The Deflection Battle Heats Up!

Donald A. Purdy said:
You know, guys, I don't think it really matters. Back when Mosconie made his high run, what kind of cue was he using? What kind of shaft?
Your Friend, Don P.
Your time would be better spent practicing and playing. ;)
God forbid the day when the best players in your local hall play with "conventional" shafts and the ones who can't beat the 3-ball ghost play with "performance" shafts. :D
 
The Point

What I am trying to say is that until you can do it with a house cue like Buddy Hall did, you arn't gonna improve anything with all this intelectual stuff.
The old guys didn't have any of this stuff and played much better than the rest of us. What was their secret. How did they do it? Ya know what I mean?
JMHO Your friend, Don P. :cool:
 
Mr. Purdy:
This is how they did it. They played pool!
I am all for advancement, and technology is a great tool to learn and understand, but the bottom line is Predator, Meucci have made a great effort to make us aware of different options with shafts, Some cue makers have also done this to make them selves more versatile in the industry. As we all have found out, there is not one shaft that fits every one so the options are a great asset to find what suits your personal needs. But you still have to play pool to win and it does take talent and discipline. We cannot all be champions but we can be competitors.
 
Donald A. Purdy said:
What I am trying to say is that until you can do it with a house cue like Buddy Hall did, you arn't gonna improve anything with all this intelectual stuff.
The old guys didn't have any of this stuff and played much better than the rest of us. What was their secret. How did they do it? Ya know what I mean?
JMHO Your friend, Don P. :cool:

Ok Don,
You are right, I swear off this intellectual pursuite for life! :D

Seriously though, just becuase guys like Eddy Merk (sp?) could ride over the French alps without raising a sweat on bikes that weighed a ton, that was no good reason to stop the progress of bicycle design. A good rider on an old 1930's bike will still beat a beginner on a the latest contraption. But so what, bikes perform better today, and improving equipment is a worthwhile cause.

I shouldn't have to preceed all my articles with: "Reading this will not improve your game, you should be out on the practice table. If you spend too much time reading this, seek medical advice from Dr. Cue, Tom Rossman".

btw: Joseph's comment above is pretty spot on....not to mention funny. Reminds me of when all the local hacks were paying out big bucks for the latest pretty fiberglass cues.

Gimmicks always sell! And old players are only dragged into change, kicking and screaming!
 
Donald A. Purdy said:
What I am trying to say is that until you can do it with a house cue like Buddy Hall did, you arn't gonna improve anything with all this intelectual stuff.
The old guys didn't have any of this stuff and played much better than the rest of us. What was their secret. How did they do it? Ya know what I mean?
JMHO Your friend, Don P. :cool:

Don,

One day last weekend, we went into the pool hall while waiting to see 'Harry Potter'. We shot for awhile killin time. Since we had not brought our cues, we played with house cues. I was surprised at how well I shot with 'inferior equipment'. Maybe I am getting a little better. LOL

Laura
 
Colin Colenso said:
In fact, what advantages can a good butt have over a cheap butt at all?

Maybe a more solid feel? Inlays and rings not popping through the coating? This would make me not want to play with the cue. A nice looking cue is like a nice looking suit, it makes the wearer feel good about himself (herself?). Now, having sid that, a jerk in a good suit is still a jerk, and a ball banger with a $3000 custom cue is not going to play better, no matter how good he feels. Deflection is a characteristic of a cue one must get used to. Really good players do this quickly. Average players do not always understand it or even know about it. This is one reason why having your own cue is a good thing. Once you get used to it (no matter the deflection, as long as it is consistent) you will play more consistently than if you are pulling a different cue off the wall with a different type tip and weight and amount of deflection and shooting with that. I tend to agree with Ron Shepard's views on deflection or "squirt" in the paper he has written on it, but I think that it is something you do not need to even know about to shoot well. Object ball throw from the cut angle and from spin on the cueball are far more important, IMO.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Drivermaker,
I'd like to know exactly what Bob Meucci does have to say about the how the butt effects deflection.
I'd like to hear from anyone on this actually.
In fact, what advantages can a good butt have over a cheap butt at all?


Personally, I am neither the company spokesperson or the head of R&D for Meucci. But, I'll bet that if you called Bob Meucci and told him that you're writing articles for a magazine and if he could give you some insights, he would be willing to do that. If you don't know the answers to your questions above and there IS information out there which you're unaware of, you'll end up promulgating the same myths, misconceptions, and unconfirmed theories that continue to infest the marketplace today. My personal feelings and gut feelings are that all parts of a cue might play a role in the end result since the implement is a sum total of all it's parts. Surely the role could be miniscule compared to others, but it's still there. I can't say that I'm an expert on very much in life other than one thing, and that's a golf club. And every intricate little facet of a club plays a role in it's final performance and more are being discoved as we speak. The answers still just aren't all there.
 
