I just want to hear what kind of ideas people have before I explain how to do it, without changing the sub-rail of the manufacture first.
Glen
Maybe I'll learn something here...LOL.
Glen
Maybe I'll learn something here...LOL.
Test question: How would you convert Dia/GC rails to take K66 Artimus rail rubber?
- Thread starter realkingcobra
- Start date
I'm confused. Is this a trick question?
Why would you want to? Just use Artemis "Intercontinental" No. 66 which is, if I'm not mistaken actually a K-55 profile, which is what the table was intended to have?
I have found that retrofitting tables is more trouble than it's worth.
Why would you want to? Just use Artemis "Intercontinental" No. 66 which is, if I'm not mistaken actually a K-55 profile, which is what the table was intended to have?
I have found that retrofitting tables is more trouble than it's worth.
naaa...not really. Rail rubber is more of an opinion than that of fact.Gabriel signature pro 9ft's use Artimus K66, not K55, and they play as well as a Diamond or a GC, I just don't happen to like their tables BELOW the rails...LOL. I'm a die hard K66 fan myself, so I'm not real sold on the price of the Artimus Intercontinental yet.Eddie4269 said:
Glen
I have never needed to do this but i have read and been told you need to recut the rails or replace the sub rail. If you chose to recut the rail you then make the table's playing are bigger there fore all your banks are off including the diamonds by a 1\8-1\4" and it snowballs from there.
I dont get request's for it so i have the knowledge for it but not the experince, most people think rubber is rubber after all its just a big eraser isnt it.
This should be a good topic looking foreword to some other ideas.
Craig
I dont get request's for it so i have the knowledge for it but not the experince, most people think rubber is rubber after all its just a big eraser isnt it.
This should be a good topic looking foreword to some other ideas.
Craig
The reason I brought up this topic, is because of having to follow behind a very renowned billiards technician, to try and fix his so called Artimus rail replacement jobs. Instead of replacing the Diamond and Brunswick K55 rail rubber with Artimus Intercontinental model 66 (K55) rail rubber, he choose to use the Artimus K66 pool rubber. In the first case, he mounted the rail rubber flush to the top of the sub-rail, and tightened the pockets...all done. Well, the table played like shit, so I got called in to fix the problem. When I got to the table, the first thing I noticed, was that the point of the cushion was at 1 9/16" high and the playing surface was 50 1/4" x 100 1/4". Needless to say, the banks were dead as hell, so I replaced the rubber with K55, re-leveled the slates, recovered the table, and was back on my way...job done. Diamond table fixed.
The second time I ran into this persons work, he changed is style of installing the same rail rubber. This time, he belt sanded off the top of the sub-rail at a downward angle, lowering the rail alignment point by 1/8" of an inch, then mounted the rubber using the bottom edge of the face bevel to line up the rail rubber. This time the point of the cushion was at the required 1 7/16" but still played like crap. The reason it played bad was because the point of the cushion was pinching the banked balls because as the balls were banked into the rail, the point of the cushion was actually lifting upward instead of compressing into the main body of the rubber. This time, in order to fix the rails, I'd have to dato the top of the sub-rail off and replace the belt sanded wood with an inlaid piece of poplar and re-mold the wood back to original in order to install the K55 rail rubber. The owner of the table choose to replace the rails instead...$1,500.00 later when the rails arrived, I recovered the rails, recovered the table, and everything was fine. Diamond table fixed.
The third time I ran into this persons work, was on a Gold Crown 1. He did the same thing as he did to the second table I ran into, only this time, there was nothing I could do...you don't just order up a new set of GC 1 set of rails and replace the screw up, and my wood shop was 2,000 miles away...so I moved the table from where it was, to where the owner wanted it, set it up again..in which it was never set up right in the first place...the slates were never centered when they were mounted in the first place...back in the 60's, so I had to drill out all the slate screw holes, fill them with 1/4" wood dowels, and remount the slates from the beginning, the leveled them, recovered the rails/slate and finished the job...all for the payment of my cue that I sold to the owner 6 years ago!...LOL The interest I paid on my cue...was the work on the second table I described above as well...LMAO.
