The Arizona Rating System

[Jaden]

It's not that the handicaps benefit the better player...

Well let's see. There was a big 8 and under tournament at Metros a couple weeks ago. The big winners were, wait for it, the 8's including one Eddie as i remember. All the cries about the handicap systems by the good players and players that don't play and still mostly the better players win. What's that mean? You might not like the handicap system but it still benefits the better player. So what's your argument exactly.

It's that in the grand scheme of things, the better you get, the less a spot means. When you get to the 10-1 and 10-2 levels, you can spot most of the lesser players the table and it's little different from giving them the 7 out.

At higher levels, spots mean less.

If you have two 10-2's playing each other, they can alternate who gives who the 6 out, and for the most part, it will be a toss up as to which sets are won by who.

In a race to 7 the spot is going to come into play for two games at most and at that level a three pack nullifies that advantage and is just as likely to happen.

With spots at higher levels, the guy with the stronger in tune break is the most likely to win. But guess what, without a spot, the guy with the stronger more in tune break is more likely to win.

Now with two better players a larger spot like the six or seven out makes a bigger difference, because they are more likely to be able to capitalize successfully on combo/carom opportunities, but a 10-2 is not likely to get past the six and not run out to the nine. It happens but that's less than a game in a race to seven.

Regardless of the spots, the most likely thing is that the better players will win. Some people catch on to this and they are therefore less likely to want to continue to play week after week. This is why room owners tend to bar the better players. Now if a lesser player is getting a huge spot and they get on a streak, they can win, but the majority of the time the better player will win.

In the local tourney's I play in we have a A2, A, B, C, D rating system and in the five or so tourney's I've played in, the ONLY matches I lost were to other A2 players, even with the underrated players.

that's not to say that I can't lose to lesser players while giving up big spots, but it's not likely that better players will lose to lesser players.

Jaden

 

[Fast Lenny]

No we're falling a little short but we're doing better than 75 percent which pays the biggest bills. thanks, M

Did the raffle happen yet?

 

[mlalum]

Did the raffle happen yet?

Wednesday night at Stingers.

 

[12310bch]

Ray,

Not only that, most of them hold regular tournaments just for their players. This all creates tough competition for the independent tournaments.


Roger

Roger that , Roger. I'd love to play in tournaments at Bullshooters but it is so wrapped up in league stuff and DCT that it ignores the independent, non-joining , afraid of commitment guys like me. Maybe missing an opportunity to sign me up.

As an aside ,it's sort of humorous how everybody on AZB," hates to disagree
with my friend etc,etc." but then don't hesitate to do so.:hug:then :bash:

 

[Fast Lenny]

Wednesday night at Stingers.

Very cool, if Alicia and Nick make it to Kolby's I am sure they can sell some tickets there on Tuesday night.

 

[stuckart]

Roger that , Roger. I'd love to play in tournaments at Bullshooters but it is so wrapped up in league stuff and DCT that it ignores the independent, non-joining , afraid of commitment guys like me. Maybe missing an opportunity to sign me up.

As an aside ,it's sort of humorous how everybody on AZB," hates to disagree
with my friend etc,etc." but then don't hesitate to do so.:hug:then :bash:

George, if the DCT offered next to nothing entry fee for players at your level, would you come out and give it a shot? Plus maybe waiving the yearly membership or highly reduced?

I was just thinking that sponsoring rooms might love to see full 64 person fields, even if a bunch of 5's and 6's are in the mix to challenge themselves with no real chance of winning the tournament against the 10's.

 

[Roger Long]

As an aside ,it's sort of humorous how everybody on AZB," hates to disagree with my friend etc,etc." but then don't hesitate to do so.:hug:then :bash:

George:

Disagreements and ratings (same thing) are what make the world go round.

Roger

 

[Fast Lenny]

George, if the DCT offered next to nothing entry fee for players at your level, would you come out and give it a shot? Plus maybe waiving the yearly membership or highly reduced?

I was just thinking that sponsoring rooms might love to see full 64 person fields, even if a bunch of 5's and 6's are in the mix to challenge themselves with no real chance of winning the tournament against the 10's.

I like this idea Jerry of offering a very low entry fee for 5's and 6'd which would be considered low C and D players. Perhaps a $20 entry or something along those lines.

 

[Jimmy M.]

I don't know what you guys are talking about but ...

Without the rating system, the higher rated players in the state wouldn't have any good weekly tournaments to play in!

