The Arizona Rating System

For your knowledge. It wasn't two "8's" in the finals it was a seven and a eight and the hotseat belonged to a seven.......me. J.R won the tournament final set went hill-hill. On a barbox there is not alot of difference between 7 and 8


Chad

Congratulations Chad. I would have thought it would be Brian and JR in the finals. I still disagree about the difference between a 7 and JR. Decidedly not much difference between some 7 and some 8s on a barbox. But i would be happy to take JR against any 7 and give up a game for whatever amount.

i do think that the number system is slightly better than the letter system. There are smaller gaps. So good for you. Remember I'm for a handicap system. Not against it. I just think the argument from good players that it's not in their favor is incorrect. You beat the odds. Good job. And remember Ken played very well and placed high in a DCT tournament recently. He was not a favorite to do that. It's possible to outrun the nuts on occasion. That's why bad players like me keep playing in the handicap tourneys.
 
Congrat's to JR for 1st, Chad for 2nd and Carlos for his 3rd place finish. Brian Reich finished in 4th place.

I agree Mike that the Rating system is doing exactly what you say. The system is not meant to make things exactly even between races. The higher rated players still have the advantage in the races.

In full race tournaments it's even more of an advantage to the higher rated players. You have to remember that the number system in place was made to be the handicap in a full race. In a race between a 7 and an 8 the race should be very close and many times go hill-hill. An 8 needs to win 57% of the games to advance (8-6).

In the weekly tournaments around the valley many of the tournaments are adjusted due to time constraints to be Handicap - 3 tournaments. In this case the 8's race to 5 and the 7's race to 4. As you can imagine the 7 can get there more often in this shorter race. An 8 needs to win 62.5% of the games (5-3). And on a barbox with winner breaks we all know that anyone can win. ("Anyone can win" is what brings more players out to fill out the tournaments.)

One other item that I don't agree with many of you on is the statement I keep hearing that "Players will never get better if they don't play higher rated players." and "If you only play rated tournaments like 7 & Under's you will never improve."

I don't know how many times I've played in a rated tournament and found myself down 2-0 or 3-0 early with my opponent needing 1 or 2 and I needed to go to 5 or 6. In these matches I had to play perfect pool (near 10 speed) to be able to come back and win these matches. Early on I found myself sent to the losers side of the board in these matches, but I had to learn how to overcome those matches and come out on top. Players can challenge themselves in playing against nearly anyone.

I'm not saying that you can't learn from playing higher level players, but it's not the only way to get better.

If it wasn't for rated tournaments I know many players that would have never fell in love with this game. I was rated a 7 when I moved here in 2002 and once I got a taste of winning some lower rated tournaments I was hooked.
 
Last edited:
Congrat's to JR for 1st, Chad for 2nd and Carlos for his 3rd place finish. Brian Reich finished in 4th place.

I agree Mike that the Rating system is doing exactly what you say. The system is not meant to make things exactly even between races. The higher rated players still have the advantage in the races.

In full race tournaments it's even more of an advantage to the higher rated players. You have to remember that the number system in place was made to be the handicap in a full race. In a race between a 7 and an 8 the race should be very close and many times go hill-hill. An 8 needs to win 57% of the games to advance (8-6).

In the weekly tournaments around the valley many of the tournaments are adjusted due to time constraints to be Handicap - 3 tournaments. In this case the 8's race to 5 and the 7's race to 4. As you can imagine the 7 can get there more often in this shorter race. An 8 needs to win 62.5% of the games (5-3). And on a barbox with winner breaks we all know that anyone can win. ("Anyone can win" is what brings more players out to fill out the tournaments.)

One other item that I don't agree with many of you on is the statement I keep hearing that "Players will never get better if they don't play higher rated players." and "If you only play rated tournaments like 7 & Under's you will never improve."

I don't know how many times I've played in a rated tournament and found myself down 2-0 or 3-0 early with my opponent needing 1 or 2 and I needed to go to 5 or 6. In these matches I had to play perfect pool (near 10 speed) to be able to come back and win these matches. Early on I found myself sent to the losers side of the board in these matches, but I had to learn how to overcome those matches and come out on top. Players can challenge themselves in playing against nearly anyone.

I'm not saying that you can't learn from playing higher level players, but it's not the only way to get better.

If it wasn't for rated tournaments I know many players that would have never fell in love with this game. I was rated a 7 when I moved here in 2002 and once I got a taste of winning some lower rated tournaments I was hooked.

Well said Jerry...

The system here was around when I moved to town in the late 80's. For all the complaining I hear here, I doubt that most players have even seen what things would be like w/out the ratings. This town is a pool 'mecca' from where I sit, and no matter how high you go, there are still events within an hour drive for any rating on a weekly basis. What's there to complain about? I know that there are some people who are out of line and 'baggin' but hopefully they will be adjusted in time.

For me it's a game. If I don't have some kind of shot at getting there, I won't play. With the system in place, I believe I have that shot. (on my better days;))

td
 
If it wasn't for rated tournaments I know many players that would have never fell in love with this game. I was rated a 7 when I moved here in 2002 and once I got a taste of winning some lower rated tournaments I was hooked.

