The DEATH of DRILLS

[Neil]

The game can be broken down into four areas. 1. The stroke 2. Ball pocketing 3. Cue ball control. 4. Mental attitude

If you feel you are satisfied in any of those areas, then work on a different area. As far as what the pros work on, well, you don't play like they do, so you need to work on more areas than they do. As for me, I need work in all four areas, so I do things (drills) that target each area individually.

I'll also say this- just because a pro doesn't work on something is no reason for me not to work on it. Who knows how much better the pro would actually be if they did work on it? My game started to really improve when I stopped worrying about what someone better than me was and was not doing, quit using them for an easy excuse for me not to do something that wasn't particularly fun for me, but instead took an honest look at MY game, and worked on what I needed to work on. I learned to make it fun, not a chore. And I learned a whole lot in the process.

 

[BasementDweller]

The game can be broken down into four areas. 1. The stroke 2. Ball pocketing 3. Cue ball control. 4. Mental attitude

If you feel you are satisfied in any of those areas, then work on a different area. As far as what the pros work on, well, you don't play like they do, so you need to work on more areas than they do. As for me, I need work in all four areas, so I do things (drills) that target each area individually.

I'll also say this- just because a pro doesn't work on something is no reason for me not to work on it. Who knows how much better the pro would actually be if they did work on it? My game started to really improve when I stopped worrying about what someone better than me was and was not doing, quit using them for an easy excuse for me not to do something that wasn't particularly fun for me, but instead took an honest look at MY game, and worked on what I needed to work on. I learned to make it fun, not a chore. And I learned a whole lot in the process.

I'm exactly the opposite. For the past few years I've been paying close attention to what the pros say about the drills they do and have done in the past -- in an effort to actually dissect how exactly they got to where they are. I do not believe it is just a matter of natural talent. What I'm finding is the "drills" they do aren't the same "drills" that us amateurs are doing.

All drills are not created equal.

My whole point of posting this was just for people reconsider some of their practice habits. Don't just accept the status quo and complete odd drills just because so and so says they are worthwhile. They may not be.

 

[BasementDweller]

Geez, countless people improved their position play skills with Target Pool and I'm one of them.

Some good comments in this thread. What drills players do or need is a function of their skill level. Virtually all drills have value. Some drills focus on stroke alone, others on angle management alone, others on speed control alone, others on pocketing alone, others on position play alone, some on kicking alone, and yet others on the break alone. I wouldn't steer anyone away from any of these drills as a means of developing a facet of their game.

Sorry I've been backed into a corner many times on this subject so I tend to get a bit defensive but I still feel strongly about it.

I've paid attention to your posts on here so I know you are a smart cookie, so I'm a bit surprised you would say "Virtually all drills have value." That's the part that I don't think is accurate. It's my assertion that many players work on skills that can easily be mastered while playing the game and could better spend their practice time working on skills that aren't so easily mastered. This would make for a much quicker learning curve.

 

[BeiberLvr]

So your argument is, "Pro doesn't do Drill X. Therefore, Drill X is worthless."

Not very strong imo

 

[Neil]

I'm exactly the opposite. For the past few years I've been paying close attention to what the pros say about the drills they do and have done in the past -- in an effort to actually dissect how exactly they got to where they are. I do not believe it is just a matter of natural talent. What I'm finding is the "drills" they do aren't the same "drills" that us amateurs are doing.

All drills are not created equal.

My whole point of posting this was just for people reconsider some of their practice habits. Don't just accept the status quo and complete odd drills just because so and so says they are worthwhile. They may not be.

I don't believe it's natural talent either. It's hard work. They also have many bad habits that they have made work for THEM individually. They also spent many, many, many hours on the table to perfect what they do. I, most certainly not most of us, don't have that kind of time to spend on the table. So, I purposely do things that get the most bang for the buck with my time. That, for me, was first learning what I needed to do, then working on those areas.

That means not trying to stroke like they do, we are all different, and not many actually stroke very well at all. So, I first learned what constituted a good stroke, then learned the easiest way to get one, then worked on actually having one. ( still a work in progress) Same with pocketing, and same with cb control and mental work.