Uhhh .... wait a minute.

 

[Roger Long]

I like this idea Jerry of offering a very low entry fee for 5's and 6'd which would be considered low C and D players. Perhaps a $20 entry or something along those lines.

I actually think you'd have to go lower than that; probably more like $10-$15. Then lower the races, but don't give any handicaps.

That's how it was done at the "big tournament" at Pappy's that was mentioned earlier (if it's the same tournament I remember). That was part of the old McDermott Tour and it was a race to 7, 9-ball, DE, $15 entry, with $3,000 added, and it drew 84 players. It was a great tournament, but when you look at the low entry fee and the high money added, it's no secret why it drew so many players.

Roger

 

[stuckart]

They changed it specifically because they were getting fewer players. And for awhile at least - parts of last season - they got a few more. But for the official count Dennis or Jude would be best to answer.

I just so happen to have a full story from each of the DCT Events with numbers supporting them on my little pool website.

2008: http://www.azpoolscene.com/Classic2008.html
Stop 1: Bar Box 10-Ball, Frost, 57 players
Stop 2: Big Table 8-Ball, Danny Smith, 40 players
Stop 3: Straight Pool *, Bernie Pettipiece, 42 players
Stop 4: Bar Box 9-Ball, Mendoza, 38 players
Stop 5: Big Table 9-Ball, Mitch, 43 players
Stop 6: Bar Box 8-Ball, Rudy, 35 players
Stop 7: One-Pocket *, Frost, 46 players
Stop 8: Big Table 10-Ball, Frost, 66 players
Stop 9: Big Table 8-Ball, Mitch, 36 players
Finale: Bar Box 10-Ball, Frost, 50 players


2009
Stop 1: Big Table 8-ball, Winner Leil Gay, 49 players
Stop 2: Barbox 8-ball, Winner Frost, 50 players
Stop 3: 14.1, Winner Gus, 31 players
Stop 4-5: ??
Stop 6: 1 pocket, Winner Mitch, 36 players
Stop 7: Big Table 10-ball, Winner Dennis, 38 players
Stop 8: Big Table 9-ball, Winner Mitch, 38 players
Stop 9: Big Table 10-ball, Winner Frost, 38 players
Bonus Stop: Barbox 8-ball, Winner Frost, 29 players

2010
Stop 1: US Open 10-ball Qualifier, Winner Gus, 56 players
Stop 2: Barbox 8-ball, Winner Frost, 31 players
B/C Event: Barbox 9-ball, Winner Jude, 36 players
Stop 3: 14.1, Winner Bernie Pettipiece, 28 players
Stop 4: 1 pocket, Winner Mike Pankoff, 45 players
Stop 5: Bar Table 10-ball, Winner Jon Smith, 39 players
Stop 6: Barbox 9-ball, Winner Nick De Leon, 29 players
Stop 7: Big Table 9-ball, Winner Nick De Leon, 31 players
Stop 8: Big Table 8-ball, Winner Bobby Emmons, 29 players
Finale: Big Table 10-ball, Winner Bobby Emmons, 40 players

2011
Stop 1: Bar Table 10-ball, Winner Mitch Ellerman, 28 players

 

[Fast Lenny]

So the numbers look down but not a huge drop, looks like its still pretty successful but I am sure there are some things that can be done to improve it. Perhaps players who like the tour support it by printing up the tour schedule or whatever upcoming event and post it in there poolroom. Some poolrooms wont be cool with it but these are state championship events and more people should be in support of it and do what they can.

I think a good way to get participants also is for the smaller weekly tournaments to take some of the monies gathered and give a spot out to a DCT event either randomly or for the 2nd and 3rd place finishers. Not sure if that would work but its an idea, especially would work if the event is being held in that room. Just some ideas which sound good on paper but like anything could be totally worthless.

 

[Jimmy M.]

These numbers aren't 100% accurate since we're missing 2 events in 2009, but here are the average number of entries per year based on the numbers that Jerry posted:

2008: 45.3
2009: 38.6
2010: 36.4

 

[12310bch]

Jerry, it's not the money that keeps me from joining the DCT. As you probably know I'll play in anything my wife will let me off the leash for.
I just think of the DCT as a tour for the top players and I respect that.
I'm not sure that if you made it non-exclusive the monsters might resent it and stop playing because it will lose it's status.

