The Chinese are coming ...

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WilleeCue

WilleeCue

The Barefoot Cuemaker
Silver Member
Well I knew it was only a matter of time.

I was looking at some Chinese cues priced under $200 (some under $100) retail last night.
Good solid light colored maple shaft, quality ferrule, real linen wrap.
Good wood, excellent fit and workmanship, proper construction, and a nice finish.

I could not do the wrap, shaft, and finish for under $200 and make a profit let alone do the completed cue.
I could buy the whole cue wholesale, throw away the butt, sell the shaft for $100 and still make a profit.

The bottom to mid end of the cue market will soon be owned by the Chinese.
This is exactly where most cue makers are making their money ... $300 to $500 cues.
It will take a while for the pool playing public to wise up to the quality being offered and for the past stigma of "Made in China" to wear off.
But it will ... and the American cue makers will be dropping like flies.

Only the hobby and the super high end cue maker will survive the next 5 years.

Unless you are making $2000 and up level cues you should start considering another way to make a living.

Willee
 
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BLACKHEARTCUES said:
Mcdermott now has a cue line made there that sells, retail for $40. The quality is VERY good...JER
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Exactly ... how can the average American cue maker compete with that?

McDermott is seeing the writing on the wall that they can import quality cues a lot cheaper than they can make them.

Perhaps we can lobby congress like Harley Davidson did years ago and get a big excise tax slapped on the imported pool cues.

Looked at some new designs from Viking and loved their use of mirrored material in the inlays. Some very nice designs indeed!
 
JoeyInCali said:
There will be more money in repair.
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Joey, I think you are right about that.

But Corpus Christi is a small town and I doubt anyone could get by on just repairs here.
Perhaps in a large city like Chicago a guy would have a lot of repair and maintenance work.

What are your plans Joey?
Are you thinking about ever doing cue making and/or repair work full time or is it going to be a hobby?

Willee
 
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Actually, this has been the case for several years now.
It's easy for me to understand that with all the technology that has been exported to China that eventually the Chinese would start producing cues at exceptionally competitive prices and that the quality would steadily rise.

The Chinese have become masters at mass-production. The market is literally flooded with low-end import cues. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Entry level players are not likely to spend $1,000 on their first cue. The low-end cue makes it affordable for them to get into the game. If after a while, they decide that pool is not for them, then they aren't out much with regards to equipment. Most will sell their equipment to the next entry level league player that wants to try their hand at the game and the saga continues. On the other hand, if they start liking this pool thing, then maybe their second or third cue will be the $1,000 dream cue.
That's where we come in.

One thing about pool is that there is the element of constant improvement, both in the ability to play the game and the quality of the equipment that we/they play with. Ex: you may have started out with your dad's `53 Ford but I'll bet that it wasn't long before you had your eye on the `65 GTO. It's human nature.

I'm thoroughly convinced that the American Cue Maker will always have a niche' in other than the low-end cues. It's obvious that we just can't compete there; our cost of living and cost of life-style will no longer allow it. But again, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Import cues have actually elevated the status of the American CM. Unfortunately, that elevation comes with a cost. Many of today's budding CMs will go by the way-side, basically because there's just not that much room at the top. There currently are bunches & bunches of CMs in this country because as Americans, we have what is known as disposable income. That is a rarity anywhere else in the world.

Another aspect that I look upon positively is the maintenance & repair of the import cues. Someone's got to do it and it's not likely anyone will send their cue back to China for a tip/ferrule & re-wrap.

All is not doom & gloom. You just have to look for the silver-lining and play it to your advantage.
 
The market around here only seems to have 2 types, they either have a cheepo production or a Predator. There are very few custom or high end american cues up this way, not sure why but Predator seems to own the higher $ end of the market.
Repairs have been up and down for me, very slow summer. Should hopefully pick up in Sept. I often consider making the investment in more equipment and starting to build but I just don't see the market to sustain it.
 
