The age old 1P debate - The shooter v/s The moover

Cannonball55

Cannonball55

This is cool
Silver Member
Hi,

throughout the years i've noticed that several arguements on topics in pool discussions often go unresolved . the "shooter verses mover" debate is a very interesting one that has always intrigued me . I fell in love with the game of one pocket since the first time i saw ronnie allen perform his mind boggling artistry back in the 80s . I have a good appreciation for the great history of the game ( and it's colorful players ) and recently i have been very pleased at the resurgence of 1P. 1P went through a period when it was'nt "cool" and "hip" ( during the 9ball heyday of the 80s ) But thanks to guys like Scott Frost, Efren Reyes, Cliff Joyner, Alex Pagulayan and others, they've made 1P cool and exciting again . 1P is no longer just your father's favorite pool game, amongst many pool players today, 1p is considered the best game to book & match up . A ton of pool players won't play anything other than one hole these days ( for the cash ) and it's ok . it's understood

so hence the debate .....

which type of player would have the advantage over the other ? ....

on an even, level playing field ( they both are jam up in overall skill and ability )

the shooter or the mover ? .....

the gunslinger or the grinder ? .....

If u are like me, a person that was absolutely wowed by the firepower of ronnie allen, u may echo the sentiment shared by many-a-player " a shooter always beats a mover ". yeah, we've all heard that before . But i want to make a case for the cold blooded, ice water veined movers in 1P . guys like incardona, steve cook, mathews, bugs and especially artie b. either of those guys could absolutely suffocate u and leave u with no air at all . they have beaten many a straight shootin gun slinger . So, i think it stands to reason that a case could be made either way .....

what do u think az, the shooter or the mover ? ....

The floor is open for debate .

edit : All pros, semi-pros & road players : your input is especially welcomed and encouraged.

Thanks
 
First let me say that I agree totally with what you say, in addition one pocket is in my opinion the only game of pool that requires advanced skill in execution, having said that offense or defense can be effective either way, a player with equal skill can be effective using either strategy, thats what makes it such a great game.

John
 
Cannonball55 said:
on an even, level playing field ( they both are jam up in overall skill and ability )

the shooter or the mover ? .....
[...]But i want to make a case for the cold blooded, ice water veined movers in 1P .
Click to expand...
One of the reasons 1H is fundamentally different from other games is the moving. Moving is about creating opportunity for yourself while preventing your opponent from doing something. This is easy to learn, but hard to master. But if you do, your opponent is always on the defensive. If so, you're going to win. So my vote is with the movers.

-td
 
great question. players with equal fire power, the mover will beat the other guy to the shot. but as your shooting power begins slip, you change to a more defensive shot selection. the shooter will give the mover a lot of trouble if the mover can't pocket some hard shots. some of the guys that were named as movers fire power has slipped a bit and probably turn down shots they used to shoot.
ps:ronnie was also an execelent mover when he was young and in charge.
 
during the john city jamboree young buddy hall matched up with Grady.grady being a very methodical player was getting uncomfortable with buddy`s style of play.Grady told Buddy that he needs to 'move' rather than try to pocket the balls.Buddy replied " why do I have to move when I can run out".

the above is an extract from buddy`s biography written by Woody.
In US open one pocket when it was held in kalamzoo, Mi Double J played the game like it was a 9 ball game.He played very aggressive offense.Tony Chohan also can get aggressive and play it like 9 ball.
 
I prefer the guy skilled enough to shoot an offensive shot while still being defensive...
Those are the best 1-hole players....
 
MnM said:
I prefer the guy skilled enough to shoot an offensive shot while still being defensive...
Those are the best 1-hole players....
Click to expand...

yeah the two way shot masters are definetly super tough . See Cliff J. for the best example of two way shot execution
 
I'm not a one pocket expert, but...

I don't see a lot of difference between good one pocket players in shooting ability. If they're good they can shoot. And I don't see a lot of difference in moving ability. If they're good they know the moves and can execute them.

The big difference that I see is in patience and discipline. The winning player is usually the one who has the patience to keep the lid on, forcing his opponent to try too hard rather than trying too hard himself. He has the shooting skill to take advantage of openings when they appear but the discipline to take only what's available without overreaching.

I think another sign of a winner is the ability to play smart: to weigh potential gain against potential loss, take smart, calculated risks when they come up and recognize and avoid risks that are too high for the potential gain.

I, by the way, have none of these skills, but at least I know what I envy.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I'm not a one pocket expert, but...

