The Arizona Rating System

[Jimmy M.]

I find it hard to believe that you'd get this attitude playing against the higher rated players in one of the DCT events, especially with any of the 3 players that you mentioned. Are you sure that you didn't overhear something out of context, or mistake some other behavior to mean that they didn't want you playing? I'd have an easier time seeing it if you mentioned some other players around here, but that seems out of character for the ones that you mentioned.

lower rated players are definately looked down upon (broad generalization) in phoenix. as the lowest rated player in the DCT events, I can agree with a lot that has been said. First time I played in a DCT I faced a higher rated player that was a complete ass towards me. didn't think he should have had to play me (and voiced that regularly to the other higher rated players). it happens ALL the time...

the other day i entered the 8 and under 10 ball at metro. when i signed up and told them i was a 5 rated player, they laughed at me and said "are you sure you want to play in a tournament like this?" i should have taken my money and gone somewhere else, but my ego and my pride made me say yes. i don't think i'll be playing there for a while.

i have been told i have to "earn my right" to play with the good players. that i shouldn't be able to walk in and pay a lower entry to play against people like mitch ellerman and tres kane and nick deleon...(2 of those guys didn't say that btw...but 1 did) but i disagree.

tournaments need people like me to play if they want to succeed. you need to expand your horizons and get your heads out of the dark, seedy pool halls you are used to and see what it's like in today's world. this isn't the 70's or the 80's...the color of money isn't what's big right now...wake up and welcome the newer, lower rated players...

 

[mlalum]

I find it hard to believe that you'd get this attitude playing against the higher rated players in one of the DCT events, especially with any of the 3 players that you mentioned. Are you sure that you didn't overhear something out of context, or mistake some other behavior to mean that they didn't want you playing? I'd have an easier time seeing it if you mentioned some other players around here, but that seems out of character for the ones that you mentioned.

I"ve actually heard this speech more than once from Mitch and Tres at DCT events. They're both good guys but they're very willing to tell you that you should pay your dues because that's what they did. I think it's missing the point in a big way and a detriment to building a tournament. The last time I heard the handicap speech from Mitch he went on to win the tournament. Again it's their opinion and they have a right to it. Still, not everyone thinks its important to spend half your life in a poolroom. It's not a badge of honor to us. But as Terry O. would say: We're just some non-playin m..... f..... civilians.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Well in all due respect Ken I think your arguments are mostly absurd.

As a lower-rated player I play in a few DCTs and a few 8 and unders and rarely a 7 an under. And none of your theories determine when and if i play at all.

I play a few DCTs for fun and not because of any of those reasons you great players think I should play. I rarely play the lower handicap because a lot of each handicap turn them into ROB fests every week. It amazes me people try to make a living on sandbagging monthly tournaments. But it certainly happens. People game the system no matter what the system is.

And the other smaller part of it is who wants to play with the great Valley players. Many of them show a complete disdain for lesser players. I certainly never see em actually try to promote tournaments. You certainly can't practice with them without paying a toll.

Are there frailities in the system absolutely.

But lost in this discussion is the question if all you 9s and 10s want tournaments for yourselves so bad why don't you start any. If you had any kind of numbers at all you certainly could talk a bar owner into holding it. Tell me please what's stopping you. Stop whining and start a tournament. A couple bars have tried open tournament and got nothing. Where were you guys then.

The DCT was an open tournament. But Dennis made a business decision to try and improve the tournament. That's his call because he's created the thing and has to put with all the bellyaching. Like the last DCT tourney i played where one of the stars was complaining to Dennis because he got a bye. Nice.

But the worst of it is going to the dct tournaments and having to listen to all the stars complain about the handicapping system. blah. blah. Who wins the tournaments. The stars.

I don't know fellows. I think you'd complain if you were hung with a new rope. If you want open tournaments start em and play in them. But Ken you needn't slam lesser players because they might want to just play for the fun of it. No one is obligated to follow your rules of how an adult you should decide to pursue their hobby of pool.

First off...I am not a 9...I am only a lowly 8 rated player...Second...I will talk/work with anyone at improving high or low rated players....but again...I am only a lowly 8 rated player......I doubt any of the higher rated players really want to know what I think....I stayed after league one night and talked with a few players from one of the teams and showed them a few things they had questions about...no charge...One of them ended up beating me the next time we played a game.

