The future of pool

[336Robin]

Exposure

Satori,
What a big bunch of stuff you said. You don't lack for imagination and neither does a lot of people but I find that when an idea is hatched you have to have someone that is going to pay for it and get something out of it.

As far as exposure goes I have to agree with what macguy says about pool being a successful subculture. It being a subculture it would likely eventually develop mainstream exposure were it popular enough within the subculture but who do we go towards in order to see that new people come into the sport?

The only persons that I see that we have in a recruiting effort are.
1.Ourselves by inviting someone to learn to play
2. The Room Owner

We get paid by developing a Pool Buddy.
The owner gets paid by developing a customer.

Suprisingly enough a lot of room owners don't see Pool Players as paying customers because of the cost of the tables, floor space etc because of the economy of the Alcohol business. It's easy to turn the lock on the door and let the drinkers come in to drink and never do anything in the way of promoting the business.

My way of thinking about things is to develop a product or a service that helps room owners market personally to individuals or groups. I think the person that does that successfully is the person that gets the credit with finding the type of ideas that bring pool back into being a stronger subculture. Also we need to accept pool for what it is. It doesn't mean it cant be a cleaner sport and done in a cleaner, neater way. It just means let it be what it is, market it and let it do what it will.

 

[(((Satori)))]

Satori,
What a big bunch of stuff you said. You don't lack for imagination and neither does a lot of people but I find that when an idea is hatched you have to have someone that is going to pay for it and get something out of it.

As far as exposure goes I have to agree with what macguy says about pool being a successful subculture. It being a subculture it would likely eventually develop mainstream exposure were it popular enough within the subculture but who do we go towards in order to see that new people come into the sport?

The only persons that I see that we have in a recruiting effort are.
1.Ourselves by inviting someone to learn to play
2. The Room Owner

We get paid by developing a Pool Buddy.
The owner gets paid by developing a customer.

Suprisingly enough a lot of room owners don't see Pool Players as paying customers because of the cost of the tables, floor space etc because of the economy of the Alcohol business. It's easy to turn the lock on the door and let the drinkers come in to drink and never do anything in the way of promoting the business.

My way of thinking about things is to develop a product or a service that helps room owners market personally to individuals or groups. I think the person that does that successfully is the person that gets the credit with finding the type of ideas that bring pool back into being a stronger subculture. Also we need to accept pool for what it is. It doesn't mean it cant be a cleaner sport and done in a cleaner, neater way. It just means let it be what it is, market it and let it do what it will.

How about a nation wide youth league where the players are told to invite their friends? Does that work for you?

Seriously though, a youth league won't be able to generate millions of participants from a reality show but thousands of new players as a start is very doable with room to grow and I don't see money being an issue. Both the show and league should be profitable.

 

[Mr. Bond]

My way of thinking about things is to develop a product or a service that helps room owners market personally to individuals or groups. .

Go old school, and build room- backed teams, young and old, then challenge other rooms, schools, local businesses, banks, fraternal organizations, churches, boy and Girl Scouts, restaurants, bars, charitable organizations, celebrities, bowling alleys, or just about any group with a team who wants free PR.

Just a thought

 

[336Robin]

Not a Bad Idea

Go old school, and build room- backed teams, young and old, then challenge other rooms, schools, local businesses, banks, fraternal organizations, churches, boy and Girl Scouts, restaurants, bars, charitable organizations, celebrities, bowling alleys, or just about any group with a team who wants free PR.

Just a thought

Mr. Bond,
Thats not a Bad Idea at all. The part that I most like about it is the fact that it is an outreach program but, you have to find a Room Owner willing to market the great idea. I dont see that we have a problem recruiting people. I think we have a problem getting Room Owners to recruit people. The people are there, the ideas are there. Convincing a Room Owner is difficult especially if it calls for a lot of extra steps. Im sure running a Pool Room with Alcohol isnt for the faint of heart. Im sure he has plenty to do.

 

[macguy]

That would bring a little awareness but it wouldn't have the impact of what I am visioning. There is a fear of what the image of gambling would do to the sport though. This fear is irrational imo. The promoters talk about how American pool suffered because of tcom, and the hustler but I certainly don't call the impact both had a pool suffering. It was the promotion of years later that has been killing it. The boring keep it safe promoting. I'm not saying we have to go crazy here but how about a little excitement?

