The Arizona Rating System

[stuckart]

I respect your viewpoint. Hope the DCT does well this year.

Now..... it's nice out. Get out and ride!!!

td

I'll be taking donations at the DCT event next weekend! **

I'm all for all events being OPEN events with the established handicap. If rooms want to restrict players make the higher players go to an additional game or something, they still might play. I would.

** (reference to players saying all they do is donate to higher rated players at the DCT)

 

[FLICKit]

I'm all for all events being OPEN events with the established handicap. If rooms want to restrict players make the higher players go to an additional game or something, they still might play. I would.

Of course wild ball systems can be a viable alternative for 9-Ball style games.
They do that here, and it's amazing how well it works.

 

[stuckart]

Of course wild ball systems can be a viable alternative for 9-Ball style games.
They do that here, and it's amazing how well it works.

I agree!

I know for sure that many rooms will not change anything that they have successfully running. But many other rooms keep trying new tournaments all the time and more Wild Ball tourneys might be the answer they need.

Difference in Handicap (9-ball)
1 - Lower players gets the 8-ball
2 - 7-ball
3 - 7-OUT (7-8-9)
4 - 6-ball
5 - 6-OUT (6-7-8-9)

 

[azbluemach1]

I have been out of the AZ tourny scene for a decade, but it doesn't sound like much has changed.

IMHO, the challenge for a ratings system is sandbaggers. The point of tournament pool is to win the $$, and I believe the rating system should be 100% based on money won.

Im not a stats expert (doesn't bode well for my poker career, but whatever), but it should be really simple to design a quantitative rating system that rates players based on money won as a function of entry fees or something.

Bottom line, if someone is cashing consistently, move them up. If someone is never in the money, move them down until they are. Of course this system would be designed to provide the ultimate parity between players, and I'm sure the best players would HATE it.

This would also eliminate all of politics involved, and basically eliminate the 'ratings board' all together.

Good for the masses and eliminates a superfluous governing board? Lol, it would NEVER happen - but it is the obvious correct answer.

 

[Jimmy M.]

Now..... it's nice out. Get out and ride!!!

That's a given! lol. I was out there today, in fact! :thumbup:

I plan to ride all I can before it gets hot ... then I'll still be out there a few times per week.

I'm actually not involved in the day-to-day stuff with the DCT anymore, but I do still maintain the website, and I plan on playing some events this year. Unfortunately I am going to have to miss the one tournament that I'm most interested in, the 14.1, because I'll be in Japan, but I will probably play in most of the others.

Take care ...

 

[Fast Lenny]

ok how about i take JR against you. You're one of the best 8's right?

I will play JR and all around format for something. He picks a game and so do I and we go to the hat if needed for the 3rd game which we both pick 2 games and which ever one is drawn we play. I like JR and think he is a better player than me but am still willing to get in the box and play with him. I was supposed to play King of the 8s with Ed Scott but I have to wait and see when he is available on a Sat. or Sun. . I doubt JR needs a backer to play me for a 100 or so a set.

 

[12310bch]

I have been out of the AZ tourny scene for a decade, but it doesn't sound like much has changed.

IMHO, the challenge for a ratings system is sandbaggers. The point of tournament pool is to win the $$, and I believe the rating system should be 100% based on money won.

Im not a stats expert (doesn't bode well for my poker career, but whatever), but it should be really simple to design a quantitative rating system that rates players based on money won as a function of entry fees or something.

Bottom line, if someone is cashing consistently, move them up. If someone is never in the money, move them down until they are. Of course this system would be designed to provide the ultimate parity between players, and I'm sure the best players would HATE it.

This would also eliminate all of politics involved, and basically eliminate the 'ratings board' all together.

Good for the masses and eliminates a superfluous governing board? Lol, it would NEVER happen - but it is the obvious correct answer.

Yeah. Provide a source document of money won so the IRS has instant access and documentation. NOT! The pool halls would be inundated with record keeping and mailing of 1099s and etc . etc. And our wives would find out ( even worse!)