You think I am complaining or bashing the lower rated players.....but you are wrong...I am merly trying to motivate the lower rated players.....Frankly I am one of them....

BTW.....You are one of the "handful"......besides that...this is not a knock on lower rated players...this is a knock on the system that guides the lower rated player down that path. There are SO MANY lower rated only player events...why would a player ever want to venture out and play in an "open" event.

Perhaps I chose strong words....but IMHO that is what is needed before anyone gets motivated...

Let is not forget that I was drawn down that path myself....I played in way to many 7 and under and 8 and under events.....When I did try and enter a "open" event.....I got drilled...over and over...Playing in those handicap events taught me to play weak....I would miss and not worry because I knew I would get at least one more opportunity at the table....You can only improve so much playing in "rated" events...That is my opinion...you don't have to agree.

IMO....the rating system caused it to take me longer to improve...

An a recent event I was drawn into that same stupid mindset in a 8 and under event and it cost me....I went into the match thinking "oh I am playing a 7, I will get shots when he misses".....To my surprise I ended up playing when of those "sandbagging" 7s and the guy never missed one ball the whole set....(NOT ONE BALL)....by three games in (and knowing I am giving weight)....I was mentally done in that match.

Had he been an 8 or had it been an open event...I probably would have at least won 1 game....because I would have been in a different mindset going in.....Obviously my fault....but it is the "labeling" of players that causes this mindset of what a person is "supposed" to play like...and for the most part they do....(except for a few sandbaggers)

I was not the only 8 that got drilled by this guy....He rolled pretty much unbeaten to the hot seat match.

You may call it absurd...and that is fine...you have every right to your opinion....But like it or not I call it like I see it.

BTW...Becuase I am a gluten for punishment.....I will be at Stingers this weekend...Hopefully I am not wasting my time driving down there.

 

[Jimmy M.]

I"ve actually heard this speech more than once from Mitch and Tres at DCT events. They're both good guys but they're very willing to tell you that you should pay your dues because that's what they did. I think it's missing the point in a big way and a detriment to building a tournament. The last time I heard the handicap speech from Mitch he went on to win the tournament. Again it's their opinion and they have a right to it. Still, not everyone thinks its important to spend half your life in a poolroom. It's not a badge of honor to us. But as Terry O. would say: We're just some non-playin m..... f..... civilians.

You've heard the speech against handicaps, or that they feel that lower rated players should not be allowed to play in the same tournaments as them? I understood the post to which I was replying to say that these players were basically saying that he should not have the right to pay his entry fee and play with those guys.

I could understand an argument against handicapping the DCT tournaments, but I really can't understand any argument not to allow lower rated players to participate at all.

 

[mlalum]

First off...I am not a 9...I am only a lowly 8 rated player...Second...I will talk/work with anyone at improving high or low rated players....but again...I am only a lowly 8 rated player......I doubt any of the higher rated players really want to know what I think....I stayed after league one night and talked with a few players from one of the teams and showed them a few things they had questions about...no charge...One of them ended up beating me the next time we played a game.

You think I am complaining or bashing the lower rated players.....but you are wrong...I am merly trying to motivate the lower rated players.....Frankly I am one of them....

BTW.....You are one of the "handful"......besides that...this is not a knock on lower rated players...this is a knock on the system that guides the lower rated player down that path. There are SO MANY lower rated only player events...why would a player ever want to venture out and play in an "open" event.

Perhaps I chose strong words....but IMHO that is what is needed before anyone gets motivated...

Let is not forget that I was drawn down that path myself....I played in way to many 7 and under and 8 and under events.....When I did try and enter a "open" event.....I got drilled...over and over...Playing in those handicap events taught me to play weak....I would miss and not worry because I knew I would get at least one more opportunity at the table....You can only improve so much playing in "rated" events...That is my opinion...you don't have to agree.

IMO....the rating system caused it to take me longer to improve...

An a recent event I was drawn into that same stupid mindset in a 8 and under event and it cost me....I went into the match thinking "oh I am playing a 7, I will get shots when he misses".....To my surprise I ended up playing when of those "sandbagging" 7s and the guy never missed one ball the whole set....(NOT ONE BALL)....by three games in (and knowing I am giving weight)....I was mentally done in that match.