Promoters also have recently used the Mosconi Cup results as evidence that pool players should view the sport as Thorsten or Ralf do. They say Americans view it as a thing to gamble on and that is ruining the sport and the players. BS, just look at how the Filipenos view the game, how good their players are, and how popular the game is in that country. The same results could happen in America if the sport were promoted right and I don't believe that promoting it as a high class, clean, wholesome sport is the way to go. The game needs a little edge to it imo. Just a little edge though, enough to make the game exciting and be presented in a way that has an impact.

Pool is a lot of things, An activity. pastime, competitive sport, then there is the gambling thing along with the numerous games that can be played. That is why there is no answer. Millions of people play and they play for different reasons.

Few, even hardcore players like to watch pool. People who like it mostly like to play pool. The only way to get them to watch for more then a few minutes like watching a trick shot, is to present it to them in a way they themselves identify with.

I am sorry, but to get pool in the mainstream it will, at least for now, have to be bar pool and league play.
Millions play bar league and they could maybe be lured to watch a form of pool they identify with, as well as players they identify with. As the sport grows a certain number would hopefully just as a natural outgrowth migrate to big table play.

It is best to start with what you have to work with already and the league players are everywhere. Right on here look at this thread
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=345063
Over a thousand responses and tens of thousands of views. Been up over 6 months and the thread is still alive getting postings. Compare that to the many threads about Pro pool and Mosconi cup that get a few hundred views and a handful of responses and it easy to see what grabs peoples attention even on here.
Not any kind of definitive poll but interesting.

 

[Dunnn51]

Pool is a lot of things, An activity. pastime, competitive sport, then there is the gambling thing along with the numerous games that can be played. That is why there is no answer. Millions of people play and they play for different reasons.

Few, even hardcore players like to watch pool. People who like it mostly like to play pool. The only way to get them to watch for more then a few minutes like watching a trick shot, is to present it to them in a way they themselves identify with.

I am sorry, but to get pool in the mainstream it will, at least for now, have to be bar pool and league play.
Millions play bar league and they could maybe be lured to watch a form of pool they identify with, as well as players they identify with. As the sport grows a certain number would hopefully just as a natural outgrowth migrate to big table play.

It is best to start with what you have to work with already and the league players are everywhere. Right on here look at this thread
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=345063
Over a thousand responses and tens of thousands of views. Been up over 6 months and the thread is still alive getting postings. Compare that to the many threads about Pro pool and Mosconi cup that get a few hundred views and a handful of responses and it easy to see what grabs peoples attention even on here.
Not any kind of definitive poll but interesting.

So you found the best time slot for the action-reality series : aka Sunday/Monday night.

 

[macguy]

So you found the best time slot for the action-reality series : aka Sunday/Monday night.

I didn't really understand your response but I am not talking about a reality series, just the presentation in general of pool that the pool playing public will take notice of and can identify with. I think there is a misconception about these league player and bar players. They are the backbone supporters of the industry in general.

The days of the line from the hustler where the guy, I believe Big John says, "I don't try to hustle guys who walk into pool rooms with leather satuals". is a thing of the past. Go to any bar league night and you will find Jack Justis cases and all kinds of cues from low line to the top of the line.

On any given night at a bar league match there may be $5000.00 or $10,000 worth of equipment being used in that room by what are by any pool standard of measurement, everyday average players. They do most of the real buying and supporting for the retail billiard industry.

They are also the same people who are fans and supporters of other sports that have a ton you sponsors and supporters. I don't think their real numbers have been explored, this is not a small group it would seem. I am guessing they number in the many millions who play on a regular basis and are to some degree serious about it. We are talking about an amateur sport/game that has really a lot of players.

Years ago they did a survey of sports and pool was found to be in the top ten of participating sports people played. The problem was it was a bogus survey. All it took for you to be a pool player was to have played I believe 3 times in the last year. Today, we really do have and we know it, millions who play every week and spend millions of dollars both directly as well as indirectly.

The pool industry as a whole needs to pay for a real up to date examination of the sport. Put together "Real" numbers of what the sport and players represent in terms of participation and dollars spent. Is pool and it's players worth a sponsor at least taking a second look. It would certainly be interesting. The pool league numbers alone are probably readily available as a start.

 

[TCo]

Go old school, and build room- backed teams, young and old, then challenge other rooms, schools, local businesses, banks, fraternal organizations, churches, boy and Girl Scouts, restaurants, bars, charitable organizations, celebrities, bowling alleys, or just about any group with a team who wants free PR.