 

[stuckart]

I have been out of the AZ tourny scene for a decade, but it doesn't sound like much has changed.

IMHO, the challenge for a ratings system is sandbaggers. The point of tournament pool is to win the $$, and I believe the rating system should be 100% based on money won.

Im not a stats expert (doesn't bode well for my poker career, but whatever), but it should be really simple to design a quantitative rating system that rates players based on money won as a function of entry fees or something.

Bottom line, if someone is cashing consistently, move them up. If someone is never in the money, move them down until they are. Of course this system would be designed to provide the ultimate parity between players, and I'm sure the best players would HATE it.

This would also eliminate all of politics involved, and basically eliminate the 'ratings board' all together.

Good for the masses and eliminates a superfluous governing board? Lol, it would NEVER happen - but it is the obvious correct answer.

I know this sounds like a plan that would work, and maybe if every room bought into it and provided all their statistics, but I don't see it ever happening here.

Just because someone cashes in a tourney multiple times, doesn't mean they should be raised up. Who were they playing against?

If a 7 wins a 7 & Under tournament a bunch of times, but only beat 6's and below with a few 7's thrown in, there is no justification that they should be an 8. The rating system is set in a way to make it more appealing to lower rated players, but the higher rated players are still the favorites.

Now, if the Ratings were adjusted to a point where everyone was an equal favorite to win the tournament no matter what their rating, then I could see this being the protocol to raise someone. A 5 would have to have as much weight as possible to make playing an 8 even money. How would that work?

How about this.
8's go to 7
7's go to 5
6's go to 3
5's go to 2
Who would you bet on winning the tournament?

 

[abie10]

I know this sounds like a plan that would work, and maybe if every room bought into it and provided all their statistics, but I don't see it ever happening here.

Just because someone cashes in a tourney multiple times, doesn't mean they should be raised up. Who were they playing against?

If a 7 wins a 7 & Under tournament a bunch of times, but only beat 6's and below with a few 7's thrown in, there is no justification that they should be an 8. The rating system is set in a way to make it more appealing to lower rated players, but the higher rated players are still the favorites.

Now, if the Ratings were adjusted to a point where everyone was an equal favorite to win the tournament no matter what their rating, then I could see this being the protocol to raise someone. A 5 would have to have as much weight as possible to make playing an 8 even money. How would that work?

How about this.
8's go to 7
7's go to 5
6's go to 3
5's go to 2
Who would you bet on winning the tournament?

I'm all for that. I can snipe off 2 games in a race to 7 for the other guy...lol

 

[12310bch]

Now, if the Ratings were adjusted to a point where everyone was an equal favorite to win the tournament no matter what their rating, then I could see this being the protocol to raise someone. A 5 would have to have as much weight as possible to make playing an 8 even money. How would that work?

How about this.
8's go to 7
7's go to 5
6's go to 3
5's go to 2
Who would you bet on winning the tournament?

Me. Actually the 6s would be hardest to beat. From above or below. I agree that the biggest spot should be given to the 7s over the 8s .

To me, 8s seem to be emerging monsters and are hard to overcome with a reasonable spot. I would gamble against 7 games to my 5 but would feel uncomfortable with an 8 to my 5.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Having had the time to read what I missed in this post since my last visit to AZB, IMHO the Arizona Rating System is in many way is responsible for the decline in people playing pool because of how the rating committee tries to tweak the system, again, and again.

Was it a year or so ago that the AZ Rating Committee decided to Lower everyone Rating Number so to bring players back to the Bars & Rooms to compete in tournament play, and that move appears to be a failure as player have not returned. One need only go to Metro Sport Bar to see the Nightly Tournament board is not full like it was.

The Rating System discriminates against a player who reach being a “9“ under the old ratings number, now an “8” under the new rating number as when you become the worst of the best, an old “9”, or new “8”, fewer nightly tournaments are available for you to play in. So why play better, as it will only penalize you, and limit your opportunities to play.