To offer another perspective, some of us saw great players and thought, "I want to be able to do THAT!", and that's what got us hooked.
 
To offer another perspective, some of us saw great players and thought, "I want to be able to do THAT!", and that's what got us hooked.

Yeah, I didn't see any great players until many years after I started playing pool. I first saw Frost play during the last year of the Olhausen Tour and I think Mitch around the time he joined the tour but could only play if his Dad was with him because he wasn't old enough. I started playing in a league around 2000 after winning a few college tournaments, but didn't even know of any pro's till maybe 04' or 05'.

You know what I think is pretty funny, is that there are so many good players around town, 8's and 9's mainly, that have no idea who any of the pro's out there are.

I was talking to Ray Shobe the other day and mentioned a match between Shane and someone and he said, "Who is Shane? Is he pretty good?" And Ray won the AZ BCA State Title back in 04' or 05'.
 
To offer another perspective, some of us saw great players and thought, "I want to be able to do THAT!", and that's what got us hooked.

You really have to get to a certain level before you even know what "THAT" is!! I think we would all agree that the more entry level players to come into the game, the better. If no one shows those players
some 'majic' they may not get interested. If they just get beat up on, then the vast majority will just exit. JMHO

I saw "THAT" about 34 years ago.... it was a 5 rail position to about a quarter size spot on a bar table. Unfortunately the majic dust just got into my soul, and not my body. :(

td
 
You really have to get to a certain level before you even know what "THAT" is!! I think we would all agree that the more entry level players to come into the game, the better. If no one shows those players
some 'majic' they may not get interested. If they just get beat up on, then the vast majority will just exit. JMHO

I saw "THAT" about 34 years ago.... it was a 5 rail position to about a quarter size spot on a bar table. Unfortunately the majic dust just got into my soul, and not my body. :(

td

What is that "That" you guys are speaking about? Am I missing something ;)
 
It appears that you guys are saying the AZ rating system is almost required to generate interest in this game. I would have to politely disagree. There are people who have become obsessed with/fallen in love with/got hooked on (or however you want to word it) this game all over the world who had no exposure to the AZ rating system.

The problem that I think you'll hear most of the better players talk about with the rating system isn't actually the system itself, but the fact that instead of using the system to handicap tournaments so that everyone can play together, the room owners and tournament directors here use it to keep the better players away all together. Going back to the idea that the system helps get people hooked on pool who otherwise would never play, I'll point out the obvious, albeit brutally honest, fact that watching a tournament full of guys who struggle to run three balls has never excited anyone to play as much as watching good players run racks and do things that a beginner never even knew was possible.
 
Coming from OH, where there is a HUGE pool playing community, there is no rating system. You match up simply based upon what you know about the other player, that's it. 99% of the tournaments are OPEN, some in house handicapping, but that's it. I've been in AZ for 10 years and only recently, past year or so, did I start playing tournaments and started playing scotch about 6 months ago. I'm mostly a league player, but I've been focusing on tournament play.

WIth that said, and since I don't post that much if at all, I've been around to many of the bars and pool halls in the Phoenix area and I've seen and met a lot of great players and people. I've also read this thread and there are a lot of valid points.

Some of the "bar" tournaments I frequent range from 5's to 9's, I see very little discouragement from the lower rated players playing the higher. It seems the lower rated players want the challenge and the higher rated players don't mind "helping out" to grow the community. Not all players are of this mentality, but I do see it spreading.

Ratings need to go back to the criteria they set when rating players. There is way too much political influence, good ole boys/girls club and frankly, people rating that shouldn't be. If there were a way to get back to basics of truly rating people, there would be minimal complaining and possibly better and even more competition.

The ratings need to be based MAINLY on singles competition. With all the scotch tournaments out there, some players are being rated solely on their scotch performance. While I feel you can rate a player on scotch play, it should be done so over a period of play, not once or twice. Obviously, there should be some discretion concerning "sandbagging" and that is usually left to the tournament director.

There are a TON of tournaments in the valley, some handicapped, some aren't, but if you listen closely, these tournaments are somewhat guarded. Why? Because a decent player will "find" one and then cherry pick it until word gets out. To top it off, once better players show up, they will have the cajones to say, "this is my tournament, what are you doing here?". Instead of keeping these tournaments quiet, wouldn't be better to get the word out? More players, better for pool...Better for the bar...Better for everyone!

Players want to MILK there 6 and 7 rating because of sandbagging and I'll admit, I used my 6 status to my advantage in quite a few tournaments until I was raised to a 7. Sandbagging exists and will always exist. But the good ole boys club of some of the bar/hall owners want to keep "their own" at a lower rating and will do whatever necessary to vote it down. You get four or five "friends" and Player "bob" isn't getting raised. If you can find a way to prevent that, good luck! I'm a strong 7, but I don't have the consistency of an 8 and believe me, I want to be an 8 and it has nothing to do with what tournaments I can or can't play in, it's my own personal thing, I want to achieve that next level....and the next. The people I play pool with have the same mentality and that's a driving force to become better players. On the flip side, you have guys who are happy to be a 6 and they aspire to continue at that level and there is nothing wrong with that. WIth all the players and mentalities, the tournaments being rated seems to be working. If all a 6 wants is 7 competition, they play in that tournament, if a 6 want's to become a better player, they will migrate to tournaments with the better players.

