is to make League play 'fun' for all levels of Players, no matter their skill...
my 2c-
Wow! These guys really tried to barge onto the scene, and instead just petered out very quickly.
But the handicapping system is the biggest problem with TAP. In bowling and golf, the handicapping system helps to give players a chance to compete, by taking the difference in skills/abilities (i.e. 100 pins in bowling) and giving a boost to the lower player but only to a point (i.e. 90% - would equal 90 pins). This would mean that the stronger player would have the better odds of winning, but the lower player would have a reasonable chance. As opposed to if the lower player were playing straight up, then they'd have no chance. In numerous cases the TAP handicapping system is so outta whack, that it screws up the competitiveness. In numerous cases, lower player will not have competitiveness, but instead will have the clear advantage. In other words, 2 players with the skills and abilities to play straight up, will instead play 4 to 2 race. In a good handicapping system, the lower rated player is supposed to have a reasonable chance to win, but in this case with the TAP handicapping system, that lower player would be given an unreasonable advantage. This flaw occurs in the TAP system at a significantly higher rate than what is normal in any other system. This helps neither player. The higher rated player isn't gonna win, no matter what... unless it falls into that super rare fluke category whereby 2 equal players play and one had a dominating streak. With the TAP system, that lower rated player can half-ass play, and still be virtually assured of winning. Far too frequently, I'd have been willing to bet extraordinarily high amounts that certain players would win, no matter what their skill level or their opponent, and would've won about 90% of those bets. There are other flaws as well with the TAP system, but this happens in TAP at a significantly higher rate than what is normally acceptable.
First of all, that was exactly the point. The TAP system is similar because it is modeled after the APA system (2-7 handicapping, handicap race grid, number of weeks of play, playoffs, city level tournament, and nationals, teams of 5-8....Sam at TAP said:
But the handicapping system is the biggest problem with TAP. In bowling and golf, the handicapping system helps to give players a chance to compete, by taking the difference in skills/abilities (i.e. 100 pins in bowling) and giving a boost to the lower player but only to a point (i.e. 90% - would equal 90 pins). This would mean that the stronger player would have the better odds of winning, but the lower player would have a reasonable chance. As opposed to if the lower player were playing straight up, then they'd have no chance. In numerous cases the TAP handicapping system is so outta whack, that it screws up the competitiveness. In numerous cases, lower player will not have competitiveness, but instead will have the clear advantage. In other words, 2 players with the skills and abilities to play straight up, will instead play 4 to 2 race. In a good handicapping system, the lower rated player is supposed to have a reasonable chance to win, but in this case with the TAP handicapping system, that lower player would be given an unreasonable advantage. This flaw occurs in the TAP system at a significantly higher rate than what is normal in any other system. This helps neither player. The higher rated player isn't gonna win, no matter what... unless it falls into that super rare fluke category whereby 2 equal players play and one had a dominating streak. With the TAP system, that lower rated player can half-ass play, and still be virtually assured of winning. Far too frequently, I'd have been willing to bet extraordinarily high amounts that certain players would win, no matter what their skill level or their opponent, and would've won about 90% of those bets. There are other flaws as well with the TAP system, but this happens in TAP at a significantly higher rate than what is normally acceptable.
After the conversations in previous posts, you may have put a little egg on your own face. Sometimes it's better to get the facts first, before spewing off the cuff. Does this mean I get a formal apology, or one of those other kind?Sam at TAP said:
FLICKit said:Wow! These guys really tried to barge onto the scene, and instead just petered out very quickly.
First of all, that was exactly the point. The TAP system is similar because it is modeled after the APA system (2-7 handicapping, handicap race grid, number of weeks of play, playoffs, city level tournament, and nationals, teams of 5-8....