Think you have the sand baggers who go from Bar to Bar, or room to Room hiding their true speed, faking physical impairments, constantly taking second or third money and openly bragging about how they are hiding their speed, and stealing second or third money.

Than you have to Bar, Room Owners, and Tour Director who for the life of things can not figure out why people are avoiding playing in their Room, Bar, or Tournament when there are like 13,000 Player listed in the AZ Rating Books.

But honestly how many times has one of these Bar, Room Owners, and Tour Director approached you personally and quested you personally why do come out and play.

I personally do not go to one room any longer as there are too many people out of control drunk, openly sharking, and just being --- -----, and the management does not care. Another Bar I avoid advertises added money, and then on Tournament Day the money was not added as promised. Than another Bar allow “friends”[ no matter what their rating is to play in their event, and shall we say take the money from the underlings. Then another Bar I use to like to play in weekly went under so it is no longer there.

Than you have the tournaments that start at 7:30 PM, and End after 1 AM and their are only 12 or 14 players, and you spend the night there for next to nothing after factoring in entree fee, quarters, gas, a few drink, and who need it?

My buddy live in Montana they just had an Annual Memorial Pool Tournament up near the Canadian Border, in the middle of Winter with 80 Men, and 23 Women showing up to play for two days. Montana uses no Rating System it is just Play Your Best or, be eliminated, stay & watch and learn, or go home.

The promised Added money was Added, Winners got Paid in CASH not Rubber a Checks, and everyone for the most part had fun.

JMHO.

 

[Roger Long]

Having had the time to read what I missed in this post since my last visit to AZB, IMHO the Arizona Rating System is in many way is responsible for the decline in people playing pool because of how the rating committee tries to tweak the system, again, and again.

Was it a year or so ago that the AZ Rating Committee decided to Lower everyone Rating Number so to bring players back to the Bars & Rooms to compete in tournament play, and that move appears to be a failure as player have not returned. One need only go to Metro Sport Bar to see the Nightly Tournament board is not full like it was.

The Rating System discriminates against a player who reach being a “9“ under the old ratings number, now an “8” under the new rating number as when you become the worst of the best, an old “9”, or new “8”, fewer nightly tournaments are available for you to play in. So why play better, as it will only penalize you, and limit your opportunities to play.

Than you have the sand baggers who go from Bar to Bar, or room to Room hiding their true speed, faking physical impairments, constantly taking second or third money and openly bragging about how they are hiding their speed, and stealing second or third money.

Than you have to Bar, Room Owners, and Tour Director who for the life of things can not figure out why people are avoiding playing in their Room, Bar, or Tournament when there are like 13,000 Player listed in the AZ Rating Books.

But honestly how many times has one of these Bar, Room Owners, and Tour Director approached you personally and quested you personally why do come out and play.

I personally do not go to one room any longer as there are too many people out of control drunk, openly sharking, and just being --- -----, and the management does not care. Another Bar I avoid advertises added money, and then on Tournament Day the money was not added as promised. Than another Bar allow “friends”[ no matter what their rating is to play in their event, and shall we say take the money from the underlings. Then another Bar I use to like to play in weekly went under so it is no longer there.

Than you have the tournaments that start at 7:30 PM, and End after 1 AM and their are only 12 or 14 players, and you spend the night there for next to nothing after factoring in entree fee, quarters, gas, a few drink, and who need it?

My buddy live in Montana they just had an Annual Memorial Pool Tournament up near the Canadian Border, in the middle of Winter with 80 Men, and 23 Women showing up to play for two days. Montana uses no Rating System it is just Play Your Best or, be eliminated, stay & watch and learn, or go home.

The promised Added money was Added, Winners got Paid in CASH not Rubber a Checks, and everyone for the most part had fun.

JMHO.

Bruce,

What would your suggestions be for solving all these problems?

Roger

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Bruce,

What would your suggestions be for solving all these problems?