I hope it all changes for the better, and the main focus should be growing the pool playing community and making it as fair as possible so that everyone has fun is able to grow their game.
 
It appears that you guys are saying the AZ rating system is almost required to generate interest in this game. I would have to politely disagree. There are people who have become obsessed with/fallen in love with/got hooked on (or however you want to word it) this game all over the world who had no exposure to the AZ rating system.

The problem that I think you'll hear most of the better players talk about with the rating system isn't actually the system itself, but the fact that instead of using the system to handicap tournaments so that everyone can play together, the room owners and tournament directors here use it to keep the better players away all together. Going back to the idea that the system helps get people hooked on pool who otherwise would never play, I'll point out the obvious, albeit brutally honest, fact that watching a tournament full of guys who struggle to run three balls has never excited anyone to play as much as watching good players run racks and do things that a beginner never even knew was possible.

I see where you're coming from, and your paradigm seems to be that everyone should play together. Are you THAT old (J/K) that you were here b4 ratings were in place?? :wink: This system has generated the volume of tourneys that we have. I don't know of any other place that has what we have, do you??

More than 90% of us play the game as a hobby, pastime, or for fun, as evidenced by our low handicaps (7 and under) in the system. The dedicated few who get past there all know how much effort, drive, determination, and TIME it takes to get there and keep it. Most don't want to work that hard, and/or are held back due to some constraints.

Facts are that it's a democracy and we vote with our entry fees and patron support. The service providers know that and follow up on what works for their business plan. You guys have started your own tour to circumvent that system, which has been fantastic for the pool scene also.. (and thankyou for that!!!!) so that the higher tier players can compete evenly. Tap tap tap. I applaud your and Dennis's efforts and it's great to see you stick with it.

I do understand how it would be frustrating to get to 'lamb killer' status and then have all the lambs hide in the barn! :wink: Hope you can appreciate the other side's view, if only to help your tour to thrive even more, as it is an asset to pool in the valley.

td
 
of course not. but i wouldn't mind taking him even against any 8 in the state that isn't a ringer. M

Lock artist!

You make the argument that Higher Rated Players are still favored with the handicap and then say you'll take a top 8 rated player giving a game against any 7 in the state. Lock artist.

Now you'll take one of the top 8's and play him even against any other 8, but not the best 8's. Lock artist.

You've been hanging around with Lenny too much ;)
 
It appears that you guys are saying the AZ rating system is almost required to generate interest in this game. I would have to politely disagree. There are people who have become obsessed with/fallen in love with/got hooked on (or however you want to word it) this game all over the world who had no exposure to the AZ rating system.

The problem that I think you'll hear most of the better players talk about with the rating system isn't actually the system itself, but the fact that instead of using the system to handicap tournaments so that everyone can play together, the room owners and tournament directors here use it to keep the better players away all together. Going back to the idea that the system helps get people hooked on pool who otherwise would never play, I'll point out the obvious, albeit brutally honest, fact that watching a tournament full of guys who struggle to run three balls has never excited anyone to play as much as watching good players run racks and do things that a beginner never even knew was possible.

I appreciate your view point, I do. And I don't think we are saying it is required in anyway to grow the 'scene'. I just think it's an avenue for many players in getting 'hooked' on this sport that is often forgotten about, especially by the junkies of the sport like us that eat, sleep and shit this sport sometimes :embarrassed2:

I love playing this game, I love sweating great players matches and learning everything I can about this sport, but I think we are probably only the top 3-5% of the pool players that play regularly.
 
Lock artist!

You make the argument that Higher Rated Players are still favored with the handicap and then say you'll take a top 8 rated player giving a game against any 7 in the state. Lock artist.

Now you'll take one of the top 8's and play him even against any other 8, but not the best 8's. Lock artist.

You've been hanging around with Lenny too much ;)

ok how about i take JR against you. You're one of the best 8's right?
 
I see where you're coming from, and your paradigm seems to be that everyone should play together. Are you THAT old (J/K) that you were here b4 ratings were in place?? :wink:

I'm older than I look (I hope)! lol. I didn't start playing here in Arizona. I moved here in the 90's and the rating system was already in place. As far as everyone playing together, yes, I do think that most tournaments should be open. If not, why bother with a handicap system? The whole point of a handicap system is to try to level the playing field a bit, not establish who should be banned from tournament play all together, imo.
 
I'm older than I look (I hope)! lol. I didn't start playing here in Arizona. I moved here in the 90's and the rating system was already in place. As far as everyone playing together, yes, I do think that most tournaments should be open. If not, why bother with a handicap system? The whole point of a handicap system is to try to level the playing field a bit, not establish who should be banned from tournament play all together, imo.

I respect your viewpoint. Hope the DCT does well this year.

Now..... it's nice out. Get out and ride!!! :p

td
 
Back
Top