But the handicapping system is the biggest problem with TAP. In bowling and golf, the handicapping system helps to give players a chance to compete, by taking the difference in skills/abilities (i.e. 100 pins in bowling) and giving a boost to the lower player but only to a point (i.e. 90% - would equal 90 pins). This would mean that the stronger player would have the better odds of winning, but the lower player would have a reasonable chance. As opposed to if the lower player were playing straight up, then they'd have no chance. In numerous cases the TAP handicapping system is so outta whack, that it screws up the competitiveness. In numerous cases, lower player will not have competitiveness, but instead will have the clear advantage. In other words, 2 players with the skills and abilities to play straight up, will instead play 4 to 2 race. In a good handicapping system, the lower rated player is supposed to have a reasonable chance to win, but in this case with the TAP handicapping system, that lower player would be given an unreasonable advantage. This flaw occurs in the TAP system at a significantly higher rate than what is normal in any other system. This helps neither player. The higher rated player isn't gonna win, no matter what... unless it falls into that super rare fluke category whereby 2 equal players play and one had a dominating streak. With the TAP system, that lower rated player can half-ass play, and still be virtually assured of winning. Far too frequently, I'd have been willing to bet extraordinarily high amounts that certain players would win, no matter what their skill level or their opponent, and would've won about 90% of those bets. There are other flaws as well with the TAP system, but this happens in TAP at a significantly higher rate than what is normally acceptable.
After the conversations in previous posts, you may have put a little egg on your own face. Sometimes it's better to get the facts first, before spewing off the cuff. Does this mean I get a formal apology, or one of those other kind?
Damn, dude. How'd you get so angry? Do you work for another league or what? Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The solution is really very simple. If you like the way the league is set up, play in it. If you don't, don't. Truly am sorry about your bad experience. We aren't out to upset anyone.
Interesting assumptions... Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions. Just relaying what I've seen from bad experiences with the TAP league. Many others have verified the same thing from their own conclusions without any influence. Even PoolHallJunkie relayed his own bad experience. As was said earlier, people on this board just say it like it is, and let everyone else draw their own conclusions from the facts. As was stated by PoolHallJunkie people don't like to be given a bag of goods with empty promises and false expectations.linkui said:
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TAP must be doing something right since they are averaging over 1,000 new members a month nationally since they started keeping track last May.
In my own area I have seen my league grow by 30% last year and I am expecting 20-30% growth again this fall. FYI, the APA here got downsized by three counties last month. Like you said, just telling it like it is.
In my own area I have seen my league grow by 30% last year and I am expecting 20-30% growth again this fall. FYI, the APA here got downsized by three counties last month. Like you said, just telling it like it is.
I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, so I'm sorry if I repeat something.
I played one session with TAP and I liked the format. The score keeping was a little tedious, but I could deal with it.
However, IMHO, there is something seriously wrong with the TAP handicapping system. It seems to be extremely easy to manipulate your skill levels. I saw APA sl-7's playing in TAP as sl-4's. There was one player in my league that won 13 straight matches and was able to stay at an sl-4 level. Of course, he is an APA 7.
TAP has a good format, but I would have to see improvements in the handicap system before I would play in that league again.
TAP is sandbagger heaven. JMHO.
I played one session with TAP and I liked the format. The score keeping was a little tedious, but I could deal with it.
However, IMHO, there is something seriously wrong with the TAP handicapping system. It seems to be extremely easy to manipulate your skill levels. I saw APA sl-7's playing in TAP as sl-4's. There was one player in my league that won 13 straight matches and was able to stay at an sl-4 level. Of course, he is an APA 7.
TAP has a good format, but I would have to see improvements in the handicap system before I would play in that league again.
TAP is sandbagger heaven. JMHO.
In any league with handicaps you will have sandbagging. Is TAP sanbagging heaven? I disagree. In Valley Forge less than 1% of the players were dqed. I believe the number was 8 players out of about 1,000.
TAP has a different handicapping system and from what I have seen alot of players are one handicap below an APA cap. One you are saying is a player is 3 caps under. That is a blatant bagger and he would never get thru a TAP national event without getting tossed.
TAP has a different handicapping system and from what I have seen alot of players are one handicap below an APA cap. One you are saying is a player is 3 caps under. That is a blatant bagger and he would never get thru a TAP national event without getting tossed.
