The Chinese are coming ...

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This will be my last post to this thread, people properly evaluate things for yourselves. When you purchase a cue and no warranty is offered that simply means that unless the seller has a different policy you can not return it for any reason if you have problems with it. Companies especially companies that Import Billiards cues and other related items in most cases offer no warranty because they are having the product built outside the USA.


OTHER THAN A WARRANTY HOW SHOULD THEY EVALUATE THE CUE! PLEASE LIST SOME CRITERIA.


I do not have to make multiple posts with a number of paragraphs to clearly attempt to cloud the issue at hand like others who have a financial stake in the issue.

THEN WHY DID YOU DO JUST THAT? YOU SELL THE BRANDS WHICH YOU DECLARE AS 'THE BEST'.[/


Further more I have no personal stake in this, I do not represent or receive payment from any company to support a specific product unlike others currently involved in this thread

YOU DO NOT MAKE MONEY OFF THE BRANDS YOU SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED?

The comments I have made throughout this thread are strictly based upon a large volume of repairs I complete on import cues, and they are not based upon personal profit. [/QUOTE]

WHAT IS A LARGE VOLUME? BRANDS? PROBLEMS? AMOUNT? HISTORY OF THE CUE? AND AGAIN YOU SELL THE BRANDS YOU CLAIM ARE THE BEST.


I am only providing information that may be useful to some who are considering a purchase of an import cue.

THAT IS SLANTED TOWARDS THE BRANDS YOU SELL. INFORMATION THAT IS ALSO NOT ACCURATE AND MISLEADING.


Like I have said before, I would not consider buying an import without a warranty, especially when you can buy another import or an American made product in your price range with a warranty for the same money. Do the research yourself and make your own conclusion concerning this.

IS EXACTLY WHAT THOSE WHO USE THE LIFETIME WARRANTY WANT YOU TO THINK - AND OF COURSE YOURS IS A CONVENIENT OPINION TO HOLD SINCE YOU SELL THE VERY BRANDS THAT OFFER THESE WARRANTIES. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN ALL COMPANIES OFFER "WARRANTIES"???

If some one attempts to tell you that a warranty doesn't really make a difference ask them why.

NO ONE SAID A WARRANTY DOES NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE. OF COURSE A STATED PROMISE TO DO SOMETHING THAT A COMPANY ALREADY DOES IS MORE PERSUASIVE THAN NOT HAVING IT.

Do not fall for this, this is a very important point and it comes down to a very simple answer. The Companys having the products made abroad do not have faith in the quality of their products plain and simple. These companies know what quality standard their products are suppose to be made too, because they outline with the production facility what level of quailty will be used.

AND YOU KNOW THIS HOW? SHOW US A PURCHASE ORDER FROM ANY IMPORT COMPANY THAT YOU CLAIM HS NO FAITH IN THEIR PRODUCTS ALONGSIDE ONE THAT YOU CLAIM DOES. YOU CANNOT PRODUCE THOSE DOCUMENTS BECAUSE YOU DO NOT HAVE ANY ACCESS TO THEM. YOU ARE MAKING CLAIMS THAT YOU CANNOT BACK UP.

By not offering a warranty on their products these companies speak volumes about the quality of what they are selling.

AND AGAIN I ASK THE QUESTION OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SUDDENLY ALL COMPANIES OFFER WARANTIES? WOULD THAT ALSO SPEAK VOLUMES? YOU SHOULD REALLY LEARN A LITTLE ABOUT MARKETING IF YOU ARE FOOLED THIS EASILY BY "WARRANTIES".

I WIN THE WAR OF THE GIANT FONTS AS YOU CAN'T GET BIGGER THAN 7.

ARE MY POINTS MORE VALID BECAUSE I SHOUT AND WRITE THEM IN GIANT FONTS?
 