Glen
So, the morel of this story is, that if a person is going to install K66 rail rubber on rails designed for K55 rubber...I want to know how anyone else would prep the rails for the conversion.
When enough technicians admit defeat, or come up with some of the most off the wall ways of doing this job, I'll explain how to do it right...and very easy...LOL
PS. And belt sanding off the slate is not the right way of raising the point of the cushion in order to raise the height of the rails....LMAO...that was what someone did on the last GC3 that I worked on...you wouldn't believe who did THAT job!...LOL
The second time I ran into this persons work, he changed is style of installing the same rail rubber. This time, he belt sanded off the top of the sub-rail at a downward angle, lowering the rail alignment point by 1/8" of an inch, then mounted the rubber using the bottom edge of the face bevel to line up the rail rubber. This time the point of the cushion was at the required 1 7/16" but still played like crap. The reason it played bad was because the point of the cushion was pinching the banked balls because as the balls were banked into the rail, the point of the cushion was actually lifting upward instead of compressing into the main body of the rubber. This time, in order to fix the rails, I'd have to dato the top of the sub-rail off and replace the belt sanded wood with an inlaid piece of poplar and re-mold the wood back to original in order to install the K55 rail rubber. The owner of the table choose to replace the rails instead...$1,500.00 later when the rails arrived, I recovered the rails, recovered the table, and everything was fine. Diamond table fixed.
The third time I ran into this persons work, was on a Gold Crown 1. He did the same thing as he did to the second table I ran into, only this time, there was nothing I could do...you don't just order up a new set of GC 1 set of rails and replace the screw up, and my wood shop was 2,000 miles away...so I moved the table from where it was, to where the owner wanted it, set it up again..in which it was never set up right in the first place...the slates were never centered when they were mounted in the first place...back in the 60's, so I had to drill out all the slate screw holes, fill them with 1/4" wood dowels, and remount the slates from the beginning, the leveled them, recovered the rails/slate and finished the job...all for the payment of my cue that I sold to the owner 6 years ago!...LOL The interest I paid on my cue...was the work on the second table I described above as well...LMAO.
Glen
So, the morel of this story is, that if a person is going to install K66 rail rubber on rails designed for K55 rubber...I want to know how anyone else would prep the rails for the conversion.
When enough technicians admit defeat, or come up with some of the most off the wall ways of doing this job, I'll explain how to do it right...and very easy...LOL
PS. And belt sanding off the slate is not the right way of raising the point of the cushion in order to raise the height of the rails....LMAO...that was what someone did on the last GC3 that I worked on...you wouldn't believe who did THAT job!...LOL
mecanik "glen, get over it and go **** yourself you washedup old installer and hurry up with that dvd and shutup about it"
And "mecanik" you can personally respond to this test question with all your wisdom and knowlege...IF you can!...LOL I would love to hear what you have to say about this subject!
Glen
And "mecanik" you can personally respond to this test question with all your wisdom and knowlege...IF you can!...LOL I would love to hear what you have to say about this subject!
Glen
good morning
As with you i started as a mech-tech in the mid 80's, now i sell so many new tables in ft myers and naples that it consumes my time, and if trucking around the USA serves you than keep on trucking. I read your post and i'm not impressed with you telling posters what and how to do it and I will stick with face to face conversations. Your loaded self serving questions are tired, so don't try to call me out. P.S. we can can do this till oct.-nov. if you'd like to.
As with you i started as a mech-tech in the mid 80's, now i sell so many new tables in ft myers and naples that it consumes my time, and if trucking around the USA serves you than keep on trucking. I read your post and i'm not impressed with you telling posters what and how to do it and I will stick with face to face conversations. Your loaded self serving questions are tired, so don't try to call me out. P.S. we can can do this till oct.-nov. if you'd like to.
Hmmm...In my book, you're done. This is just the kind of answer I expected from you, you're a salesman of pool tables...NOT a real billiards technician...figures!...LOLmecanik said:
Glen
Don't bother responding, you're all washed up with me. Leave being a billiards technician to the real technicians.