I think Willee just woke up. Action cues has been around since 1997. David Forman was having cues made in Japan in 1968 and Helmstetter joined him in 69'. Cuetec has been around for years along with J&J, even offering high end name cues that were made out of the Taiwan or China. The Chinese had one factory 8 years ago with 1500 employees. That was about the time that Bill Stroud showed them how to make Lucasi cues. They were making about 10,000 cues a month. Now there are at least 3 factories in China with who knows what kind of output. They have run this the same way the Japanese brought Honda into America. Low end first. Look at a Lucasi or in that case a Predator these days. Can't cost them more than $40.00 to make any of them and they sell for hundreds. If people are dumb enough to buy foreign make cues (cause they look good, hit good and are cheap) than they cannot hardly be blamed. Not knowing where it came from and most of the time not caring they are just looking for a cue to play some pool with. Cuemakers will never be able to compete with them and should never try. Just make what you make the best you can and think about Stroud ( and the others responsible) sitting on top of his hill getting richer every time those shipping containers land on our shores.
 
ohhh...good tread

I am cuemaker, repairman, Marketing Manager and Economic graduate so I have a opinion abaut this thread very simple.

Your best bet should be a product of quality, China is manufactured very cheap cues and quality is poor, you should bet on the quality and not to descend the prices, will always have a niche. China cues arent cored, no dried woods, no good ferrules and butt caps......a pool player will buy your frist cue in china; it is possible but it isnt bad for you, you are in other category, you are cuemaker, "American cuemaker association" or "International cuemaker association" is is a "Brand" and mean that your cues are frist quality so pool players have a warranty that this product is the best in construction, quality and warranty.


Will be more difficulty work full-time in cuemaking, is possible that you should have other job but if you like it and you do all well you could pay your invoices¡¡

only surviving the best cuemakers, true¡¡¡ and cuemakers that can invest in quality and marketing," in the differentiation is success"

Example: I like cars, I have a cheap car but I would like have a Mercedes Benz but I dont have sufficient money for it but I know that when I have money I will buy a Mercedes because is the best and I like more.....
 
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bdcues said:
I think Willee just woke up. Action cues has been around since 1997. David Forman was having cues made in Japan in 1968 and Helmstetter joined him in 69'. Cuetec has been around for years along with J&J, even offering high end name cues that were made out of the Taiwan or China. The Chinese had one factory 8 years ago with 1500 employees. That was about the time that Bill Stroud showed them how to make Lucasi cues. They were making about 10,000 cues a month. Now there are at least 3 factories in China with who knows what kind of output. They have run this the same way the Japanese brought Honda into America. Low end first. Look at a Lucasi or in that case a Predator these days. Can't cost them more than $40.00 to make any of them and they sell for hundreds. If people are dumb enough to buy foreign make cues (cause they look good, hit good and are cheap) than they cannot hardly be blamed. Not knowing where it came from and most of the time not caring they are just looking for a cue to play some pool with. Cuemakers will never be able to compete with them and should never try. Just make what you make the best you can and think about Stroud ( and the others responsible) sitting on top of his hill getting richer every time those shipping containers land on our shores.
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I agree 100%.

One of the problems is that most of the general public doesn't even know the cues are made in China or some other Third World Country. It's not like a Honda or Toyota; these cues use English names which is misleading, in my opinion. I have also seen the labels removed from some of these cues in a display case.

Another problem is that some Americans would rather repair a foreign made cue then try to make a living building cues. They hurt the American Cuemaker too by fixing up the junk made in China.

It ain't gonna change; there will always be someone ready to make a few bucks today rather than look at the long run.

Proud to be an American Cuemaker and not an American Cue Repair Guy.

Arnot
 
Hopefully the cues will start smelling like farts...like the drywall they sent over. No one will want them.
 
Thinning of the Heard

Hi,

Some interesting thoughts about China. I agree that it's here and coming faster and you can't stop it. However, I also believe that the American Cue Makers who make the best cues will survive. Two things that are for certain, more people will be getting out of the biz hear in the US. and people will not pay big money for a China Cue in our lifetimes. If you are making cues that only sell at commodity prices, China is a steamroller coming your way.

Like driving a Lexus or a Mercedes, owning a high end cue is a status thing or a pride of ownership item. You don't need a Gina Cue or a Joel Herscek cue, you want one. If you don't strive for that kind of status, then China will get you.

Another thing that I think will happen is that other Cue Makers who have a big name reputations will be scrutinized for the work they are putting out. Without naming names I have observed a decline in quality of some of the work of a few of these big name cue makers. Cue Makers who sit on their laurels and rely on their name only will see their market share decline because to succeed in the new economy you will need to prove it one cue at a time.

