i, when i first started playing pool purchased bert kinister tapes. of the multiple tapes, i found that the 60 minute work out for 8-9 ball was excellent for learning position play. i still do a refresher about one a month to keep things fresh in my mind. i also found the star system very good also because you have to move the cue from one end to the other just as you would in a nine ball game. practicing this system gave me the confidence and increased my game. the 60 minute work out moved me up 2 balls and the star system another 2balls easily. in apa terms a 4 to a 7 in approx 2 months. the other tapes i have purchased from bert were not as productive, but still had merit. hope this helps you out