Just a thought

tap tap tap

I saw the "field trip" thread - that is a great idea!
Community education classes about pool - coordinate through your local schools
Why not high school competitive CUE sports - my local high school has archery

While you can argue the popularity of pool vs any other sport, fact is that this a LIFE sport. It's not football, baseball, hockey, etc that so very few play after high school so we should stop looking at those sports for examples - golf, tennis, biking, volleyball - look at those success models.

Youth programs accepted by education could be what drives popularity.

Television is the answer? I think that is grasping. If you really look at the perceived heyday a.k.a. "Post TCOM", it was an extremely short spike in popularity compared to the lifecycle of the game. The real boom time was BEFORE the popularity of TV, not 1990.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Without creating an emotional attachment directing people is like........

Without creating an emotional attachment directing people is like "herding cats".....it's possible, and not probable. 'The Game is the Teacher'

How about a nation wide youth league where the players are told to invite their friends? Does that work for you?

Seriously though, a youth league won't be able to generate millions of participants from a reality show but thousands of new players as a start is very doable with room to grow and I don't see money being an issue. Both the show and league should be profitable.

 

[9andout]

I just want to get on the record. I LOVE watching pool matches! And not for just a few minutes. Also, I BOUGHT the Earl vs. Efren PPV and got my wife to watch it with me. And she plays maybe once a month.

 

[Banks]

Pool is a lot of things, An activity. pastime, competitive sport, then there is the gambling thing along with the numerous games that can be played. That is why there is no answer. Millions of people play and they play for different reasons.

Few, even hardcore players like to watch pool. People who like it mostly like to play pool. The only way to get them to watch for more then a few minutes like watching a trick shot, is to present it to them in a way they themselves identify with.

I am sorry, but to get pool in the mainstream it will, at least for now, have to be bar pool and league play.
Millions play bar league and they could maybe be lured to watch a form of pool they identify with, as well as players they identify with. As the sport grows a certain number would hopefully just as a natural outgrowth migrate to big table play.

It is best to start with what you have to work with already and the league players are everywhere. Right on here look at this thread
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=345063
Over a thousand responses and tens of thousands of views. Been up over 6 months and the thread is still alive getting postings. Compare that to the many threads about Pro pool and Mosconi cup that get a few hundred views and a handful of responses and it easy to see what grabs peoples attention even on here.
Not any kind of definitive poll but interesting.

That's what I've been saying for years. Pool really isn't very sustainable in a go-it-alone, library atmosphere.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the Earl Strickland 'Million Dollar Shot' Documentary absolutely FREE.

It's always nice to hear some positivity on azbilliards!!! Listening to all this "doom and gloom" about why pool "won't ever make it" gets monotonous. Especially when it's coming from the "sweaters," and not the "players".

PM me your address and I'll send you the Earl Strickland 'Million Dollar Shot' Documentary absolutely FREE......you can read more about it at www.cjwiley.com

I'll even throw in another two TV matches with Earl and me playing in the 'Million Dollar Challenge' with Jimmy "Pretty Boy Floyd" doing the commentary.

Just PM me your name and address, reference this post and I'll ship it out to you tomorrow.

Best Wishes to You and Your Wife, and Play Well.

I just want to get on the record. I LOVE watching pool matches! And not for just a few minutes. Also, I BOUGHT the Earl vs. Efren PPV and got my wife to watch it with me. And she plays maybe once a month.

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou,
I wish I didn't get it but I've kind of studied on this awhile in order to get it. On all levels I've looked into pool is a tough way to try and make money. So you do it because you love it and the best you can hope for is to get someone else to enjoy it too because its a hard game to fully understand. For me that understanding is compelling and I enjoy the challenge and the competition. I would like more people to see it that way so there would be more people to play when you go to the pool room. I think pool is a very nice addition to a full life of work and family. Mac posted a story about how he found out how to go get the business in another thread I think and it proved to me that there are people that want to play pool, you just have to find them and give them some incentive to do that.

Every idea I have ever come up with for getting new people into the sport fell short because of apathy on the part of someone unwilling to try things. So I think it just takes some education to get people to open their eyes some to doing something about getting new customers. If a owner has a decent business I would guess that he would be the hardest to convince in doing anything. If a owner is going down he might be willing to work some for it.

Without an organization created to promote pool the only organization we have to rely on is the room owner and our individual efforts.

Exactly -- you do it because you love it.