I firmly believe that there isn't a pro out there that can't play better than they have at their best. There isn't a single player that has reached their true actual peak.

And, as far as the actual drills go, what you get out of them is up to you. It all depends on just how you do them. Are you just doing them because you think it's the right thing to do? Are you satisfied when you get through the drill occasionally? Or do you break each aspect down, pay very close attention to exactly what you did, what happened, and learn actual principles in play doing the drills? Principles that then can transferred to actual play.

Believe it or not, when you break it down, EVERY drill where you shoot the cb to an ob and try and get a precise position, IS A STROKE DRILL. To obtain the same results everytime, you have to hit the cb precisely the same way every time. And, that is the area almost all fail in.

I feel that playing the ghost can be a drill also, when used properly. Most don't, and use it like "playing". I feel it should come AFTER doing specific area drills. To do only the ghost, or only playing, is putting the cart before the horse. It can work, but is not the best use of time. While it should be a part of "training", it should not be the only part of training.

 

[BasementDweller]

So your argument is, "Pro doesn't do Drill X. Therefore, Drill X is worthless."

Not very strong imo

No I think the logic goes more like this:

Many top players say they don't do drills
Other top players do do drills
Therefore, all dogs are cats.

Try to tell me that's not strong.

 

[duckie]

As mentioned earlier, it all depends on where you are in your development as a player.

As you develop, the drills need to become more challenging, meaning the drills need to be specific to a certain weakness you are trying to make a strength.

I seldom do the same drills I did first learning to play. What were weaknesses in the beginning are no longer, so the need to do those drills no longer exists. I now have weaknesses in just a few areas than when I first started so the drill needed have changed.

I practice 14.1 a lot and think of each shot as a drill in that I am trying to do something specific with the CB and OB. This way every aspect of what consist to execute a shot is practiced, stance, aiming, stroke and ball placement.

Drills help to knock the rust off also. When I was playing 9 ball, I was giving up BIH by being a weak kicker. The drill I started doing helped my kicking game to greatly improve to where my percentage of giving up BIH drop to almost zero.

In 14.1, there is not a great need to kick is in 9 ball and I did the kicking drill the other day and not to well, but as time went on in the practice session, the hit ratio improved.

The the need for drills does not ever end. It's just the needed drill changes. There are structured drills and free form drills. Think of structured drills as learning to throw a punch, kick properly and free form drills a sparring, putting the use of what is learned in structured drills being used in a unstructured enviroment.

 

[bmccaslin]

the L drill you described for example requires you to make 15 correct shots in a row
thats a level of consistency to strive for

I agree with this; in order to be able to complete these drills successfully, it requires very good cue ball control. The point of the drill is not - as the OP said - to be prepared for when you encounter the "L-Drill" in a live game. The point is to understand how hard to hit each shot and how to play position to the next ball.

So whether it's playing one rail or two rails to the next shot, or drawing the cue ball back 3 inches for the next shot, it's really all about getting familiar with common patterns that you will encounter very frequently during various games, and then building that recognition into both your mind and muscle memory so you can reliably call on those shots when you encounter them during games.

I think for some people, it's easier to re-enforce that knowledge about common patterns by doing drills, and others prefer to play live racks and learn that way. I believe that either way works, as long as you are completely focused on what you're trying to accomplish with each shot.

Interesting discussion though! :thumbup:

 

[allanpsand]

Drills have to be divided into several areas.

- Pocketing balls (usually from further and further away, or from sharper and sharper angles)

- Positioning CB (pocketing the OB and then getting the CB into position).

- Speed Control Drills are a minor variant.

- Playing Consistency (usually with multiple balls - including the infamous "L")

I've developed several hundred drills that concentrate on progressive exercises from the Drills & Exercises for Pool & Pocket Billiards book. I'm including some of those exercises on my Billiards Blog.

Another book that allows you to score your competence against yourself and others is the "Billiards Skills Competition Training Program". (If you want to challenge someone, check out the Challenge Shootouts on my Billiards Blog.

You can improve a lot faster with any drill or exercise - even if you only hit a handful of balls. Otherwise, you are only going to learn in real-time matches. This can be done - but it is costly.