A big name maker with a waiting list is putting out what I consider some mediocre cues and many of them become slightly warped in the butt. When you call them and ask them about this problem, they tell you it's wood and they can't control what happens to it after it leaves. Pleeese!!!

I own a large pool hall and have heard this story over and over. When I look at a cue that someone is asking over $ 1,800.00 for, the first thing I look at is the construction and the artistic effort, materials and the precision work put in the cue. Then I look at the finish and inspect the rings and joining interfaces for movement or shrinkage. The last thing I do is hit a ball with it.

It is amazing to me how many so called top cue makers can not flat sand a cue properly and put an average finish on their cue. Gosh, all you have to do is hold it up to the light and sight down the butt.

Once the average ball knocker falls in love with a cue, most are going to buy it on looks alone ( new car smell with money burning a hole in one's pocket ). A cue is an impulse buy in many cases.

Unless it has a buzz or is warped, their pride in ownership will convince their brain that they just bought the best hitting cue in the world. This is a Machiavellian concept of "Perception is Reality" and is what makes the world go around.

An A player or a pro will hit with the cue, then scan it's construction and overall appearance. To them a cue is a tool for them to demonstrate their hard earned stroke. If the cue responds to their liking they will give it a good report.

So in a complex changing market the best of the best will do good because they will be making cues that not only play very good but show their skills as artists, craftsmen, and professionals. To survive in this market economy you must do it all with panache.

In the final analysis, if you have a passion for what you do and strive for your best performance in all areas of the endeavor, you will prevail if you don't quit. When you quit you are the loser or have capitulated to cutting your loses.

To beat China you have to compete in the proprietary not the commodity market. You must be compensated for your time and work effort and must be paid accordingly with a profit margin. If you don't think you can't sell a cue for $ 2000.00 plus. You never will. If you believe with objectivity that your product is competitive with the best of the best, then over time it will be apparent to the rest of the world and they will beat a path to your door. Let China be China, don't play their game.

Rick Geschrey
 
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WilleeCue said:
Well I knew it was only a matter of time.

I was looking at some Chinese cues priced under $200 (some under $100) retail last night.
Good solid light colored maple shaft, quality ferrule, real linen wrap.
Good wood, excellent fit and workmanship, proper construction, and a nice finish.

I could not do the wrap, shaft, and finish for under $200 and make a profit let alone do the completed cue.
I could buy the whole cue wholesale, throw away the butt, sell the shaft for $100 and still make a profit.

The bottom to mid end of the cue market will soon be owned by the Chinese.
This is exactly where most cue makers are making their money ... $300 to $500 cues.
It will take a while for the pool playing public to wise up to the quality being offered and for the past stigma of "Made in China" to wear off.
But it will ... and the American cue makers will be dropping like flies.

Only the hobby and the super high end cue maker will survive the next 5 years.

Unless you are making $2000 and up level cues you should start considering another way to make a living.

Willee
Click to expand...
Without seeing the cues you are referring to personally, I have a feeling you are giving them more respect then they deserve. A while back a friend called me and wanted to know if I could change the color of a butt cap to a black one. No problem so he came over. He told me he had picked up a $400.00 cue for $80.00, he had stolen it he said. He shows up and the cue looks pretty good.

Then I started looking at it. He also wanted a new tip so I cut off the tip and the ferrule had a spline in it. It was not even glued on but pressed on. A closer examination of the cue showed the points were in fact a graphic. It was amazing it was so well done you could not tell without putting it under a magnifier. All the inlays were decals and what looked like an ebony butt sleeve was paint. After removing the butt cap you could see the cheap wood it was really made of.

All this took place with the owner standing there. This cue was not only not a $400.00 cue but not worth close to the $80.00 he had paid. After seeing this we just put the butt cap back on a new tip and he said he would give it to his kid to play with. He felt like a fool, the cue was junk plain and simple and it didn't take much to expose it. I just don't think the buyers of custom cues are the buyers of these cheap cues or your actual customers. If anything the buyers will at some point want to move up to a real cue and become a customer of a more high end cue. There will always be junk out there that passes for something more then what it is, just look at some of the tools at places like Harbor freight. There also will always be a market for quality. The fact is most pool players are not in the market for an expensive cue no matter what. They just want something to play with a few nights a week. That is fine, they are not your customers anyway, not yet. But they may get hooked on the game and will be in the future. There always has to be an entry level in everything.
 