There are more tournaments out there for me than I can enter. I've been beat by just everybody in the Phoenix area. I mentioned the DCT and Bullshooters because it's a really great room and I wish I had more opportunity to compete in something there but I think of the DCT as being for upper level players and maybe it should stay that way.

I don't whine about anything except about people who whine. I'm having a ball shooting pool around here. Win or lose.

 

[BRKNRUN]

The problem is not with the rating system....It is also not that the better players would win....

The problem is very similar to the problem that golf courses have in the valley of getting play and also turning a profit.

Golf courses in the valley have a problem of too many courses and not enough players.....It was very popular to have a home on a golf course....so these smart thinking development companies said ....hey lets build a golf course so that we can sell all these homes....and then dump the golf course for cost to a Golf Course Management Company......Now there are too many Golf courses and it is next to impossible to turn a profit..."in season" forget the summer months...The same problem happened with tournaments....Bar room owners said....More and more bar owners said...hey the pool room down the street and the bar across town has huge tournaments...lets start one of our own....Now there are too many tournaments in the valley, and WAY to many for lower rated players...so much so that many of the advertised events don't even happen....This never seemed to be a problem 10 years ago.

The lower rated player tourneys are spread so thin because there are two and three possible tournaments to play in practically every weekend.

With so many options....why would someone that has a low rating play in the DCT event....There is ALWAYS going to be a low rated event going on the same day...and it could be right down the street.

There are probably less than 100 9s and above in the valley (probably less than that).....if half show up to the event you get 50 players.....

There are only a handful of 8s that want to play in a (REAL) tournament....the rest of the valleys 8 and below players are not interested in getting better, or playing in a (Real) event...they would much rather limit their advancement of the game by only playing weaker players that will not "test" their abilities.

IF a lower rated player tries to venture out into a (REAL) tournament...they end up getting drilled because they have NEVER played anyone that knows how to run out or how to play strong safes and control the table....They may be good shot makers, but the glaring weakness in their game shows badly.

It is like going from a 3/6 holdem house game to a No Limit WSOP event....They have no idea what they are doing.

So.....then the lower rated player says to themselves....The DCT or "open" events are "only for good players" and they don't return....they then go back to their lower rated events that will only get them so far in their development and there they stay.........Wondering how those good players got so good????

IF there were not so many "low" rated events....It would force lower rated players to actually develop their game so that they could compete....new players would develop and grow the tour and or open events....and the players that are "developed" would continue to play because there would be something to play for with field of 60+ players.

In short.....I think the pool scene needs to die in this town.....so it can be resurrected by a few rooms that have select events.....that will draw bigger fields.

That will never happen though...because as soon as a room advertises a big added money event with low entry....some other room/bar owner will schedule an event on the same day just to spite the other room/bar.

and the cycle continues.......


Or....it could be all the poker tournaments that are killing the pool scene....I don't know...

 

[vagabond]

Without the rating system, the higher rated players in the state wouldn't have any good weekly tournaments to play in!

Uhhh .... wait a minute.

Yo Jimmy,
Everybody knows that for nearly 12 years you were not allowed to play in many of those tournaments in Arizona because you were not humble and u became a show off by running the racks and beating everybody. If u learn to be humble by adjusting the stroke to miss few balls now and then,miss the position few times loosing matches then your rating will drop to 8 and u can play again. LOL:thumbup:

 

[mlalum]

The problem is not with the rating system....It is also not that the better players would win....

The lower rated player tourneys are spread so thin because there are two and three possible tournaments to play in practically every weekend.

With so many options....why would someone that has a low rating play in the DCT event....There is ALWAYS going to be a low rated event going on the same day...and it could be right down the street.

There are probably less than 100 9s and above in the valley (probably less than that).....if half show up to the event you get 50 players.....

There are only a handful of 8s that want to play in a (REAL) tournament....the rest of the valleys 8 and below players are not interested in getting better, or playing in a (Real) event...they would much rather limit their advancement of the game by only playing weaker players that will not "test" their abilities.

IF a lower rated player tries to venture out into a (REAL) tournament...they end up getting drilled because they have NEVER played anyone that knows how to run out or how to play strong safes and control the table....They may be good shot makers, but the glaring weakness in their game shows badly.

It is like going from a 3/6 holdem house game to a No Limit WSOP event....They have no idea what they are doing.

So.....then the lower rated player says to themselves....The DCT or "open" events are "only for good players" and they don't return....they then go back to their lower rated events that will only get them so far in their development and there they stay.........Wondering how those good players got so good????