Sam at TAP said:
What about people from weak areas? Are they adjusted down at nationals? I was a 7 in APA and when I started TAP I moved over as a 7, but I think that nationally I would be a 6 at best. Are players like me just not going to be able to compete nationally?
Sam at TAP said:
You can't correct the problem if you continue to ignore the issue. Rich stated that people in the TAP handicapping system are severely mis-rated. Instead of understanding that he was talking about the TAP formula used to derive the rating, you quickly tried to spin it into sandbagging. Rich relayed no such information saying that the player was sandbagging. Yet you assumed it. If you need more information, try asking him if he believes the player was sandbagging in any way. But you may not like the answer that you get back. So, instead of asking, you want to assume, so that you can maintain the facade.
I've seen many players badly misrated with the TAP handicapping formula. They aren't sandbagging, they're playing well and strong, yet they take way too long to adjust accordingly. Or they're playing bad and weak, and they too take way too long to adjust. I've seen people dominate at their skill level season after season after season, yet they never go up. And people suffer at their skill level for multiple seasons, but never go down.
Sometimes it's wiser for that players skill level to go up, and test to see if they can maintain their dominance at that level. If not, then you know that the player is borderline. But, if the player maintains that competitiveness, then they were underrated.
It also raises another issue. Suppose you can define someone's rating to 100th of a point. If you have a choice between a 4.95 and 5.05, under most handicapping systems, it shouldn't matter much, both will have comparable contributions to their team. Under the TAP handicapping system, you want the 4.95 because he'll dominate at his skill level for all season long, plus more. While the 5.05 will struggle to win 50%. In addition, you'll be able to have someone on your team who is a whole skill level higher because with the 5 you have 20 points remaining. With the 4 you have 21 points remaining. So, not only is the 4.95 a significant advantage, but the additional skill level point, will be an added advantage.
You will try to spin it away. You will try to point the finger elsewhere. You will try to ignore the points that have been made. So be it. We've heard it all before.
I never tried to "spin" anything here. You say it takes way to long for a player to be adjusted in TAP. Would you like them to be moved every week on a good or bad match? In that case a player could lose one or two weeks in a row and they would know they would be lowered. TAP takes a complete and overall average of the players scores. There are over 80 computations doen on that score each week. As for some of the other posts about being from weaker areas, the person said they feel that they should be lowered from a 7 to a 6. I can't say if he should or not be adjusted. I don't have that data in front of me. I wish I had a $1 for everytime I heard that though. In my area alone, I have some of the strongest players on the high end skill level in TAP. And I see them get beat at our Titleholders and at Valley Forge every year. I am talking about the 1992 BCA nationals champ and another player that took 4th in the BCA's in 2001. Jam up players that should be 9 or 10's if the handicap system went that high. And they get beat so should they be lowered because of one or two losses? No because they have a good record overall. TAP handicaps don't bounce around as much as you like because it is in place to protect against hot and cold matches.
Now Flick......where did I spin anything. I gave you my honest answer but I am sure you will find something there that you don't like.
P.S....Look at the TAP site at www.tapleague.com on the home page stating the new member count for just May. I believe it was close to 700 the last time I looked and that is in less than two weeks. TAP has been averaging that number steady for over a year now. And look at the new areas on that same page that are coming into TAP. You can't ignore the facts. Players are tired of the other leagues out there because of the way they are setup and ran. IMO, TAP is a better league. You can play TAP or not. I really don't care. But if you played in Robert's area and you didn't like it than you must have a problem because I know Robert runs one of the best TAP leagues in the country. But the main thing is to just play pool and have a good time. That's what it is all about. To try to improve, hang out with your friends and competition. That's what TAP is.
Now Flick......where did I spin anything. I gave you my honest answer but I am sure you will find something there that you don't like.