Talk To A Mechanic
I'm certainly no mechanic but get stuck doing some table work from time to time, due to the lack of mechanics in my area, and Glen and some others have been very helpful on answering questions and even taking pictures when it helps. I don't know you and you may be a great mechanic but you aren't really answering any mechanic related questions or helping anyone. You are simply taking pot shots and taking threads off topic. Glen or any of the others certainly don't need me to stick up for them, I'm just trying to let you know you aren't helping this section any.
mecanik said:
I'm certainly no mechanic but get stuck doing some table work from time to time, due to the lack of mechanics in my area, and Glen and some others have been very helpful on answering questions and even taking pictures when it helps. I don't know you and you may be a great mechanic but you aren't really answering any mechanic related questions or helping anyone. You are simply taking pot shots and taking threads off topic. Glen or any of the others certainly don't need me to stick up for them, I'm just trying to let you know you aren't helping this section any.
You're not smart enough to get under my skin, or make me mad...LOL Is this the best you can do...posting my picture on your avitar?...Silly little boy...LMAOmecanik said:
Mecanik - So far you haven't posted a single constructive thought as far as I can see. You have simply taken pot shots at people who have. Also, where is your feedback from happy customers, haven't seen any posts where people are extolling your work. So please, quit wasting our valuable forum space with your drivel !!!
Jeeez.... you can't escape junk mail even here.
Jeeez.... you can't escape junk mail even here.
mecanik said:
So is that when medicare runs out, ankle braclet comes off, or you graduate from imperial pool table school. contribute some real info and you might gain a little respect every now and then.
Lets go back and keep this one of the better forums on the internet help it grow I do belong to 3-4 more and i like this one the best.
Best of luck
Craig
Don't take what I say here and use it to lump me in with "mecanik".
Glen,
I have to say that while I can tell that you've been around awhile and are very knowledgeable, I do think that many of your posts are self-serving and designed to do nothing but toot your own horn.
I've seen time and time again you denegrate the work of other mechanics. You seem to have the attitude that the ONLY way to do a job is the GLEN way to do the job.
This thread is a perfect example. You and I, and any table mechanic worth a crap knows that the correct answer for how to convert this table to accept K-66 rubber is a very simple one: DON'T. I would do everything in my power to get a customer off this idea.
What if you were an auto mechanic and a customer said to you, "I recently moved to the country and I would like to convert my Ford Escort to four wheel drive..."? Would you have this person spending 15 thousand dollars to do so? Or would you tell them to sell the Escort and buy a 4x4?
"When enough technicians admit defeat, or come up with some of the most off the wall ways of doing this job, I'll explain how to do it right...and very easy...LOL"
What is your fascination with placing yourself on a pedestal above any and all other techs? You're openly baiting people who are your peers in order to ridicule them. This seems pitiful to me.
Glen, you're a smart guy. You know alot and you have alot to teach some of the younger guys, but this isn't the way to do it.
Glen,
I have to say that while I can tell that you've been around awhile and are very knowledgeable, I do think that many of your posts are self-serving and designed to do nothing but toot your own horn.
I've seen time and time again you denegrate the work of other mechanics. You seem to have the attitude that the ONLY way to do a job is the GLEN way to do the job.
This thread is a perfect example. You and I, and any table mechanic worth a crap knows that the correct answer for how to convert this table to accept K-66 rubber is a very simple one: DON'T. I would do everything in my power to get a customer off this idea.
What if you were an auto mechanic and a customer said to you, "I recently moved to the country and I would like to convert my Ford Escort to four wheel drive..."? Would you have this person spending 15 thousand dollars to do so? Or would you tell them to sell the Escort and buy a 4x4?
"When enough technicians admit defeat, or come up with some of the most off the wall ways of doing this job, I'll explain how to do it right...and very easy...LOL"
What is your fascination with placing yourself on a pedestal above any and all other techs? You're openly baiting people who are your peers in order to ridicule them. This seems pitiful to me.
Glen, you're a smart guy. You know alot and you have alot to teach some of the younger guys, but this isn't the way to do it.