Colin Colenso said:
...with practice, you can get used to the cue you're using I'm sure.

The truth! Combined with Purdy's 'get out and play', IMO, the end of discussion.

-pigy
 
Colin Colenso said:
Ok Don,
You are right, I swear off this intellectual pursuite for life! :D

Seriously though, just becuase guys like Eddy Merk (sp?) could ride over the French alps without raising a sweat on bikes that weighed a ton, that was no good reason to stop the progress of bicycle design. A good rider on an old 1930's bike will still beat a beginner on a the latest contraption. But so what, bikes perform better today, and improving equipment is a worthwhile cause...

I believe it is spelled Merckx- over 500 victories as a professional- beat 'em in the hills, on the flats and in individual races against the clock. Year round, too!

I also believe your analogy is spot-on!

Damn, I am agreeable today...

-pigo
 
Colin Colenso said:
Swerve will take effect moreso on soft shots, but only if your cue is elevated.
As has been pointed out many, many times, the stick is elevated significantly on all normal shots. That there is still confusion about this reflects badly on the current state of general technical understanding about pool.
 
Personally, I am neither the company spokesperson or the head of R&D for Meucci. But, I'll bet that if you called Bob Meucci and told him that you're writing articles for a magazine and if he could give you some insights, he would be willing to do that
What kind of credibility does he have left?
He claimed his red dot shaft had the lowest deflection of any shaft.
Then, he claimed laminated shafts were not good b/c of the glue and the laminations were inconsistent.
So, he turns around and makes flat lam, plywood, black dot. :D
He claimed the butt alone in his cues reduced deflection. lol
Maybe but I don't believe straight-taper butts do.
Dual taper maybe but that opens a can of worms. :D
 
Using extreme outside english is easier than using extreme inside english in my experience, why is this so?
 
((VH)) said:
Using extreme outside english is easier than using extreme inside english in my experience, why is this so?
Probably a matter of your individual practice. I used to play with someone who used inside english on all hard cut shot. He thought it was easier to aim that way. Some players routinely use outside english because they think it cancels throw, and due to their constant practice, outside spin shots are easier for them.

In the end, you need to be able to use either spin as required. You may want spend more time on shots you have trouble with than shots that you have perfected.
 
Joseph Cues said:
What kind of credibility does he have left?
He claimed his red dot shaft had the lowest deflection of any shaft.
Then, he claimed laminated shafts were not good b/c of the glue and the laminations were inconsistent.
So, he turns around and makes flat lam, plywood, black dot. :D
He claimed the butt alone in his cues reduced deflection. lol
Maybe but I don't believe straight-taper butts do.
Dual taper maybe but that opens a can of worms. :D


So who and what does one believe? Do you place 100% credibility in all of the marketing hype that Predator puts out and believe everything they say? Some players do, I sure don't, nor am I disagreeing with what you just said. Colin Colenso made a claim in his opening post that 50% of ALL the pro's are now using Predator. As far as I know, there is no independent research group that does a case check at all of the tournaments which determines what product each player uses. That's another myth thrown out by Predator to inflate numbers. A number was just pulled out of the clear blue sky. They gave the break cues away and if they're counting that, it's a false count toward actual play. The break cue is a good product, but there isn't 50% usage on playing cues, especially since deflection just isn't that big of an issue with the pro's.
 
According to the paper "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Cue Ball Squirt, But Were Afraid to Ask" by Ron Shepard...
( http://www.sfbilliards.com/Shepard_squirt.pdf )

Deflection will occur above or below the pivot point on a cue stick, but not *at* the pivot point! [Pivot point as discussed in the above paper.]

I have tried this and found that different cue sticks will have different pivot points at which *no* cue ball deflection will occur - This is discussed in the above paper. (My supply of different cue sticks and testing methods are of course limited.)

I have one stick with a 20" pivot point. Sure enough... Pivot for English at 10" or 30" and you get cue ball deflection. Pivot at 20" and *no* cue ball deflection! How did I find the pivot point? By using the test suggested in the above paper.

To get to my point/suggestion, I think cue sticks should *not* have little or zero deflection, rather the shaft should be "tuned" or weight adjusted so that the pivot point is exactly where you hold the butt of the cue stick. Then to aim, you would line up for a dead center aim, then move your bridge hand left/right for English and have no cue ball deflection.

So if the pivot point is further back than where you hold the butt of your cue, I think just the right amount of weight should be added to the tip so it moves the pivot point forward to where you hold the butt. Anyone thought of doing this?
 
drivermaker said:
Colin Colenso made a claim in his opening post that 50% of ALL the pro's are now using Predator. As far as I know, there is no independent research group that does a case check at all of the tournaments which determines what product each player uses. That's another myth thrown out by Predator to inflate numbers. A number was just pulled out of the clear blue sky. They gave the break cues away and if they're counting that, it's a false count toward actual play. The break cue is a good product, but there isn't 50% usage on playing cues, especially since deflection just isn't that big of an issue with the pro's.