 

[Pidge]

There are countless reasons certain pros don't do drills. Top of that list is that, well...they're pro. Simply staying in stroke by playing the ghost or what ever is enough to keep all their skill sets fresh in their memory.

This is an extremely broad statement but here goes...

In snooker, drills are common practice, especially when young players go to some kind of academy early on.

In pool, this kind of devoted practice isn't the norm. How many 16 and 17 year olds do you see coming through the ranks to compete against the best?

You see this kind of development in snooker with young guys making it into the World and British Championships each year. I strongly believe this is because of how their table time was spent in the early days. The drills they performed on a daily basis fast tracked their development IMO.

That being said...I dispise drills and avoid them at all costs

 

[Tronpocket]

I think so long as your trying to do something to improve your game with your time at the table, be it throw some balls out and run them to one pocket or rotation or whatever, to some extent even just playing all 15 balls off the table in no particular order is a drill.
How you choose to use your "practice" time is up to you, but if you want to improve .....you have to do it with a purpose or your just bang'n.
Im not a big "shot drill"guy, in fact the only drill ill do is all 15 balls on the rail around the table , gets my eyes lined up nicely. Mostly im the throw em out and do somthin kinda guy.
But ill also say those who say that shot drills wouldnt/didnt improve their game is wrong, never tried it, did the wrong drills, or their not doing it right.

 

[leto1776]

I can say the the time I made my most-and fastest--improvement earliert this year where I devoted one or two nights each week where I would spend a soild hour doing drills,(cut shot, side pocket, square in the corner, staright line stoke drill)before playing against myself (is that what's referred to as "playing the ghost?" don't know).Since then, I got a job that often prevents me from getting that good time in, and my game has plateaued. Is that the only reason I've stopped improving? No, but I feel it's the biggest.

In snooker, drills are common practice, especially when young players go to some kind of academy early on.

In pool, this kind of devoted practice isn't the norm. How many 16 and 17 year olds do you see coming through the ranks to compete against the best?

You see this kind of development in snooker with young guys making it into the World and British Championships each year. I strongly believe this is because of how their table time was spent in the early days. The drills they performed on a daily basis fast tracked their development IMO.

I bet consistent regimented practice is why so many young Chinese players are also debuting on the big stage.

 

[Pidge]

I can say the the time I made my most-and fastest--improvement earliert this year where I devoted one or two nights each week where I would spend a soild hour doing drills,(cut shot, side pocket, square in the corner, staright line stoke drill)before playing against myself (is that what's referred to as "playing the ghost?" don't know).Since then, I got a job that often prevents me from getting that good time in, and my game has plateaued. Is that the only reason I've stopped improving? No, but I feel it's the biggest.



I bet consistent regimented practice is why so many young Chinese players are also debuting on the big stage.

Absolutely agree about the Chinese players. Look at the Olympics. China is untouchable every 4 years because of how they go about it. Sure mass makes champions but they have structured 'schools' for sports of all kinds. When you have over a billion in your population and the facilities to progress those who show promise then its no suprise they dominate the Olympics.

I feel also that if table time limited then that limited time is best spent doing structured practice. For me, I'm past the stage of structured practice and have around 40+ hours table time a week to help me keep in stroke.

 

[Scott Lee]

Chris...I left the rest of your post out, because you are already so closed-minded that it's worthless to try and convince you of the value anyway. That said, the PURPOSE of a drill should be one of two things (can be both at the same time)...either you are correcting an error; or you are ingraining a good habit. Period. Whether you believe it or not, pro players are constantly working on their fundamentals, honing their strokes to be razor sharp. At their level they don't have to spend much time (a few minutes each day)...but they do them nonetheless.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

But before talking about the actual value of doing drills let’s clarify what a drill even is? .