Had he been an 8 or had it been an open event...I probably would have at least won 1 game....because I would have been in a different mindset going in.....Obviously my fault....but it is the "labeling" of players that causes this mindset of what a person is "supposed" to play like...and for the most part they do....(except for a few sandbaggers)

I was not the only 8 that got drilled by this guy....He rolled pretty much unbeaten to the hot seat match.

You may call it absurd...and that is fine...you have every right to your opinion....But like it or not I call it like I see it.

BTW...Becuase I am a gluten for punishment.....I will be at Stingers this weekend...Hopefully I am not wasting my time driving down there.

Well in my opinion Ken you didn't use strong words you used the wrong words. Who made you chief motivator anyway. And why do you think people will listen to you when you're insulting them. Your words were not only insulting to lower level players you were assuming things you don't have the slightest idea about. And again people get to choose how they play and how much they play pool. That's not yours or anybody else's job. Please remember it's not the lower level players that are determining what tournaments are put on. Demand is. If you want open tournaments for the better players start some. I don't see anybody volunteering. It would be interesting to see how the better players would support open tournaments. My guess is they wouldn't. But until someone steps up no one will know.

 

[grindz]

lower rated players are definately looked down upon (broad generalization) in phoenix. as the lowest rated player in the DCT events, I can agree with a lot that has been said. First time I played in a DCT I faced a higher rated player that was a complete ass towards me. didn't think he should have had to play me (and voiced that regularly to the other higher rated players). it happens ALL the time...

the other day i entered the 8 and under 10 ball at metro. when i signed up and told them i was a 5 rated player, they laughed at me and said "are you sure you want to play in a tournament like this?" i should have taken my money and gone somewhere else, but my ego and my pride made me say yes. i don't think i'll be playing there for a while.

i have been told i have to "earn my right" to play with the good players. that i shouldn't be able to walk in and pay a lower entry to play against people like mitch ellerman and tres kane and nick deleon...(2 of those guys didn't say that btw...but 1 did) but i disagree.

tournaments need people like me to play if they want to succeed. you need to expand your horizons and get your heads out of the dark, seedy pool halls you are used to and see what it's like in today's world. this isn't the 70's or the 80's...the color of money isn't what's big right now...wake up and welcome the newer, lower rated players...

You're right tournaments DO need ALL qualified players to come out and play. There must be something about you that makes people's egos come out around you for whatever reason. Pretty much all pool players have a bit of ego about their game.. myself included... although not all of them are jerks about it. Stop looking for the nastiness and enjoy the good sports out there.. there are some great guys/girls out there to meet.

I've never looked down upon anyone willing to enter a tourney that I was in, and really don't understand why anyone would. I don't enjoy sandbaggers, but never complained about an easy round. Good for you for getting out there.

td

 

[mlalum]

You've heard the speech against handicaps, or that they feel that lower rated players should not be allowed to play in the same tournaments as them? I understood the post to which I was replying to say that these players were basically saying that he should not have the right to pay his entry fee and play with those guys.

I could understand an argument against handicapping the DCT tournaments, but I really can't understand any argument not to allow lower rated players to participate at all.

Yes you're right there is a distinction there. All I can tell you is i was there for both of abie10's experiences and his account is accurate.

 

[Roger Long]

Stop looking for the nastiness and enjoy the good sports out there.. there are some great guys/girls out there to meet.

Apparently, you've never met Abie, Tim. He's one of the nicest guys you'd ever want to meet. He never looks for the nastiness in anyone. I think what he was trying to say was that one of the higher-rated players in the DCT openly expressed the opinion that there should not be tournaments where lower-rated players are allowed to get in at a lower entry fee, plus be given games on the wire. That's double handicapping and I can see the higher-rated player's point of view, but complaints of that nature should be taken directly to the tournament organizers, and not be voiced in front of guys like Abie who might take them as a personal insult.

Roger

 

[justadub]

Apparently, you've never met Abie, Tim. He's one of the nicest guys you'd ever want to meet. He never looks for the nastiness in anyone. I think what he was trying to say was that one of the higher-rated players in the DCT openly expressed the opinion that there should not be tournaments where lower-rated players are allowed to get in at a lower entry fee, plus be given games on the wire. That's double handicapping and I can see the higher-rated player's point of view, but complaints of that nature should be taken directly to the tournament organizers, and not be voiced in front of guys like Abie who might take them as a personal insult.