"younger guys"...what about the older ones too?...see my point?Eddie4269 said:
Eddie, I have no beef with you, but maybe you're right...as sometimes maybe I come on a little to strong, I can admit that...I guess, if I have to...LOL
I'm in Jeffersonville, Indiana right now at a Motel 6, going to get some sleep tonight before I take off to deliver 8 Diamond 9ft ProAm's to Minot, ND by this Friday, recover them Sat/Sun, then return to Diamond by this Monday...that's about 2,600 miles round trip. I'll explain how to convert rails milled for K55 to K66 before I go to sleep tonight, then you'll see how easy it really is. But you ARE right, I really didn't expect anyone to answer my question, but it's not the fault of ANY technician NOT to know the answer, it's not a matter of fault, it's matter of knowlege, and I'm willing to share it with everyone, as I hope more technicians become more willing to share their knowlege as well.
Eddie, if you look at all my posts...I've NEVER put down another technician for lack of knowlege, not one.
Glen
I'm in Jeffersonville, Indiana right now at a Motel 6, going to get some sleep tonight before I take off to deliver 8 Diamond 9ft ProAm's to Minot, ND by this Friday, recover them Sat/Sun, then return to Diamond by this Monday...that's about 2,600 miles round trip. I'll explain how to convert rails milled for K55 to K66 before I go to sleep tonight, then you'll see how easy it really is. But you ARE right, I really didn't expect anyone to answer my question, but it's not the fault of ANY technician NOT to know the answer, it's not a matter of fault, it's matter of knowlege, and I'm willing to share it with everyone, as I hope more technicians become more willing to share their knowlege as well.
Eddie, if you look at all my posts...I've NEVER put down another technician for lack of knowlege, not one.
Glen
Glen,
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with being proud of what you do. I'm certainly proud of what I do.
But I challenge you to look at your last couple of posts and examine some of what you said. First of all you said to me something to the effect that I don't know what you know. That's quite an assumption. The truth is, we both have a bit of knowledge when it comes to pool, billiard and snooker equipment. What you know and what I know probably overlap by about 90%. I'm sure theres a bit you've run into that I haven't, but I'm also sure that the inverse is also true.
I've worked with and followed behind hundreds of different techs. I look at the work they way I look at my pool game. There have been several mechanics that I would say I would consider not as skilled as I, but that doesn't mean that I can't learn anything from them. Likewise there are players that I can give the 6 ball to that might show me something new.
Anyway, no hard feelings, and since you travel, maybe we can get together and beat up some rails sometime soon. Let me know if you ever come through KC. Ever been to Dan Tull's place?
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with being proud of what you do. I'm certainly proud of what I do.
But I challenge you to look at your last couple of posts and examine some of what you said. First of all you said to me something to the effect that I don't know what you know. That's quite an assumption. The truth is, we both have a bit of knowledge when it comes to pool, billiard and snooker equipment. What you know and what I know probably overlap by about 90%. I'm sure theres a bit you've run into that I haven't, but I'm also sure that the inverse is also true.
I've worked with and followed behind hundreds of different techs. I look at the work they way I look at my pool game. There have been several mechanics that I would say I would consider not as skilled as I, but that doesn't mean that I can't learn anything from them. Likewise there are players that I can give the 6 ball to that might show me something new.
Anyway, no hard feelings, and since you travel, maybe we can get together and beat up some rails sometime soon. Let me know if you ever come through KC. Ever been to Dan Tull's place?
I was just in KC, at Shooters to pick up some Diamond dollys...last week. I'll be stopping by Shooters again somewhere around this coming Monday on my way back from ND.Eddie4269 said:
Glen
Okay, first of all, in order to explain how to convert K55 rails to K66 you first have to understand the differences between the two.
First of all, the profile of the K55 is 1 1/4" from front to back, as well as the base of the rail which mounts to the sub-rail bevel. Most K55 sub-rails are beveled at about 21 degrees which places the point of the cushion at about 1 7/16" of an inch above the playing surface for perfect ball rebound.
K66 profile rail rubber is 1 1/8" from front to back, as well as the base of the rail that mounts to the sub-rail. Most K66 sub-rails are beveled at about 18 degrees which places the point of the cushion at about 1 7/16" of an inch above the playing surface for perfect ball rebound.