 

[BasementDweller]

Chris...I left the rest of your post out, because you are already so closed-minded that it's worthless to try and convince you of the value anyway. That said, the PURPOSE of a drill should be one of two things (can be both at the same time)...either you are correcting an error; or you are ingraining a good habit. Period. Whether you believe it or not, pro players are constantly working on their fundamentals, honing their strokes to be razor sharp. At their level they don't have to spend much time (a few minutes each day)...but they do them nonetheless.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Ahhh yeah. That was sort of the point of my post. They are constantly working on their fundamentals = cueing technique. They aren't constantly doing fairly routine cue ball control drills. The more I learn about them, the more I find that top players haven't really spent as much time on the cue ball control type of drills as we have been led to believe.

Now maybe there is a best formula for becoming a top player and maybe this formula would consist of some cue ball control drills. However, I do not believe anybody has yet to figure out this formula and I don’t think extensive case studies have been done on it. I am interested in knowing what the Chinese youngsters are working on though.

But again, my point is why work on a specific skill when that skill could be mastered while playing? Does anybody spend a significant amount of time drilling the lag shot? I can't imagine they do. This is a skill that is sort of acquired along the way. The same mindset can be applied to many simple shots that are just working on speed control. Is this really a good investment of your time on the table, when you consider that each and every shot you take you are getting feedback on your speed control?

In my mind, I picture a spectrum. On the one side, there are very simple skills that are acquired just through normal play (e.g. lag shot). On the other end of this spectrum, there are shots that one must go out of his way to master (e.g. 10 Ball Break). Now it's up to each individual player to determine which skills fall under the "acquired through normal play" route and which skills they must actually work on. Everybody’s spectrum is going to be a bit different.

Nobody would benefit from wasting their table time acquiring skills that they could have acquired through normal play BECAUSE that time could have been better spent on something else. Looking back, I am now fairly confident that I wasted a lot of time.

As far as being close-minded is concerned, I'm anything but. I've just learned that you don't want to be so open-minded that your brains fall out.

 

[Dopc]

The game can be broken down into four areas. 1. The stroke 2. Ball pocketing 3. Cue ball control. 4. Mental attitude

If you feel you are satisfied in any of those areas, then work on a different area. As far as what the pros work on, well, you don't play like they do, so you need to work on more areas than they do. As for me, I need work in all four areas, so I do things (drills) that target each area individually.

I'll also say this- just because a pro doesn't work on something is no reason for me not to work on it. Who knows how much better the pro would actually be if they did work on it? My game started to really improve when I stopped worrying about what someone better than me was and was not doing, quit using them for an easy excuse for me not to do something that wasn't particularly fun for me, but instead took an honest look at MY game, and worked on what I needed to work on. I learned to make it fun, not a chore. And I learned a whole lot in the process.

Neil.
I'd green rep you but it states I must spread some love around before repping you again. The post I quoted above may just be the BEST piece of advice I've seen given on AZB. I'm not sure if that was your intention or not, but I sure hope people read, and re-read it again to fully absorb the underlying "Big Picture" your hinting at here.

Opinion warning:

Self awareness and *Honest* self evaluation is the most important factor to facing and improving ones weakest elements of *their* game. To execute like a brain surgeon, there is no room for error, not a single one. That single error could be fatal. In a tough match or set, if it comes down to the wire and you're faced with any self doubt about a certain shot, should you error here chances are it will be a fatal one. Ask yourself this, which brain surgeon would you choose? The one who meticulously masters his/her skills and abilities through meticulously executed surgery drills, or the surgeon who just strolls in and says "I don't need any surgery drills, I got this". My choice is made, is yours?

Along with muscle memorization, working on & nailing down a type of shot you struggle with has a double benefit. The first being improving skill & execution, the second is confidence in your ability to execute. Now we all know what the difference can be between skilled confidence and blind confidence. More times than not, the skilled confidence gets the cheese while the blind confidence finds the chair.

When it comes to drills, I am of the belief that while they are extremely beneficial, they must be done in moderation with 100% focus. Meaning you must pay as much attention to each execution as if it was real world scenario. Mindlessly repeating the same task over and over will hardly net you any gain in my opinion. (Example) I will work on a drill roughly 5-30 times depending, then I will setup a layout on the table incorporating this type of shot 2 or 3 shots in, several times over. The results will dictate if further work is needed (and it usually is).