Roger

***scratching head *** How is it "double handicapping"? The entry fees have no bearing on the game. Do they?

Seems to me that it's a case of sour grapes, but I'm one of the little people that would have no practical chance, so of course I would see it that way. I suppose the top dogs don't want anyone to have it easier than them, for the chance at the same prize, and I guess there is something to that. But if you want that prize to be at least partially funded by folks that really stand no chance of cashing, you might have to make some concessions, dontcha think?

Or you could have the same smaller group play every week, for less money. That'll fix those upstart 'lesser' players.

 

[BigCat]

Ray I understand the purist argument. But you all need to face the facts. The DCT was playing exactly how you suggest. They weren't getting many players to play. They added handicap. Got more players. Made the sponsors happy. And guess what the best players still win. If you want to kill tournaments that's fine. If you want to kill the venues that support em that's not so fine and defeating your entire purpose. Some of the people in this thread who are saying play open tournaments never play the open tournaments when they were here most recently. So again i'm not understanding the value of your arguments.

I think you missed my point entirely.

In my post, I didn't suggest or write anything about the DCT. I was talking about the ratings committee and how it should not have room owners as committee members.

The last part of my post was just me reminiscing about 10 or 15 years ago.

Ray

 

[grindz]

Apparently, you've never met Abie, Tim. He's one of the nicest guys you'd ever want to meet. He never looks for the nastiness in anyone. I think what he was trying to say was that one of the higher-rated players in the DCT openly expressed the opinion that there should not be tournaments where lower-rated players are allowed to get in at a lower entry fee, plus be given games on the wire. That's double handicapping and I can see the higher-rated player's point of view, but complaints of that nature should be taken directly to the tournament organizers, and not be voiced in front of guys like Abie who might take them as a personal insult.

Roger

Thanks Roger. I get it now. I didn't know that lower handicap players were getting spotted in addition to lower entry fees. I may have a bit of a problem with that also if I were in that open class. It may help them to know how many less entries there would be if the lower rated players weren't there with the new system, and (if) how much less viability the DCT would/would not have wi/out them. I don't get the Metro thing though.

I didn't mean to infur that Abie was anything less than a 'nice guy'. It's just that a lot of players are like piranas (sp?) in the water and for whatever reason sometimes they attack! :wink: You know how it is.

I've never had anyone complain that the blind, old, shakey guy (me) was
their next draw.... or that I shouldn't be there.... but then again, I don't really listen if they are less then pleasant. I hope Abie didn't think I was dissin' him. Sorry if he did.

td

 

[BigCat]

Well in my opinion Ken you didn't use strong words you used the wrong words. Who made you chief motivator anyway. And why do you think people will listen to you when you're insulting them. Your words were not only insulting to lower level players you were assuming things you don't have the slightest idea about. And again people get to choose how they play and how much they play pool. That's not yours or anybody else's job. Please remember it's not the lower level players that are determining what tournaments are put on. Demand is. If you want open tournaments for the better players start some. I don't see anybody volunteering. It would be interesting to see how the better players would support open tournaments. My guess is they wouldn't. But until someone steps up no one will know.

Mike, in person you're a good guy and I believe you have good intentions for pool and I respect that.

But here on the forums, I've read many of your posts (both in this thread and in numerous others) and sometimes you can just be an outright a**hole in your online persona. I don't get it. It's like you actually *want* to fight and disagree with people simply for the sake of it. If Ken (or anyone else) wants to express their opinion (which you have done unsolicited numerous times on these forums), then he should be allowed.

Ken's words were not wrong or demeaning. And if you knew Ken a little better, he (much like you) wants to better pool in AZ. He may not have the same approach as you do. But when I read his post I did not think he was trying to be "chief motivator" for the AZ pool scene. He's stating his observations based on what he's seen.