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Warranties dissected:

Lucasi: Taken from this page -

http://www.michaeljscues.com/lucasi_lady_cues.htm

Lucasi cues are warranteed to be free from all material and manufacturing defects for the lifetime of the cue. Cue & Case Sales, Inc. warrants all components of your Lucasi cue, including warpage. Normal wear on replaceable parts such as the tip, ferrule, bumper, wrap and finish are excluded from Lucasi's Limited Lifetime Warranty. This warranty is void if your Lucasi cue has been subjected to mishandling, abuse, misuse, repair by anyone other than Cue & Case Sales, Inc. or has had new or additional aftermarket parts added to the cue.

Lucasi's Limited Lifetime Warranty applies only to Lucasi cues purchased from an authorized Lucasi dealer after July 1, 2007. To submit your cue for a warranty claim you must submit either a copy of the original sales receipt from an authorized Lucasi dealer or your authorized RMA number from Cue & Case Sales, Inc. This warranty applies only to Lucasi cues belonging to the original owner and is non-transferable. Lucasi cues covered by this warranty will be repaired or replaced with the same cue model or one of equal value at no charge. All claims will be resolved at the sole discretion of Cue & Case Sales, Inc.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

So the biggest thing here is warpage and they have already figured out what their rate of returns are for warpage. Also they can disclaim warranty protection if they feel a cue has been mishandled such as leaving it in a car trunk. And don't think about getting a new ferrule on your Lucasi or having it repaired by someone like Craig Rittel or the warranty is toast.

Moving on:

Here is McDermott's warranty - taken from this site http://www.mcdermottcue.com/XWarranty.asp

Lifetime Warranty against warpage and defects
The only warranty in the business to cover warpage (not true)
McDermott Handcrafted Cues warrants its pool cues purchased from an authorized McDermott Cue retailer or distributor to be free of defects in material and workmanship, including warpage, for the lifetime of the product. McDermott will, without charge to the consumer, repair or replace your cue, provided that the claim is accompanied by a copy of the original sales receipt from an authorized McDermott dealer. McDermott does not warrant its product against damage caused by third parties. This warranty does not cover replaceable items such as tip, finish, and wrap. McDermott will fix such items, however, for a fee. In addition, McDermott, at its sole discretion, may void this warranty if there is evidence of abuse or mishandling.

So as you can see both of these warranties are vague and leave the door WIDE OPEN to wiggle out of honoring any claim. Although they probably will honor 99% of the claims that come in because it's just smart business to do so.

Craig Rittel claims that both of these companies have the best import cues in the business based SOLELY on the fact that they offer these warranties.

Does anyone else think that being warrantied means that the cue is the best?

By Craig's LOGIC McDermott is then the best USA made cue and ALL OTHER cue maker's cues which do not offer such a stated warranty are inferior products.

Cue makers? Do you agree with Craig Rittel?

Craig Rittel do you offer a money back guarantee on the experience a person has in your establishment? If not why not?
 
So if i understand the Lucasi warranty as posted here, if i change the leather wrap to Linen i void the warranty?:confused:
I played 6 hours of pool this weekend and my Lucasi still looks the same.
I did notice one flaw,it did miss a ball once in awhile.
The only thing differant about playing with a Chinese made cue is an hour later i want to play again.
 
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Oh and by the way, companies such as Sterling Billiards that are repesented on this forum by John Barton / JB Cases also do not offer a warranty. Mr. Barton becomes very excited when talk of a warranty comes up concerning the subject of Chinese Import Cues. John is a Sterling Billiards Quality control problem solver in China, so if anyone has any questions about why Sterling Billiards dosen't offer a warranty contact Mr. Barton I am certain he can School you. John has a vast knowledge of everything from shoe laces to pool cues and he will be glad to tell you so, if you need help contact John he will give the unbiased information you can count on!!!!!!!!!!!!;);):wink::thumbup:

Do you sell the cue brands that you tout as 'the best quality because they offer warranties'? If you do then your "information" and advice is hardly unbiased.

Why don't you ever answer a direct question?

You have avoided this question three times so I will ask it AGAIN. If Sterling Gaming SUDDENLY offered a warranty which was the same or better than those offered by other companies then would that make the cues sold by Sterling Gaming as good or better than the cues offered by the other companies?

Answer that direct question please.
 
John, I think Craig already said that was his last post.
I don't think screaming to the top of your lungs is gonna get him back.