So in closing, it is of my belief that one will only get back what one puts in when doing drills. Do I think drills are the only form of practice needed, absolutely not. Doing drills is only a small part of building a solid base for a master of his/her art. Do not discount the value of mental conditioning as well, an area a lot of people fail to address. Ones mental strength could be the deciding factor of a given outcome in competition, of course one can't discount the luck factor as well.

Dopc. Knows not of what he types, so you're probably better off not reading his posts....

 

[sjm]

Sorry I've been backed into a corner many times on this subject so I tend to get a bit defensive but I still feel strongly about it.

I've paid attention to your posts on here so I know you are a smart cookie, so I'm a bit surprised you would say "Virtually all drills have value." That's the part that I don't think is accurate. It's my assertion that many players work on skills that can easily be mastered while playing the game and could better spend their practice time working on skills that aren't so easily mastered. This would make for a much quicker learning curve.

This has proven a valuable thread. It may be true that all skills can be developed through play, but even if it is, is that the fast track to mastery of the game? My opinion is "no" but it is no more than my opinion. Perhaps, as you suggest, there comes a moment in a player's development where refinement and reinforcement of certain skills is better accomplished through play alone rather than drills.

Thanks for your insights.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Ahhh yeah. That was sort of the point of my post. They are constantly working on their fundamentals = cueing technique. They aren't constantly doing fairly routine cue ball control drills. The more I learn about them, the more I find that top players haven't really spent as much time on the cue ball control type of drills as we have been led to believe.

Now maybe there is a best formula for becoming a top player and maybe this formula would consist of some cue ball control drills. However, I do not believe anybody has yet to figure out this formula and I don’t think extensive case studies have been done on it. I am interested in knowing what the Chinese youngsters are working on though.

But again, my point is why work on a specific skill when that skill could be mastered while playing? Does anybody spend a significant amount of time drilling the lag shot? I can't imagine they do. This is a skill that is sort of acquired along the way. The same imindset can be applied to many simple shots that are just working on speed control. Is this really a good investment of your time on the table, when you consider that each and every shot you take you are getting feedback on your speed control?

In my mind, I picture a spectrum. On the one side, there are very simple skills that are acquired just through normal play (e.g. lag shot). On the other end of this spectrum, there are shots that one must go out of his way to master (e.g. 10 Ball Break). Now it's up to each individual player to determine which skills fall under the "acquired through normal play" route and which skills they must actually work on. Everybody’s spectrum is going to be a bit different.

Nobody would benefit from wasting their table time acquiring skills that they could have acquired through normal play BECAUSE that time could have been better spent on something else. Looking back, I am now fairly confident that I wasted a lot of time.

As far as being close-minded is concerned, I'm anything but. I've just learned that you don't want to be so open-minded that your brains fall out.

There's a reason why playing won't yield the same results as doing drills. It's simply because when you play you aren't always going to shoot the same shot or play the same position multiple times like in a drill.

You can't just shoot a shot once and have it mastered otherwise we'd all be pros.

Just because certain pros don't practice certain drills now doesn't they didn't when they got started and it certainly doesn't mean they wouldn't benefit if they started them now.

 

[RussPrince]

Every time i go the main discussion forum to see what's being posted here, I read someting that I find a collossal waste of time, and pointless. This would be today's find.

 

[trob]

play target pool every day and that and the sweet 16 shots has made my position play more accurate then I ever thought possible. I used to guess playing multiple rails with the cue ball. Now I can look at a diamond and know how to hit it. To each his own on what makes you a better player I guess but for me it's the gospel.

I would like to add OF COURSE you need a great stroke and OF COURSE that needs to come before position drills!! With out a consistent repeatable stroke you will never play consistent position.

Position drills that involve pocketing easy shots are worthless?

You must be joking. The great game of "target pool" developed by Kim Davenport is one of the best position play aids in our sport's history. It is almost entirely about shooting easy shots and controlling the cue ball precisely. If you think you can play "target pool" well without exceptional cueing, you're kidding yourself. When Kim Davenport was using it as a practice aid back in the early 1990's, his position play was as good as everybody but Buddy Hall.

Dismissing time-tested methods of attaining excellence over the glorious green felt is, to me, a bit ridiculous.