I would have to seriously disagree with you. Check the last issue of Billiards digest pro's in New York and their gear. All but two used Predator products. It is far from being a number thrown out by predator. The stats are pulled from UPA players that purchase equipment from us. I seriously doubt that there is a top 20 pro out there that isn't concerned with deflection. There are alot more pros that use our shaft than what most people realize. The shaft will make your game more consistant, weather or not you choose to take advantage of that is personal choice. Me if i am playing golf and I have the choice between two drivers, one is going to put in the fairway in regulation more often, then that is the driver that I will use. I just spent a month in Vegas listening person after person tell me how much of a diffeence the shaft has made in there playing and that they would never use anything else. I know that I wont!
 
Colenso Delfection Theory Part 1

Bluewolf said:
Read that paper and almost fell asleep in the middle of it.
:eek: Could have done without all that physics stuff. Colin, when you write yours, I hope it be such that an ordinary person can understand what you are saying.

Laura

Ok Laura, here is my own theory, and I believe it is much easier to understand that Ron's analysis.
-------------------------------------------

Colenso Theory of Deflection: Part 1 What Causes Deflection?

Deflection, also known as squirt, is the effect of the cue ball being deflected from a line parallel with the cue when the cue ball is struck off center.

See Arial view of deflection in diagram below:

A is the line of the cue, A’ is parallel to A and B is the deflected line of travel that the cue ball actually takes.

The deflection angle varies according to several factors that are discussed below.

The further the target is from the cue ball, the harder it becomes to compensate for deflection. Hence, it makes sense that reducing the amount of deflection will be an advantage in achieving more consistent accuracy in playing shots with english.

Factors affecting Deflection

According to most billiard physics theorists, there are only two variables that determine the amount of deflection. These are:

1. The Distance from Center that the cue ball is struck.
2. The Endmass of the cue.

The distance from center is quite easy to understand; the further you hit the cue ball to the side, the higher is the deflection angle.
Lowering the Endmass will also reduce the deflection angle, but what determines the endmass of the cue is harder to determine and may have several variables as described below.

1. Lighter tip, ferrule and shaft may reduce endmass.
2. Thinner cue end.
3. A more flexible shaft may reduce endmass.
4. A lighter cue may reduce endmass.
5. A looser grip may reduce endmass.

Points 1 and 2 are generally accepted, point 3 is often accepted, while the effects of points 4 and 5 are considered by most to be negligible.

An Erroneous Assumption about Slip

The 2 factors of deflection as stated above are best outlined in a paper written by Ron Shepard. See: http://www.sfbilliards.com/Shepard_squirt.pdf

In this paper, Ron states “Squirt occurs even when the tip does not slip. The tip does not slip on normal shots.” This is, I believe, the key error made by billiard physics theorists.

Firstly, they have never tried to define slip. Part of the reason for this is that slip, or grip is very hard to define in a physics sense. In fact, the entire field of frictional physics is full of assumptions, because to really investigate friction we need to analyze in deep detail the billions of tiny collisions occurring at a collision interface.

In fact, at the atomic level, it would be more accurate to say that all collisions are approximately 100% elastic. An example of a near perfect elastic collision in larger objects is the collision between two billiard balls. We might call this a slip collision. In this type of collision, the objects deflect at paths of 90 degrees.

So when the tip hits a cue ball at an angle, to say there is no slip, really assumes that the cue tip surface creates a contact surface on the cue ball that is at 90 degrees (perpendicular) to the line of the cue. But if this were true, then there would be no deflection of the cue ball; there would simply be rotation of the cue ball, as it travels along a path parallel to the line of the cue. The following diagram helps to illustrate this idea. See below.



In part 2 of this series, I will expand upon the idea of what slip or grip is, and how it affects deflection.
End of Part 1
 

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rocky said:
I would have to seriously disagree with you. Check the last issue of Billiards digest pro's in New York and their gear. All but two used Predator products. It is far from being a number thrown out by predator. The stats are pulled from UPA players that purchase equipment from us. I seriously doubt that there is a top 20 pro out there that isn't concerned with deflection. There are alot more pros that use our shaft than what most people realize. The shaft will make your game more consistant, weather or not you choose to take advantage of that is personal choice. Me if i am playing golf and I have the choice between two drivers, one is going to put in the fairway in regulation more often, then that is the driver that I will use. I just spent a month in Vegas listening person after person tell me how much of a diffeence the shaft has made in there playing and that they would never use anything else. I know that I wont!


No bias here.....
 
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