I've always thought that the key to "fixing pool" would be a new model of pool room, which would center around the idea of "pool centers" scattered among the major population centers. They'd have to appeal to the serious 9' players, the bar leagues, have plenty of room for spectators, offer lessons, a pro shop, darts, video, good food and drink, offer corporate parties... sort of a chain of Fargo Billiards If 6-12 of these were nicely scattered across the country you'd have the infra-structure to re-ignate interest in the game from youth leagues on up.

Probably never happen.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

It's always nice to hear some positivity on azbilliards!!! Listening to all this "doom and gloom" about why pool "won't ever make it" gets monotonous. Especially when it's coming from the "sweaters," and not the "players".

"Reality. What a concept."


Lou Figueroa

 

[Mr. Bond]

Did anyone make the most of the people who started pool because of tcom?

When tcom came out kids said "I can do that, I want to do that," meaning they could be a cool character like Vincent and play a cool game and make some money. I'll get back to this in a minute but first I want to ask about something else.

What are you talking about when you say make momma happy, quality over quantity, etc.? What are the plans? You seem to be in with some of the people who are looking to grow the sport, I'd like to know what their vision is. Please explain who momma is and how they plan on making her happy, and where will this lead pool to? This sounds fascinating to me.

Now back to what I was saying earlier. Imo someone needs to get the kids to say "I can do that, I want to do that" again. There seems to be zero marketing outside of azb and it is not even directed towards generating new fans or new players. You say a reality show that appeals to a network won't work in growing pool at the same time. We'll how about a reality show that revolves around the youth of pool in heavy action? How about making superstars out of Skylar Woodward, Joey Grey, Chip Compton, Justin Bergman etc.? How about we make millions of teenage boys around the country say "that is cool, I want to do that." And how about this time, before the interest is generated, there is a plan for keep the kids involved? For example, let's say that someone were to structures a league for teenage boys and girls across the nation to get involved in and make some cash if they win. There could be weekly tournaments for the participants also every Saturday and this whole system could be professionally marketed during the commercial breaks of every exciting episode in the reality shows life. A league for teenagers as big as the b a would generate not only players but also fans. Friends, family they all start to support them. Sponsors get involved, perhaps tv coverage, etc. And to top this vision off what if in there were a professional league, that paid out some real cash, also that the players could aspire to become? Of course this is not possible immediately but instead of the owner of the armature league pocketing every dollar he could invest in pro pool so that somewhere down the road both a successful amateur league and successful pro league are both possible, respectable, and working together and it all started with a reality show about gambling as the initial hook.

You have a great understanding of what I've been alluding to. It's not the tv show or the movie that's bad, it depends on the premise, or story that's being told.

CJ is right about something that I've been preaching about on billiard radio all year, which is, matches on video are just matches on video unless you give the fans some kind of intimate understanding or insight as to who these people really are and what they are like. This is fairly obvious in other major sports where fans "follow" their favorite players.( and teams)

Someone to love or hate. A villain and a hero. It's story writing 101. It's the superbowl, world series, and the Stanley cup. Amen and amen.

So take the excitement, the suspense, the classic and timeless battle for the cheese to a higher level of attraction for the masses, all masses, but do it in a way that promotes participation in legit, respectable events or matches.

legit competition does not automatically mean boring. Remember the superbowl? It's all about presentation and that good old fashioned story building. Pool players call it barking and woofing.

My only point has been that selling seedy pool might make a few bucks but it won't make an industry.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Has not this subject been beaten to death like maybe once, or many time before? Nothing will change with Pool until the people playing the game have a change in attitude, dress, conduct, and all the negative stereotype are removed or eliminated from pool. JMHO.

 

[macguy]

You have a great understanding of what I've been alluding to. It's not the tv show or the movie that's bad, it depends on the premise, or story that's being told.

CJ is right about something that I've been preaching about on billiard radio all year, which is, matches on video are just matches on video unless you give the fans some kind of intimate understanding or insight as to who these people really are and what they are like. This is fairly obvious in other major sports where fans "follow" their favorite players.( and teams)

Someone to love or hate. A villain and a hero. It's story writing 101. It's the superbowl, world series, and the Stanley cup. Amen and amen.

So take the excitement, the suspense, the classic and timeless battle for the cheese to a higher level of attraction for the masses, all masses, but do it in a way that promotes participation in legit, respectable events or matches.

legit competition does not automatically mean boring. Remember the superbowl? It's all about presentation and that good old fashioned story building. Pool players call it barking and woofing.