Mods, can we just lock up this thread now?
I really hate to see it on top of this section already.
 
John, I think Craig already said that was his last post.
I don't think screaming to the top of your lungs is gonna get him back.


Mods, can we just lock up this thread now?
I really hate to see it on top of this section already.

Ditto- this is ugly.
 
John, I think Craig already said that was his last post.
I don't think screaming to the top of your lungs is gonna get him back.


Mods, can we just lock up this thread now?
I really hate to see it on top of this section already.



John, I think Craig already said that was his last post.
I don't think screaming to the top of your lungs is gonna get him back


Thanks Joey, I know I said that I would not post again, but this is the funniest shit I have ever read on this forum, sincerely thanks for the laugh Joey!!!!!!:grin-devilish::rotflmao1::lmao: and now I am truly :outtahere:
 
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Catch up with the times

John, I think Craig already said that was his last post.
I don't think screaming to the top of your lungs is gonna get him back.


Mods, can we just lock up this thread now?
I really hate to see it on top of this section already.
Manwon the reason that the majority of repairs you do are on imported cues is because that is what the majority of pool playing Americans are using.:p
Wake up and smell the roses!

John your wife is calling. :D Remember you promised her to limit your posting time. :cool:
I hope both of you give it a rest. PLEASE
I can't believe this all started because I sold Willee a cue that was nicer than what he expected.:D
 
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John, I think Craig already said that was his last post.
I don't think screaming to the top of your lungs is gonna get him back.


Mods, can we just lock up this thread now?
I really hate to see it on top of this section already.

I am all for that. It's not about getting him to come back. Even if he does it will just be more of the same inaccurate and uninformed fear-mongering that he does, coupled with flawed logic.

The only reason I did the stupid big red fonts is because that is how he tries to get attention and we can all see how stupid this is.

If he did come back then I would ask him to try to respond to direct questions.

1. Do you sell the cues you promote as being the best?
2. Do you have any direct information about what importers specify to suppliers regarding the cues they order?
3. Have you ever been to Kao Kao or Tai Can the two largest Chinese manufacturers of cues?
4. Are you an engineer?
5. Have you ever dissected the pool cues from all price levels and from all manufacturers to compare the construction techniques? If so then where is the proof and data?
6. What is "Thermostatic Adhesive"? Can you point to a link that explains it to all of us? (for everyone else, I think it does not exist and welcome correction on this).
7. If other companies begin offering warranties on their cues does this mean that the quality of their cues will become better instantly?

I would like simple and concise answers to these 7 questions since Craig Rittel has promoted himself as an expert and has made claims that I find to be untrue, uninformed, and borderline malicious. If he is an expert then he should be able to answer these questions in a way that leaves no doubt for the readers as to his expertise in the billiard industry and the construction of pool cues, as well as international business and marketing.

I have asked these questions repeatedly and each time Mr. Rittel dodges them and further clouds the discussion with more rhetoric.

My conclusion is that if Mr. Rittel cannot or will not answer these simple questions then he is to be presumed to be a fraud and anything that he says is to be disregarded as not having any expertise behind it.
 
Manwon the reason that the majority of repairs you do are on imported cues is because that is what the majority of pool playing Americans are using.:p
Wake up and smell the roses!

John your wife is calling. :D Remember you promised her to limit your posting time. :cool:
I hope both of you give it a rest. PLEASE
I can't believe this all started because I sold Willee a cue that was nicer than what he expected.:D

Manwon the reason that the majority of repairs you do are on imported cues is because that is what the majority of pool playing Americans are using.:

Please at least be accurate, I never used the word Majority that is something you inserted to stir the pot!!!!!!!:D However, there are a very large number of import cues for sale and being used in this country, especially the lower end ones.

Wake up and smell the roses!