P.S....Look at the TAP site at www.tapleague.com on the home page stating the new member count for just May. I believe it was close to 700 the last time I looked and that is in less than two weeks. TAP has been averaging that number steady for over a year now. And look at the new areas on that same page that are coming into TAP. You can't ignore the facts. Players are tired of the other leagues out there because of the way they are setup and ran. IMO, TAP is a better league. You can play TAP or not. I really don't care. But if you played in Robert's area and you didn't like it than you must have a problem because I know Robert runs one of the best TAP leagues in the country. But the main thing is to just play pool and have a good time. That's what it is all about. To try to improve, hang out with your friends and competition. That's what TAP is.
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Looks like you spin so much, that you don't even recognize it any more. "Moved every week" - look through all the posts in this thread, and find where anyone said anything about wanting to be moved every week.Sam at TAP said:
Doesn't matter how many calculations are being done, if it's done badly and in many cases (not all) on bad data. Some people make an automatic assumption that more calculations means better, which is what you're implying. But, if you look beyond the assumptions, and get to the facts, you'll see that the TAP handicapping system is a failure.Sam at TAP said:
And now you are conducting an argument, against "moved every week". I'm curious to know the answer to this, who do you believe wanted a system where you'd be "moved every week"? Wasn't me... so don't even try that...
The point that was being made was that it takes way too long to legitimately be moved up or down with the TAP handicapping system.
Look at your own stats, you have players in the 4-5 skill level range. These are supposed to be your average players. Thus, with or without a handicapping system, they should basically have an average win %. Yet, with the TAP system many of them have match win % that is above 70%. That is pretty high... but wait. There are even 4-5 skill level players with 80% win percentage. That's way high... but wait. Under the TAP handicapping system you even have 4-5 skill level players (supposedly average) who are at 90% win percentage. That's extremely high. Yet they've never moved up from the 4-5 skill level.
You can find many examples on the other end of the spectrum as well. Players with low win % at every level (1 of 9, or 2 of 9). Yet they never get moved down.
Of course to adjust these players even once throughout the course of the season, would be like "moving them every week" according to you.
Like I said, I could go in and place bets for those high percentage players, and against those low percentage players, and I'd make a killing. But the purpose of a handicapping system is not to make a killing on how accurately you can predict the results. The purpose is to have a fair and balanced system where all levels of players can compete legitimately.
That's actually exactly the point I've been making. If you have players who are some of the strongest players (i.e. 9 or 10's), then with a good handicapping system (like in bowling or golf) those players should win most every time. But, if the TAP system is outta whack, where it gives too much of an advantage to some players who aren't as good, then lower rated players should be able to beat them every year. You just confirmed the point, I've been making.Sam at TAP said:
"One or two losses", there ya go again... Now that's alotta spin... You're spending virtually your whole post arguing against being "lowered because of one or two losses".Sam at TAP said:
"TAP handicaps don't bounce around as much as you like because it is in place to protect against hot and cold matches." "Protect", now that's a laugh. What you want to call "protect", can also be construed as "hurting", for reasons that I've already laid out. You have bad players who are taking way to long to be adjusted correctly. And you have good players who are taking way too long to go up. Hence that's why your so called "strong 9's and 10's" are so able to get beat. Take a 4 in the TAP league, which is one of the skill levels that takes the longest to move up and down. When that player's game progresses to a 6 level player (or in many cases, the 6 or higher level player (TAP level if adjusted correctly) enters TAP as a 4, but the system never moves him). Now, when that 4 plays against your high 7 (which is a 2 to 5 race). That 7 has to win 5 games, and is allowed to only lose 1 at most, against players strong enough to run out a table at any point, or break and run at any time. Now add in the fact that it's on bar tables... And if you look honestly, you'll start to see why your 9 and 10 level players are so beatable.
You've proven my point... You spin so much, you don't even recognize it any more...Sam at TAP said:
Love it or hate it, & evidentally you hate it Flick, TAP is here & growing! You can complain all you want about the TAP h/c system, but the fact is that no league operator has anything to do with adjusting the H/C's. It's not like other leagues when a pet captain calls the league operator & complains that his best 7 lost 2 weeks in a row & the L/O moves him down to a 6. THERE IS NO FAVORITISM!
Sarge
Sarge