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Your best bet should be a product of quality, China is manufactured very cheap cues and quality is poor, you should bet on the quality and not to descend the prices, will always have a niche. China cues arent cored, no dried woods, no good ferrules and butt caps.

You obviously have not seen these new cues from Mcdermott. I have one here, that sells retail for $130. It has decals, but only a cuemaker can tell. This cue looks & plays as good as any American production cue. The finish ,ferrule material & design is really competative...JER
 
Import Cues

If all the cue makers in the US refuse to work on them people will think twice about buying them.I will not even put a tip on a chinese cue i tell the customer to send it back to the manufacture for repair. If we all stand together on this we will win in the long run.
 
China cues

Back in early 70"s Toyotas started showing on american soil. Everyone laughed and called them rice burners. Look at Nissan, Honda and Toyota today. The american car manufactures could have kept pace but chose to build gas guzzlers. The union would not accept concessions and U.S. cars could not keep pace with foreign car competition. Luckily todays cuemakers do not have a union. It will take some time before the asian market will make a cue to custom cm standards. I do feel the overseas cues will erode into our market and that slowly their cuemaking skills will rise up in quality. What a dilemma. Do I go after a Szamboti or should I stive for the newer Chenboti. The day is coming we will be importing almost everything but food. My 2 cents
 
I was wondering how many cue makers own chinese lathes no matter what brand they come under?. Of course, we all know those that make the special American cue lathes, and how well they work.

My point is that the Chinese will hit all parts of a particular market, and if they don't, some smart American will bring them into the semi-high end. Heck, they'll make the parts and assemble here. Anyway, that's my two cents.

Mario
 
macguy said:
Without seeing the cues you are referring to personally, I have a feeling you are giving them more respect then they deserve. A while back a friend called me and wanted to know if I could change the color of a butt cap to a black one. No problem so he came over. He told me he had picked up a $400.00 cue for $80.00, he had stolen it he said. He shows up and the cue looks pretty good.

Then I started looking at it. He also wanted a new tip so I cut off the tip and the ferrule had a spline in it. It was not even glued on but pressed on. A closer examination of the cue showed the points were in fact a graphic. It was amazing it was so well done you could not tell without putting it under a magnifier. All the inlays were decals and what looked like an ebony butt sleeve was paint. After removing the butt cap you could see the cheap wood it was really made of.

All this took place with the owner standing there. This cue was not only not a $400.00 cue but not worth close to the $80.00 he had paid. After seeing this we just put the butt cap back on a new tip and he said he would give it to his kid to play with. He felt like a fool, the cue was junk plain and simple and it didn't take much to expose it. I just don't think the buyers of custom cues are the buyers of these cheap cues or your actual customers. If anything the buyers will at some point want to move up to a real cue and become a customer of a more high end cue. There will always be junk out there that passes for something more then what it is, just look at some of the tools at places like Harbor freight. There also will always be a market for quality. The fact is most pool players are not in the market for an expensive cue no matter what. They just want something to play with a few nights a week. That is fine, they are not your customers anyway, not yet. But they may get hooked on the game and will be in the future. There always has to be an entry level in everything.
Click to expand...

Exactly. You don't know what glue/epoxy they used. How the fit was on those parts before they were glued.
Those shafts might look white and clean, but am betting they did not season for 4-5 years like we do them. I'm pretty sure they don't get to be exposed to dry heatwave before they are even turned.
Sure, repairing them might be helping them. But, that educates one pool player at a time.
Sadly, most have no clue how cues are made.
 
hotrod said:
Back in early 70"s Toyotas started showing on american soil. Everyone laughed and called them rice burners. Look at Nissan, Honda and Toyota today. The american car manufactures could have kept pace but chose to build gas guzzlers. The union would not accept concessions and U.S. cars could not keep pace with foreign car competition. Luckily todays cuemakers do not have a union. It will take some time before the asian market will make a cue to custom cm standards. I do feel the overseas cues will erode into our market and that slowly their cuemaking skills will rise up in quality. What a dilemma. Do I go after a Szamboti or should I stive for the newer Chenboti. The day is coming we will be importing almost everything but food. My 2 cents
Click to expand...

Maybe but anything CUSTOM-made and of great quality in the US will have a market. Knives, guns, boots, furniture, bikes and so on.
 
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