My only point has been that selling seedy pool might make a few bucks but it won't make an industry.

I am curious about something, you do the radio thing and I have listened to most of what has been on there. What kind of listenership do you get? Do you have numbers? I ask because here is some of the statistics for this forum currently. Threads: 360,704, Posts: 4,686,156, Members: 46,571. Your presence here is well known among forum members. That is a pretty big pool, are you getting the volume of listeners that this kind of exposure should generate?

You mention the Superbowl. That is completely hype and nothing else. Five minutes after the game the average person who was watching on TV unless they were betting on it has forgotten all about it. Even in the stadium, after three days of partying and tailgating and all the hype, unless it is a great nail bitter of a game they are headed for the exits to beat the traffic by the beginning of the forth quarter.

In other words, they don't really care about it at all, it was just the most recent band wagon to jump on, now they are looking for the next. It is hard to pin down the public and find what they will actually pay attention to for more then a minute. Tough to build an industry around constant hype or gimmicks. You need something more real then that.

 

[336Robin]

Spectators

Exactly -- you do it because you love it.

I've always thought that the key to "fixing pool" would be a new model of pool room, which would center around the idea of "pool centers" scattered among the major population centers. They'd have to appeal to the serious 9' players, the bar leagues, have plenty of room for spectators, offer lessons, a pro shop, darts, video, good food and drink, offer corporate parties... sort of a chain of Fargo Billiards If 6-12 of these were nicely scattered across the country you'd have the infra-structure to re-ignate interest in the game from youth leagues on up.

Probably never happen.

Lou Figueroa

I agree with your idea of a Pool Center that would serve all the segments of the game and be an Event Center for groups that would circulate in new patrons, possibly new players. What I would really see working here is a for real affordable and personal marketing strategy that involved meeting with some groups possibly even inviting them in to hold their next meeting. You could even do it under the guise of why don't you have a meeting here at least once a year and invite all of the local civic clubs to do it. When they are there have a plan to organize their time so..... it is fun for them. Without fun everything in this post is wasted. If it turns into grinding competition and people are scared to miss, that's not fun for beginner. It has to be fun.

As for CJ's comments above. This is not about doom and gloom its just not the comments you want it to be. I think its time that people and room owners figured out what its going to take to pick up sales. If a room owner is stuck into thinking that its impossible then that's doom and gloom. A local owner here bought out his partner and immediately he was a little more proactive and that increased traffic to his place ..immediately. So your attitude about it and what effort you find worth it makes a big difference.

Yes to having a place for Spectators. I've only been in a handful of places that had bleachers and it was awesome to be able to watch matches between some of the local hot shots. More of that is definitely needed.

I think I know what it is....CJ wants to be the star of the movie!

 

[lfigueroa]

I agree with your idea of a Pool Center that would serve all the segments of the game and be an Event Center for groups that would circulate in new patrons, possibly new players. What I would really see working here is a for real affordable and personal marketing strategy that involved meeting with some groups possibly even inviting them in to hold their next meeting. You could even do it under the guise of why don't you have a meeting here at least once a year and invite all of the local civic clubs to do it. When they are there have a plan to organize their time so..... it is fun for them. Without fun everything in this post is wasted. If it turns into grinding competition and people are scared to miss, that's not fun for beginner. It has to be fun.

As for CJ's comments above. This is not about doom and gloom its just not the comments you want it to be. I think its time that people and room owners figured out what its going to take to pick up sales. If a room owner is stuck into thinking that its impossible then that's doom and gloom. A local owner here bought out his partner and immediately he was a little more proactive and that increased traffic to his place ..immediately. So your attitude about it and what effort you find worth it makes a big difference.

Yes to having a place for Spectators. I've only been in a handful of places that had bleachers and it was awesome to be able to watch matches between some of the local hot shots. More of that is definitely needed.

I think I know what it is....CJ wants to be the star of the movie!

In the back o' me mind I have always thought that a properly designed pool hall should have walls that actually conceal basketball-style bleachers that could fold out and accommodate a lot of spectators for tournaments, exhibitions, and lessons. When not in use they'd fold up against the wall and there'd be room for regular seating and cafe sized tables. But no one takes a serious number of spectators into consideration.

And who knows what CJ wants... unless it includes his name up front in lights.

Lou Figueroa
and banjos playing

 

[Paul Schofield]

I have a suggestion to all you folks and this includes Robin: Go do the work. Implement your ideas. Then come back here and tell everyone what worked. Do something.