As for Abie's story, we've all been on the receiving end of crappy treatment from better players. It's part of all games and sports (you don't think NFL/NBA/MLB rookie players, or amateurs trying to get there, get razzed and put down by a small number of the older pros?). I remember about 12 or 13 years ago, I was playing in a tournament and there were 2 Ray's in the tournament. One was a 9 at the time and I was rated a 6. I was called for a match and I overheard my opponent say "is that the good Ray or the crappy Ray?" Clearly, I head him and he didn't apologize to me. So be it. It didn't stop my from playing. We're all going to have experiences like this and I don't believe it should stop any lower rated player from playing. Again, JMO though.

I've personally helped Abie with his game when I was in the BCA league at Stingers. In fact I've helped numerous people over the years. I've also run the only straight pool league that Arizona has ever had (started by Jimmy Mendoza and Al Terpstra). This was before you came on the scene Mike and I only bring it up because of your comment about better players not stepping up and trying to start tournaments (or better the AZ pool scene). Some of us have contributed to the pool community over the years (both successfully and unsuccessfully) but you seem very shortsighted in the small amount of time you've been on the scene and see only what you want to see.

Ray

 

[Roger Long]

....but it is the "labeling" of players that causes this mindset of what a person is "supposed" to play like...

I couldn't agree more on this one, Ken. The ratings seem to lock in preconceived notions on how each player in any given match should play. And maybe that is one of the things they are intended to do. Maybe it goes back to the days of the calcutta where the buyers wanted to know something about the players they were buying.

Another thing the ratings seem to do is to give preconceived notions as to the value of one's opinion. Have you ever noticed that before? Whenever the highest-rated player in the room speaks, all other players in the room seem to listen and agree. It doesn't matter the age, the experience, the moral character, the civil reputation, or anything else; the person with the highest rating is accorded the highest degree of respect by all the other players in the pool room. And if a person has no rating at all, then they are not a "player" at all and therefore not listened to at all.

Now, I'm going to rate a few of the players that come into Bullshooters:

One is too short.
One is too tall.
One is too big.
One is too small.
One is too quiet.
One is too loud.
One is too humble.
One is too proud.
One is too ugly.
One is too fair.
One is too bald.
One needs less hair.

Remember, these are merely my opinions, and they are about as useful as AZ ratings.

Roger

 

[Roger Long]

***scratching head *** How is it "double handicapping"? The entry fees have no bearing on the game. Do they?

No, entry fees have no bearing on the game, but "double handicapping" is how some of the higher rated players view tournaments of that sort. I got that from one of AZ's top players when I wanted to run a tournament like that several years back. He told me I was "double handicapping" the good players by making them pay higher entry fees, and giving the "lesser" players games on the wire at the same time. He was pretty offended by that idea.

Roger

 

[Fast Lenny]

Most places when I lived in NY has an in house rating system for the tournaments to make it competitive and some places it would work well and thrive with a good owner and others would not do so well. Its not much different in Arizona, it makes things competitive.

We make the suggestion that everyone should play even and get better to play with the top guys is funny because even the top players in our state will be a huge underdog to say someone like Mitch or Scott. Sure they can lose a set but more times then not they get to the end of a tournament and in the money. If we made it so that everyone played everyone even you would have 12 guys coming out to play who are the top guys in the state and that is as long as they are not busy or something else is not going on.

There would be less tournaments without the ratings that is for sure, I have no idea how people can say it hurts tournaments and rooms. Is it because a handful of good players wont play in them? People want to have a chance to win even if its a small chance and the good players will usually get there regardless.

The biggest problem with the ratings system is some politics that go on and lack of participation with rooms. Rooms have to keep things up to date and have people added and raised who need it so they are not going to other rooms and stealing. If everyone is rated where they should be the system works.

Ken mentioned a 7 who was playing above that speed, if a player does that one set it can be overlooked but for a whole tournament is just wrong and should be brought to the attention of the tournament director.

 

[mlalum]

Mike, in person you're a good guy and I believe you have good intentions for pool and I respect that.

But here on the forums, I've read many of your posts (both in this thread and in numerous others) and sometimes you can just be an outright a**hole in your online persona. I don't get it. It's like you actually *want* to fight and disagree with people simply for the sake of it. If Ken (or anyone else) wants to express their opinion (which you have done unsolicited numerous times on these forums), then he should be allowed.

Ken's words were not wrong or demeaning. And if you knew Ken a little better, he (much like you) wants to better pool in AZ. He may not have the same approach as you do. But when I read his post I did not think he was trying to be "chief motivator" for the AZ pool scene. He's stating his observations based on what he's seen.