Again, please at least quote me accurately, I never said I hate import cues and that they are the end of the world for America. They make me money, because of the repair work, hell they even make me money when they can't be repaired because then they will purchase another cue. My only comments were that if you buy an import cue at least buy one with a warranty, especially since you can buy one for basically the same price!!!!;):D

I mean you do agree don't you, oh that's right the Palmer's imports your selling don't have a warranty either do they!!!!!:thumbup:

Have a great night:smile:
 
Manwon the reason that the majority of repairs you do are on imported cues is because that is what the majority of pool playing Americans are using.:

Please at least be accurate, I never used the word Majority that is something you inserted to stir the pot!!!!!!!:D However, there are a very large number of import cues for sale and being used in this country, especially the lower end ones.

Wake up and smell the roses!

Again, please at least quote me accurately, I never said I hate import cues and that they are the end of the world for America. They make me money, because of the repair work, hell they even make me money when they can't be repaired because then they will purchase another cue. My only comments were that if you buy an import cue at least buy one with a warranty, especially since you can buy one for basically the same price!!!!;):D

I mean you do agree don't you, oh that's right the Palmer's imports your selling don't have a warranty either do they!!!!!:thumbup:

Have a great night:smile:

You have the balls to ask someone else to be accurate? That's funny.

You said earlier, "The comments I have made throughout this thread are strictly based upon a large volume of repairs I complete on import cues, and they are not based upon personal profit."

I took the implication from this that most of your repairs were on imports. Are you now saying that most of your repairs are on domestically produced cues? Not that I expect an answer but I am curious to know how many cues you repair per year and what the brands are and the types of repairs you do? And it would be nice if you filled us in on the history of these cues so that we can know how they got to be in the condition they are in when they end up in your shop? You do know the details, age, type of storage, frequency of use, and care of each cue that you repair don't you?

You are such an expert that surely you keep this data handy to show proof of your assertions don't you?
 
Epic thread.
Some great food for thought here.
Maybe it will help some people will shake off some of the stupid ideas they seem to cling to so vehemently these days.
 
If you want to pick words

Manwon the reason that the majority of repairs you do are on imported cues is because that is what the majority of pool playing Americans are using.:

Please at least be accurate, I never used the word Majority that is something you inserted to stir the pot!!!!!!!:D However, there are a very large number of import cues for sale and being used in this country, especially the lower end ones.

Wake up and smell the roses!

Again, please at least quote me accurately, I never said I hate import cues and that they are the end of the world for America. They make me money, because of the repair work, hell they even make me money when they can't be repaired because then they will purchase another cue. My only comments were that if you buy an import cue at least buy one with a warranty, especially since you can buy one for basically the same price!!!!;):D

I mean you do agree don't you, oh that's right the Palmer's imports your selling don't have a warranty either do they!!!!!:thumbup:

Have a great night:smile:
So be it change the first majority to"so many"
There is no pot being stirred here except by you.This time and most time when there is mention of import cues.
I did not see anywhere that I quoted that you said you hate imported cues.:confused::confused:

Nope I do not agree. The extra cost that the importers charge for a escape clause ridden warantee is definately not worth the extra that they charge for basically the same cue.

I have sold Kao Kao cues for many years. Lack of warrantee has never been an issue.
What about the JJ and Imperials you sell?? Do they have a warantee?:confused:
 
As an aside from all the bickering and name calling on here might I suggest that everyone who can watch the dvd "Tibet: Cry of the Snow Lion"
John, you might not be able to see this unless you have it smuggled into China. But if you get to see it somehow you might see where those tax dollars your paying the Communist Government are going.
Somehow, the point is not that the quality is getting better on their items. It is the fact that human rights are being trampled on with funding from us.
That dam that you said would light millions of homes and only impacted a few construction projects here also will cover more than 1100 Buddhist monastaries. But that is ok since the communist government has already stripped them bare for bullion and bullets. It also stopped construction in many countries around the world and raised the cost of copper to an all time high due to Chinese demand for wire to spread all that new electricity to the masses.
And now, back to the name calling and bickering. :)
As for you denouncing Craig as a fraud unless he answers your questions - who are you? Who made you judge, jury and executioner?
Get off your high horse. Everyone here is intittled to their opinion and has the right to state it. And everyone has the right to believe or disbelieve what someone else states. As many have said, there have been some good point made here on both sides so give it a rest because if you think you are doing yourself any justice in acting like ......... (put your own words in here) than you are sadly mistaken and you are looking more like the fraud instead of Craig.
 