I don't see a lot of difference between good one pocket players in shooting ability. If they're good they can shoot. And I don't see a lot of difference in moving ability. If they're good they know the moves and can execute them.

The big difference that I see is in patience and discipline. The winning player is usually the one who has the patience to keep the lid on, forcing his opponent to try too hard rather than trying too hard himself. He has the shooting skill to take advantage of openings when they appear but the discipline to take only what's available without overreaching.

I think another sign of a winner is the ability to play smart: to weigh potential gain against potential loss, take smart, calculated risks when they come up and recognize and avoid risks that are too high for the potential gain.

I, by the way, have none of these skills, but at least I know what I envy.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Patrick,

Your insight is right on target. Given two player's with the advanced skills,at pool, (capable of running out if given an opening) The one with the most patience will usually prevail. I don't mean they will win by "squeezing", I'm saying the player with the most shot creativity and imagination, will usually overcome, even a slightly better shot maker.
Finding the right shot, in any given situation, is the key to winning at one pocket. We all know how to move the balls uptable when we are way ahead on the count, but theres a whole lot more to it than that.

Dick
 
Cannonball55 said:
You beat me to it nyjoe . but u must give credit to the author of that comment, louie roberts
Click to expand...
The first time I heard that was on Willie Jopling's video on 1H.

-td
 
Cannonball55 said:
Hi,

throughout the years i've noticed that several arguements on topics in pool discussions often go unresolved . the "shooter verses mover" debate is a very interesting one that has always intrigued me . I fell in love with the game of one pocket since the first time i saw ronnie allen perform his mind boggling artistry back in the 80s . I have a good appreciation for the great history of the game ( and it's colorful players ) and recently i have been very pleased at the resurgence of 1P. 1P went through a period when it was'nt "cool" and "hip" ( during the 9ball heyday of the 80s ) But thanks to guys like Scott Frost, Efren Reyes, Cliff Joyner, Alex Pagulayan and others, they've made 1P cool and exciting again . 1P is no longer just your father's favorite pool game, amongst many pool players today, 1p is considered the best game to book & match up . A ton of pool players won't play anything other than one hole these days ( for the cash ) and it's ok . it's understood

so hence the debate .....

which type of player would have the advantage over the other ? ....

on an even, level playing field ( they both are jam up in overall skill and ability )

the shooter or the mover ? .....

the gunslinger or the grinder ? .....

If u are like me, a person that was absolutely wowed by the firepower of ronnie allen, u may echo the sentiment shared by many-a-player " a shooter always beats a mover ". yeah, we've all heard that before . But i want to make a case for the cold blooded, ice water veined movers in 1P . guys like incardona, steve cook, mathews, bugs and especially artie b. either of those guys could absolutely suffocate u and leave u with no air at all . they have beaten many a straight shootin gun slinger . So, i think it stands to reason that a case could be made either way .....

what do u think az, the shooter or the mover ? ....

The floor is open for debate .

edit : All pros, semi-pros & road players : your input is especially welcomed and encouraged.

Thanks
Click to expand...


Cannonball..........What Patrick Johnson and SJDinPHX said is correct, and I've said it before both here and over at onepocket.org........Fuggedabout mover or shooter - one or the other, that argument has ALWAYS been off track - it's the guy who does BOTH of those things at top speed that is the best one pocket player.

And with all due respect, the hard-core squeezers were Hopkins, Fusco, Varner, and like you said, Artie.....the guys you named as squeezers: "incardona, steve cook, mathews, bugs", were not squeezers - they were the correct kind of players I'm talking about - complete players that incorporated BOTH styles, squeezing AND shooting, just like todays Efren, Cliff, Parica, Gabe Owen, etc. etc.
 
Another interesting thread. I pretty much agree with what's been said here, but not totally. The best players indeed must be able to shoot good and move good too. BUT you can shoot like God, and if you don't know the basic moves in One Pocket, a shortstop will beat you. Yes, you heard me right. You better know how to move, or I don't care how good you shoot. It won't save you!

I know this from personal experience. I have had several occasions in my life to play someone who could easily spot me the seven ball in 9-Ball (or more), but that same player had NO chance playing me One Pocket. And I mean zero!

I remember the first trip I made to England with Tang. He hooked up with arguably the best 9-Ball player over there at the time, who will remain nameless. They played $200 sets and Tang barely won both sets. Now they (the player and his partner) started talking to me about playing. I had been hitting balls on a nearby table. I told them there was no way I going to play them any 9-Ball, but we could play some One Pocket.