As for Abie's story, we've all been on the receiving end of crappy treatment from better players. It's part of all games and sports (you don't think NFL/NBA/MLB rookie players, or amateurs trying to get there, get razzed and put down by a small number of the older pros?). I remember about 12 or 13 years ago, I was playing in a tournament and there were 2 Ray's in the tournament. One was a 9 at the time and I was rated a 6. I was called for a match and I overheard my opponent say "is that the good Ray or the crappy Ray?" Clearly, I head him and he didn't apologize to me. So be it. It didn't stop my from playing. We're all going to have experiences like this and I don't believe it should stop any lower rated player from playing. Again, JMO though.

I've personally helped Abie with his game when I was in the BCA league at Stingers. In fact I've helped numerous people over the years. I've also run the only straight pool league that Arizona has ever had (started by Jimmy Mendoza and Al Terpstra). This was before you came on the scene Mike and I only bring it up because of your comment about better players not stepping up and trying to start tournaments (or better the AZ pool scene). Some of us have contributed to the pool community over the years (both successfully and unsuccessfully) but you seem very shortsighted in the small amount of time you've been on the scene and see only what you want to see.

Ray

Ray your opinion is fine with me. Your assessment of my behavior on the forums is fine too. I said what i disliked about Ken's post and i stand by it.

Everyone hammers on the rating system failure. But it works to some degree and in almost all the negative statements there is the tone of well people aught to just get better like the good players so there won't be a problem. There will always be a problem. Many systems don't fail, people fail. Kolby's has a very tightly run inhouse handicap system that works but you can't expect every room to be able to do that. And the high rated players are forever being derogatory about bangers and handicaps as if they offer anything better in return. The undertone being we the good players are entitled because we're good pool players. No one is entitled to anything.

I'm not claiming to be contributing to the az pool scene. I have no aspirations regarding pool. I'm not a pool player. I don't know what others contribute to the scene as i'm not part of it. But i play in tournaments occassionally and I see what happens. It's not rocket science Ray. And because of this forum i get an opinion.

What i see is the good players ALWAYS complaining about the handicap tournaments. And not doing a single thing to help the people who work hard trying to make the system work as best they can so the bars and rooms stay alive. And worse having the power to start the kind of tournament they think is the big answer but never doing a thing about it. We'll just take what we can and complain about the rest.

 

[stuckart]

Here are all of the issues that I see being the problem with Pool right now. Not in any particular order.

1. Too many places holding tournaments (Dilution)
2. Down Economy (Money)
3. Higher Rated Players always win, therefore Lower Rated stop coming
4. High Percent of Lower Rated Players don't list "Being the Best Pool Player that I can Be" in their top 5-10 priorities in life.
5. Lower Rated Player had 1 or 2 Bad experiences with Higher Rated Player
6. A lot of players can't sign on for Multiple Day Tournaments
7. Players are aware of Sandbagging happened by certain people or rooms
8. Higher Rated Players get special attention or treatment which doesn't fly with all the Lower Rated Players
9. Player(s) are loyal to one particular room or another and the Politics prevent them from playing in a competing rooms tournament.
10. Bad Experience with TD, Room Owner or Patron(s), including Karaoke, Drunks, Younger Crowd, Tables, Cost, etc.
11. Many Lower rated players play only to have fun with friends and Tournaments can take that fun away for many reasons.
12. Week Day tournaments take too long into the night for Working Folks!
13. Not Everyone Likes Scotch Doubles and that's all that seems to Happen around Arizona lately.
14. We live in Arizona and are surrounded by so many other things to do, Golfing, Biking, Hiking, Concerts, Vegas, Cali, Mexico, NFL, NBA, Hockey, ASU, UofA, Parks, Night Life, Skiing, Flagstaf, Lakes, Dining, Drinking, etc. etc. Pool is only a priority to a select few, I'd say less than 5% of all players in the state.
15. Probably more that I'm forgetting.........


Before you disagree with any of these items, let me tell you that having been on the committee, having run tournaments of all ratings including Opens, talking to many different rated players, running my little pool website, etc. I have heard all of these things so many different times by many different players. They are all real reasons why numbers are down.