So be it change the first majority to"so many"
There is no pot being stirred here except by you.This time and most time when there is mention of import cues.
I did not see anywhere that I quoted that you said you hate imported cues.:confused::confused:

Nope I do not agree. The extra cost that the importers charge for a escape clause ridden warantee is definately not worth the extra that they charge for basically the same cue.

I have sold Kao Kao cues for many years. Lack of warrantee has never been an issue.
What about the JJ and Imperials you sell?? Do they have a warantee?:confused:

All the little smiles in your previous post where you mentioned me disappeared!!!:confused:;)
 
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My only comments were that if you buy an import cue at least buy one with a warranty, especially since you can buy one for basically the same price!!!!;):D



If those were your only comments then we wouldn't have a problem. Unfortunately you made a lot of other comments that are untrue, ignorant, and willfully malicious.

The fact is that you a small time repair person and small time cue maker with little to no understanding and certainly no true knowledge of the larger billiards industry.

You make statements as if they are fact when they are not.
You make statements as if you know the inside story when you do not.
You contradict yourself repeatedly.

You avoid direct question which challenge your assertions.
You practice misdirection in every post.

To me you are attempting to dupe this forum into thinking that you are an expert on cue construction and that you are an expert on the billiard industry and that you are an expert in marketing.

If I am wrong please list your qualifications for all of us to see. Please list your data to back up your claims about cue construction.

My qualifications for challenging your claims are 20 years in the business with experience doing limited cue repair, (tips, ferrules and wraps), 20 years of experience selling cues around the world from low to high end. 3 years of experience working in the Chinese cue factory. 20 years of experience doing marketing around the world. 15 years of direct customer contact with thousands and thousands of consumers and hundreds of dealers. Several large deal's worth of experience buying large amounts of ivory slabs for inlays, containers of butt and shaft round stock, thousands of pounds of Irish Linen from Ireland and even one deal where I was the middleman for two containers of Master chalk. In addition I have spent countless hours in the shops of many cue makers discussing the craft in detail as a result of my Instroke cue case business and the fact that I traded a lot of cases for a lot of cues.

So I have the resume to be able to discuss this topic in detail Craig based on extensive experience with the subject regardless of who I currently work for and whether we offer a written warranty or not.

What is your resume in the billiard industry? Tell us what you have done that allows you make outlandish claims and expect that no one challenges them?

I have always answered every question you have ever posed to me. You have not and cannot do the same for the ones I pose to you.

To me this means you are a fraud. Feel free to disprove me.
 
As an aside from all the bickering and name calling on here might I suggest that everyone who can watch the dvd "Tibet: Cry of the Snow Lion"
John, you might not be able to see this unless you have it smuggled into China. But if you get to see it somehow you might see where those tax dollars your paying the Communist Government are going.
Somehow, the point is not that the quality is getting better on their items. It is the fact that human rights are being trampled on with funding from us.
That dam that you said would light millions of homes and only impacted a few construction projects here also will cover more than 1100 Buddhist monastaries. But that is ok since the communist government has already stripped them bare for bullion and bullets. It also stopped construction in many countries around the world and raised the cost of copper to an all time high due to Chinese demand for wire to spread all that new electricity to the masses.
And now, back to the name calling and bickering. :)
As for you denouncing Craig as a fraud unless he answers your questions - who are you? Who made you judge, jury and executioner?
Get off your high horse. Everyone here is intittled to their opinion and has the right to state it. And everyone has the right to believe or disbelieve what someone else states. As many have said, there have been some good point made here on both sides so give it a rest because if you think you are doing yourself any justice in acting like ......... (put your own words in here) than you are sadly mistaken and you are looking more like the fraud instead of Craig.

No Bob. Everyone knows that China has a lot of issues. Do you think that the government in China will stop abusing people if no money comes into the country? What do you think that they did for the first 40 years of Communist rule? Ask my wife's mother if she thinks that the last 20 years are thousands of times better than the previous 40 before that.