IF there were not so many "low" rated events....It would force lower rated players to actually develop their game so that they could compete....new players would develop and grow the tour and or open events....and the players that are "developed" would continue to play because there would be something to play for with field of 60+ players.

In short.....I think the pool scene needs to die in this town.....so it can be resurrected by a few rooms that have select events.....that will draw bigger fields.

That will never happen though...because as soon as a room advertises a big added money event with low entry....some other room/bar owner will schedule an event on the same day just to spite the other room/bar.

and the cycle continues.......


..

Well in all due respect Ken I think your arguments are mostly absurd.

As a lower-rated player I play in a few DCTs and a few 8 and unders and rarely a 7 an under. And none of your theories determine when and if i play at all.

I play a few DCTs for fun and not because of any of those reasons you great players think I should play. I rarely play the lower handicap because a lot of each handicap turn them into ROB fests every week. It amazes me people try to make a living on sandbagging monthly tournaments. But it certainly happens. People game the system no matter what the system is.

And the other smaller part of it is who wants to play with the great Valley players. Many of them show a complete disdain for lesser players. I certainly never see em actually try to promote tournaments. You certainly can't practice with them without paying a toll.

Are there frailities in the system absolutely.

But lost in this discussion is the question if all you 9s and 10s want tournaments for yourselves so bad why don't you start any. If you had any kind of numbers at all you certainly could talk a bar owner into holding it. Tell me please what's stopping you. Stop whining and start a tournament. A couple bars have tried open tournament and got nothing. Where were you guys then.

The DCT was an open tournament. But Dennis made a business decision to try and improve the tournament. That's his call because he's created the thing and has to put with all the bellyaching. Like the last DCT tourney i played where one of the stars was complaining to Dennis because he got a bye. Nice.

But the worst of it is going to the dct tournaments and having to listen to all the stars complain about the handicapping system. blah. blah. Who wins the tournaments. The stars.

I don't know fellows. I think you'd complain if you were hung with a new rope. If you want open tournaments start em and play in them. But Ken you needn't slam lesser players because they might want to just play for the fun of it. No one is obligated to follow your rules of how an adult you should decide to pursue their hobby of pool.

 

[12310bch]

Thank you Mlalum, for sticking up for us two-bit pool hustlers. B&R spun a lot of what I said into a negative. I would gladly play DCT ,even with no hope of winning , if I thought I could give those guys a game. But I can't and I have too much respect for the work they have put into excelling to waste their time having to play me.

Maybe at my level I've never played in a REAL tournament like Ken has but I've paid my entry fee to be on the table with some of the best players in the valley, as opponents and as partners. So with all due respect for Ken's expertise at the game, :kma:, Ken. I don't doubt that you'll probably take some of my money too. Maybe you already have. But you shouldn't disrespect people who love the game as much or more than you do.^l^^

 

[Jimmy M.]

Yo Jimmy,
Everybody knows that for nearly 12 years you were not allowed to play in many of those tournaments in Arizona because you were not humble and u became a show off by running the racks and beating everybody. If u learn to be humble by adjusting the stroke to miss few balls now and then,miss the position few times loosing matches then your rating will drop to 8 and u can play again. LOL:thumbup:

Well I'm not humble now. I just can't play a lick anymore!

I don't know how many people in this state would swim a river of sh*t to play me now, but I suspect that number is high!

 

[abie10]

lower rated players are definately looked down upon (broad generalization) in phoenix. as the lowest rated player in the DCT events, I can agree with a lot that has been said. First time I played in a DCT I faced a higher rated player that was a complete ass towards me. didn't think he should have had to play me (and voiced that regularly to the other higher rated players). it happens ALL the time...

the other day i entered the 8 and under 10 ball at metro. when i signed up and told them i was a 5 rated player, they laughed at me and said "are you sure you want to play in a tournament like this?" i should have taken my money and gone somewhere else, but my ego and my pride made me say yes. i don't think i'll be playing there for a while.

i have been told i have to "earn my right" to play with the good players. that i shouldn't be able to walk in and pay a lower entry to play against people like mitch ellerman and tres kane and nick deleon...(2 of those guys didn't say that btw...but 1 did) but i disagree.

tournaments need people like me to play if they want to succeed. you need to expand your horizons and get your heads out of the dark, seedy pool halls you are used to and see what it's like in today's world. this isn't the 70's or the 80's...the color of money isn't what's big right now...wake up and welcome the newer, lower rated players...