For the DCT Specifically, I've heard excuses 2-6, 8, 10 and 14.

 

[Jimmy M.]

Now, I'm going to rate a few of the players that come into Bullshooters:

One is too short.
One is too tall.
One is too big.
One is too small.
One is too quiet.
One is too loud.
One is too humble.
One is too proud.
One is too ugly.
One is too fair.
One is too bald.
One needs less hair.

Remember, these are merely my opinions, and they are about as useful as AZ ratings.

Roger

I don't go to Bullshooters very often, or any pool room these days, for that matter, but I take offense with this. I'm certain that you're talking about me in at least one of those "ratings"! What do you mean "too short"?! "Too bald"?! What are you trying to say here??

Actually, I take that back. You're probably talking about Jude with the "short" rating. But I resent the bald comment and so does Ken!

 

[abie10]

this right here...all of this right here, show why the APA and my "Get-A-Cue League" (cheap plug :thumbup: ) have it right.

don't forget why you play the game. there are people in my league that are 1-15 on the season and yet they keep coming back. you don't hear about them complaining because they are playing better players. you only hear about all the fun the people are having. if you don't believe it, come watch on a monday night...in fact, you will see players coaching their opponents to actually beat them.

people call it grassroots, i call it pool. oh and guess what? there are no ratings in this league, no handicaps...it's fun.

yes, this might have nothing to do with all your "elite tournaments" and "ratings committee's" but at the same time ... maybe it does.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Well in my opinion Ken you didn't use strong words you used the wrong words. Who made you chief motivator anyway. And why do you think people will listen to you when you're insulting them. Your words were not only insulting to lower level players you were assuming things you don't have the slightest idea about. And again people get to choose how they play and how much they play pool. That's not yours or anybody else's job. Please remember it's not the lower level players that are determining what tournaments are put on. Demand is. If you want open tournaments for the better players start some. I don't see anybody volunteering. It would be interesting to see how the better players would support open tournaments. My guess is they wouldn't. But until someone steps up no one will know.

It is not the "people" that need to listen to me....It is the system itself that needs to listen to me. If you had really paid attention to what you read...you would see that it is the system itself that is hindering the betterment of pool by limiting the talent level...The system does not promote a player to get better...The system promotes a player to get drunk and play like a donkey so they can keep a lower rating level

I have come up with a system that would work in this valley....and it would include and be fun/fair for all players...including players that are on the bottom end of the skill level....How does free entry sound?

The problem with my system...and is one of two reasons it has not been implemented is that it would make the current rating system obsolete and would eliminate the need for a rating comitee....I am sure that would not sit well with the committee.

It would also eliminate the need to bump a player from being able to play...any and all players would be welcome...even the out of town road player that no one has ever seen....Oh...and it would also eliminate the sandbagging.....It may still happen but it would not be to benefit from the tournament...It would be to set up some unsuspecting greedy sucker.

I guarantee that lower rated players games would improve and fields would be bigger (in the rooms that run a good event)

I find it hard to believe that any person would not get more enjoyment out of the game if they played better and improved.

A system that limits the talent in the field is destined to have only weak talent.

Did you know that a current 9 rated player in Arizona is barely above average against a field of players in California tournament? A current 8 rated player is a long shot just to cash in an event in California.....Obviously this is just my point of view...but I suspect it is pretty close to accurate.......

Actually this made me remember a line from a top player well known in this state and in California......A above average player in this town (Arizona) is only an average player in San Diego...That same above average player from this town (AZ) at Hard Times Bellflower.........Is a sucker.

Over the years I have seen players that were in this town stay 7-8 rated players for years...they move away to a state with no handicap system and come back strong 9s and 10s.....Go figure.

I won't waste my tame trying to argue with you....Your track record on this board tells me that it would be just like arguing with a well known cowboy....actually the cowboy is a bit more civil than you

But I will say this.....I have been in your shoes as a 7 rated player, able to play anywhere anytime....I have also been in the shoes of a 9 rated player (before the drop) and not allowed to play in pretty much anything except the DCT events.

After you have had an opportunity to experience both worlds like I have and have the slightest idea yourself........then come talk to me and tell me I don't have the slightest idea.

I should have just gone with my first intended post.....Talking about the rating system on this board is a complete waste of time.