The fact that China has opened up through the introduction of capitalism has allowed it to also be scrutinized far more and led to a lot more change. Is it enough? No and it may never be but if you take away foreign investment then you automatically condemn hundreds of millions to a life of abject poverty in addition to more oppression. Is that what you think should happen?

In America my tax dollars went to fund the deaths of some 100,000 or so innocent Iraqi people when our military carried out thousands of bombing attacks that were targeting houses and towns where insurgents were suspected of hiding. No matter the collateral death.

I can and will denounce Craig as a fraud when he makes statements that he won't back up.

He doesn't preface those statements with "in my opinion". He states them as if they are fact.

Here is one for you as an example of the type of statements Craig makes with no basis in fact, you're a cue maker so tell me what you think of this statement, paraphrased, 'the import cues use non-thermostatic adhesives that will break down with prolonged exposure to 80 degree temperatures.'

Tell us if there is such a thing as magic thermostatic glue that you use?

I mean if I came on here and made some outlandish statements concerning leather that would lead people to believe that Justis and Whitten's cases were inferior in this aspect then I would expect either one of them to correct me quickly and cite their sources.

I went looking for thermostatic glue and couldn't find any reference to it anywhere on the net.

Now, I think Craig probably means to say that the Chinese don't use glue that is as resistant to higher temperatures as the American cue makers use. In this regard he cannot possibly know that without comprehensive testing, even if true in some cases he cannot know whether it's true in all cases, and he cannot say for a fact that it is the case right now.

As for the 80 degree comment I think that you will agree that even Elmer's white craft glue will withstand prolonged exposure to 80 degrees.

So it's this sort of thing among many others which shows me that Craig Rittel is talking out of his ass and that he will say anything in order to avoid having to admit his ignorance of a subject.

So what do you call a person who spouts opinions as if they are fact with the seeming intention to appear to be an expert?

I call them a fraud. I will be more than happy to retract my statements to that effect if Craig Rittel can convince me of his expertise or if he will go back and edit his posts to say that HE DOES NOT KNOW BUT IT HIS OPINION THAT..... if he does this then I have no problem.

Sorry if the facts offend you. As they say the truth is uncomfortable. This is a public forum with a lot of readers who don't participate in the discussion. I will not allow someone like Craig to pose as an expert when he makes statements that he cannot support.
 
This thread has turned into another pissing contest where some people think they can be disrespectfully and foolish in an attempt to bait some one in an argument. None of my posts to this thread have been vindictive, and I have not said anything others have said in previous posts in this thread. I have the right to an opinion based upon my experience and involvement in Cue repair, and retail sales of Billiards cues both Custom and production.

Some think that unless what is said is approved by them that others have no right to speak their opinion publicly on an INTERNET forum. Well, this is not a communist country, this is America and whether we as forum members agree or not people here are free to make their own choices. Now I am certain this is galling to some, but most understand this is the American way.:smile:

I hope people read this thread, and form their own opinion from all the posts here, even the posts I would and do completely disagree with, have merit and both sides of any issue are needed to make informed decision.

There is a great deal of good information here, and some very important lessons in how not to try and prove your point.

Good Night
 
Ummm... I don't care much for whatever pissing match that might be taking place. But I'd like to remind some that even though this may be the internet. It is being viewed by the public WORLDWIDE !!

I happen to be one of those people (CDN born and raised) and I'm Chinese to boot!

On a side note, I've just recently returned from Asia. China included. And I have to say, it's really opened my eyes! I was entirely under the assumption that it was going to be crappy and dirty as heck. Things aren't what we heard/read/or been told/taught about anymore. If you're going to sit idle and waste your energies holding on to old beliefs, then I am sorry my friend. Like Bruce said, "Be like water".

OK, thread jacking done. =)

Just a friendly reminder for y'all to rep you, your people AND your country as best you can. Even if that means something as little as posting on the internet.

xJ

<--~~~ now $0.04 into this thread.

PS. Jack Justis has cases coming out of China that he has difficulty telling whether he made it or not. And Pred's pro player list is pretty long too.
 
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