Roger

Maybe you need to re read my post, figure it out for yourself, as more players out playing, might mean more business for your pro shop.

 

[Rick S.]

Bruce,

What would your suggestions be for solving all these problems?

Roger

Move to Montana, obviously.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Move to Montana, obviously.

Or maybe as I said the people who would profit from more players, like Bar & Room Owners, and Tour Directors should ask the players why they don't come out no more and play. Or don't play their events.

It is called market research, and involves getting out, and talking to people one on one.

Or the Bar & Room Owners, and Tour Directors could hire a professional market research firm....LOL:wink:

 

[Roger Long]

Maybe you need to re read my post, figure it out for yourself, as more players out playing, might mean more business for your pro shop.

To be honest with you Bruce, my pro shop is as busy as it can possibly be right now. Bull Shooters is loaded with pool players 7 days a week. It's great! The funny thing is, it's all leagues and casual players. They actually don't have the time or need to run weekly tournaments.

What I'm really trying to figure out is why you don't become a member of the ratings committee. You always have a lot of critical things to say about the way the committee, the TD's and the bar owners all handle the ratings, but you never offer to jump in and try to make things any better. Why is that?

Roger

 

[12310bch]

what the Cowboy neglects to mention is that ANY reason for a social gathering in Montana in the middle of the winter is a welcome break from the tedium of intemperate weather along the Canadian border.

I'll bet they could have a square dance and pot-luck( potlatch) and get that
many people.

Cowboy , your riding a one-trick pony. You don't play because you can't play but you blame it on the rating system. Make an effort to get involved with something other than your mouth.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

what the Cowboy neglects to mention is that ANY reason for a social gathering in Montana in the middle of the winter is a welcome break from the tedium of intemperate weather along the Canadian border.

Must have been showing or something in Bellflower CA, as 192 Player showed up for the Swanee. BTW maybe you should read the "THE BREAK" on line to see where pool is alive and well. Without any funky rating system.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

To be honest with you Bruce, my pro shop is as busy as it can possibly be right now. Bull Shooters is loaded with pool players 7 days a week. It's great! The funny thing is, it's all leagues and casual players. They actually don't have the time or need to run weekly tournaments.

That is so nice a busy Pool Room, full of leagues and casual players. I am sure the bar is busy also.

What I'm really trying to figure out is why you don't become a member of the ratings committee. You always have a lot of critical things to say about the way the committee, the TD's and the bar owners all handle the ratings, but you never offer to jump in and try to make things any better. Why is that?

Roger[/QUOTE]

I would attend only one meeting, make a motion to vote to disband the Rating Committee, and return to Open Play like when I lived in other places where open play works.

Also all the information I have to share is in post # 170. The Bar, Room Owners, and Tour Director got my input.

Now Roger what I'm really trying to figure out is, what is that Carved Walking Stick doing as your Aavatar?

 

[Roger Long]

I would attend only one meeting, make a motion to vote to disband the Rating Committee, and return to Open Play like when I lived in other places where open play works.

Also all the information I have to share is in post # 170. The Bar, Room Owners, and Tour Director got my input.

Now Roger what I'm really trying to figure out is, what is that Carved Walking Stick doing as your Aavatar?

As usual you're trying to change the subject and dodge the fact that you won't play anywhere, under any circumstances (because you don't know how), and yet, you want to be able to tell bar and pool room owners what kind of tournaments to hold; to tell tournament directors how to run those tournaments; and tell ratings reps how to rate the players. And even worse than not playing, is the fact that you won't even try to help support Arizona's tournaments in any way at all. You just sit back and criticize the efforts of everyone else.

What you call "input" isn't any input at all, Cowboy. You said nothing in post #170 that made a bit of sense (no surprise there). And you said nothing in the post I've quoted above that makes any sense, either. The only thing you are trying to do in this thread is the same thing that you have tried to do in Arizona for years: pit people against each other just to watch the sparks fly.

You're sick, Bruce (Cocobolo Cowboy) DeLis.

Roger Long