The one guy says sure, I know that game, you make all your balls in one pocket. I said that's right. So we made a game for $25, not a big bet, but gambling nonetheless. I saw very quickly that he didn't have a clue about One Pocket. He was actually rolling the cue ball up against the pack (and taking a scratch) to try to keep me from having an open shot. And this guy was a player! But he was not a One Pocket player, and I had to stall with him to get him to play four games. This same guy plays over here now in some big 9-Ball tourneys. He has never said anything to me again about our little One Pocket game, and neither have I.

Same thing happened my first trip to China. I ran into a pretty fair player over there playing in a Ring 9-Ball game. It ended up me and him were left and I didn't want to play the guy heads up. So I asked him if he played One Pocket and he wasn't sure what it was. So I explained the game to him ("It's very simple, you rack all the balls and try to make eight balls in your pocket"), and he asked to play a practice game. Sure why not. Naturally I lost that game, and then we played for 100 Chinese dollars (that's about $14-15 U.S.) a game.

We had been playing the Ring Game for 50 a man, the biggest game I had seen up till then in China. I told him 50 a game was too cheap for One Pocket because it takes a long time to play one game. He offered to play for 100. Trust me when I tell you there are people over there with big money. JBCases know this. When we left I walked out with the guy to his brand new Mercedes. Meanwhile I'm winning game after game and the guy refuses to quit. He is convinced he can beat me. And he couldn't have won a game if we played all night. And this is a guy who shot a little straighter than me.

I was with two girls and they were amazed that I was winning game after game. I was having one of them hold the money for me, and she was thrilled every time he handed her the 100 bill. Finally I let the guy win one game, and he promptly quit. He said he just wanted to win a game. He thought it was all good fun. He had stacks of 100 notes in his pocket. I ended up seven or eight games to the good. Plus another few hundred from the Ring Game. My big score in China. :)

This was in Guangzhou in a huge sports complex that had a poolroom with over 30 tables, and a waiting list. The neighborhood was like the Chinese Beverly Hills, with Rolls Royce and Ferrari dealerships and upscale restaurants, shopping and high rise condos.

When I was younger and playing a lot more, I frequently would run into some straight shooting kid that I couldn't beat. If I could get him to switch to One Pocket, that was usually all it would take for me to get even or get winners. Most of the time, with Keith and Cole being exceptions. :grin:
 
Last edited:
Cannonball55 said:
You beat me to it nyjoe . but u must give credit to the author of that comment, louie roberts
Click to expand...


Shot straighter than Robin Hood but was a mark playing 1P for some time.

His matches with EARL down in the PALACE were epic. IMO he could give him the 5 playing 9B, BUT, that sneaky old man wouldn't play 9B;)
 
I took on 1P about 2years ago when I moved back up north and the room I played in was full of real strong 1P players.....some shooters, some movers. I have a long history with 9ball and 14.1 so the shots were there, but I did have to learn the moves. After learning the basics I naturally became a shooter with little patience from my natural 9ball style, so I needed to learn to squeeze a little.....which was actually for me the thing that made my game much stronger.

Now the situation/score determines the shot, but I still come to the table looking to shoot, or move balls towards my hole....I just can't help it!:D
 
SJDinPHX said:
Patrick,

Your insight is right on target. Given two player's with the advanced skills,at pool, (capable of running out if given an opening) The one with the most patience will usually prevail. I don't mean they will win by "squeezing", I'm saying the player with the most shot creativity and imagination, will usually overcome, even a slightly better shot maker.
Finding the right shot, in any given situation, is the key to winning at one pocket. We all know how to move the balls uptable when we are way ahead on the count, but theres a whole lot more to it than that.

Dick
Click to expand...

There is so much more to it than that. When I was young, I was always getting ahead in the ball count but not protecting the lead. I would go for the big shot trying to put it away and there is no telling how much money this cost me over the years..

As in most games of pool, I agree with you, the right shot is so critical.
 
ribdoner said:
Shot straighter than Robin Hood but was a mark playing 1P for some time.

His matches with EARL down in the PALACE were epic. IMO he could give him the 5 playing 9B, BUT, that sneaky old man wouldn't play 9B;)
Click to expand...

was this earl heisler ( sp ) ?
 
Dick:
the player with the most shot creativity and imagination, will usually overcome
Click to expand...

I should have included this factor with my "patience and discipline" factors - that would make the solid 3-legged foundation for one pocket. Finding (and executing) creative solutions but having the patience and discipline to not get "too creative" - that sounds like the ticket to me.

pj
chgo
 
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