Three things happen when you mount K66 rail rubber on a K55 sub-rail.
1) When the K66 rubber is mounted flush with the top of the sub-rail face bevel, the point of the cushion ends up being at about 1 9/16" inches high, which causes the balls to get pinched by the rail rubber when banked into it, which makes the banks play sort of dead.
2) Because the K66 rubber is an 1/8" inch shorter than the K55, it'll turn the playing surface of a 9ft into 50 1/4" x 100 1/4" instead of the normal 50 x 100 inch playing surface. Not only is the playing surface wider and longer now, but it's also no longer twice as long as it is wide.
3) Because the K66 is also shorter by 1/8th of an inch, it'll also create a 1/8" inch lip of sub-rail which no longer follows the profile of the rail rubber at the base of the sub-rail.
Other problems:
If you lower the K66 rail rubber when you mount it by an 1/8" of an inch, it'll be at the right playing height, but the main body of the raill rubber will no longer be behind the point of the cushion, which causes the nose of the rubber to lift more when a ball is banked into it, instead of compressing into itself which is what it needs to do in order to rebound the banked ball correctly. Then, lowering the rubber to mount it, leaves a 1/8" inch step at the top of the sub-rail where the rubber meets the sub-rail. Belt sanding this lip off to make it flush with the rubber is like putting a square peg in a round hole, it's just not right.
I'll post this section first, then in my next post, I'll explain how to make the conversion very easy, and why I like the option of using either type of rubber.
Glen
First of all, the profile of the K55 is 1 1/4" from front to back, as well as the base of the rail which mounts to the sub-rail bevel. Most K55 sub-rails are beveled at about 21 degrees which places the point of the cushion at about 1 7/16" of an inch above the playing surface for perfect ball rebound.
K66 profile rail rubber is 1 1/8" from front to back, as well as the base of the rail that mounts to the sub-rail. Most K66 sub-rails are beveled at about 18 degrees which places the point of the cushion at about 1 7/16" of an inch above the playing surface for perfect ball rebound.
Three things happen when you mount K66 rail rubber on a K55 sub-rail.
1) When the K66 rubber is mounted flush with the top of the sub-rail face bevel, the point of the cushion ends up being at about 1 9/16" inches high, which causes the balls to get pinched by the rail rubber when banked into it, which makes the banks play sort of dead.
2) Because the K66 rubber is an 1/8" inch shorter than the K55, it'll turn the playing surface of a 9ft into 50 1/4" x 100 1/4" instead of the normal 50 x 100 inch playing surface. Not only is the playing surface wider and longer now, but it's also no longer twice as long as it is wide.
3) Because the K66 is also shorter by 1/8th of an inch, it'll also create a 1/8" inch lip of sub-rail which no longer follows the profile of the rail rubber at the base of the sub-rail.
Other problems:
If you lower the K66 rail rubber when you mount it by an 1/8" of an inch, it'll be at the right playing height, but the main body of the raill rubber will no longer be behind the point of the cushion, which causes the nose of the rubber to lift more when a ball is banked into it, instead of compressing into itself which is what it needs to do in order to rebound the banked ball correctly. Then, lowering the rubber to mount it, leaves a 1/8" inch step at the top of the sub-rail where the rubber meets the sub-rail. Belt sanding this lip off to make it flush with the rubber is like putting a square peg in a round hole, it's just not right.
I'll post this section first, then in my next post, I'll explain how to make the conversion very easy, and why I like the option of using either type of rubber.
Glen
Rail conversion
So what the magic answer then ?
What you're describing sounds exactly like my table, which is a 50's brunswick which was re-rubbered with Artemis last year, I just wish i knew which artemis it was.
Is a Brunswick Anniversary supposed to be k55 or k66 or what ?
Either way it plays dead. I'll be taking some measurements tonight.
So what the magic answer then ?
What you're describing sounds exactly like my table, which is a 50's brunswick which was re-rubbered with Artemis last year, I just wish i knew which artemis it was.
Is a Brunswick Anniversary supposed to be k55 or k66 or what ?
Either way it plays dead. I'll be taking some measurements tonight.