The future of pool

[CJ Wiley]

The "Harom of Haters" starter kit - stay tuned, more to come quickly

CJ,
You CAN spread it a lil' thick sometimes. :groucho: I don't hate you for it B/C I know how much you LOVE THE GAME OF POOL ! I understand that pool is a big part of your life. You probably have talent beyond what I will ever have.

Yes, it's said we haven't reached our potential until you have a "harem of haters," and although I only have three now, it's just a matter of time before I reach my full potential.

 

[Dunnn51]

You are right ! (and wrong)

CJ,

We are both right,....and wrong.
The elder (40+) demographic no doubt has more money than the younger ,BUT that is myopic vision. While the older does indeed have more money, what happens as they eventually fade away.Their health prevents them from playing, or we all eventually die-off with no-one to replace us having interest in the game. I would say it would be wise to target the elder crowd from a monetary standpoint;BUT that is not going to prop-up the faltering foundation of this game. That aspect lies squarely upon the youth. Anyone, who has an interest in keeping pool alive should realize this.
You can't JUST hook-up an IV bag to an accident victim and expect them to come to full recovery.

 

[336Robin]

It's tough to communicate with those that think the older demographic is going to somehow disappear. The 40+ group in the United States are stronger now than they've ever been and this will continue to grow over the foreseeable future.

Trying to target the younger demographic, who we know doesn't have any interest in pool is certainly not prudent. This may sound tempting, however, in business we have to face reality, not "wishful thinking". Pool is an adult game, and that will never change.

The 40+ crowd is the greatest market for pool, and every marketing and advertising specialist I know agrees with this. 'The Game is the Teacher'



I don't always agree with CJ on his level of enthusiasm for thing I don't see are going to happen but hope they will but I do agree with him in part on this.

Im 52 and have I guess 7/8 cues valued at 5 to 6 thousand likely collectively. I spend money at the pool room. My friends who are old like me do as well. To ignore this demographic takes money directly off the table and we might just encourage some new players and we might teach someone. So that cant be ignored.

Neither can grassroots youth programs if they will ever get off the ground.
We need millenials and young people to support the game.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the total population is growing by 2 million to 3 million people a year.

This is faulty reasoning - many more people will reach over 40 next year than will die...there is a constant rotation and the population continues to increase. ***


***
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released the report Wednesday. It's drawn from a review of most death certificates from last year.

The report found that the rate of deaths per 100,000 people actually dropped to an all-time low . That was offset by the fact that there are so many Americans — about 314 million.

The increase in deaths is occurring at a time U.S. births have been falling for several years, but there more than enough newborns to replace Americans who die. The number of births last year was close to 4 million. Add in immigrants, and the total population is growing by 2 million to 3 million people a year.

___

CJ,

We are both right,....and wrong.
The elder (40+) demographic no doubt has more money than the younger ,BUT that is myopic vision. While the older does indeed have more money, what happens as they eventually fade away.Their health prevents them from playing, or we all eventually die-off with no-one to replace us having interest in the game. I would say it would be wise to target the elder crowd from a monetary standpoint;BUT that is not going to prop-up the faltering foundation of this game. That aspect lies squarely upon the youth. Anyone, who has an interest in keeping pool alive should realize this.
You can't JUST hook-up an IV bag to an accident victim and expect them to come to full recovery.

 

[Dunnn51]

This is faulty reasoning - many more people will reach over 40 next year than will die...there is a constant rotation and the population continues to increase. ***


***
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released the report Wednesday. It's drawn from a review of most death certificates from last year.

The report found that the rate of deaths per 100,000 people actually dropped to an all-time low . That was offset by the fact that there are so many Americans — about 314 million.

The increase in deaths is occurring at a time U.S. births have been falling for several years, but there more than enough newborns to replace Americans who die. The number of births last year was close to 4 million. Add in immigrants, and the total population is growing by 2 million to 3 million people a year.

___

CJ,
You quote from demographics of the General population in the US. I am talking about the pool population If you think there is a direct correlation between the two, (eg: as the general population rises ,so will the pool playing population), you may be mistaken. Pool, is on the wrong side of history right now, the inter-relation likely may not be even.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Let's see if we have anyone under 22 looking at AZ.

The first 10 "under 22" pool players that respond on this thread will receive a FREE DVD PACKAGE.....and an autographed poster (retail value over $50). I just need a face book address to verify your age and address.

Let's see if we have anyone under 22 looking at AZ.....I doubt it, however, will honor this FREE give away for the next 24 hours......sorry, where were we? Oh, yeah, the advertising vehicle needed to put pool back in the "universal subconscious" again.


The TV presence will bring the game into the public spotlight again.

ESPN had 60+ million people when I was involved and now it's universe is over 110 million.....despite what people want to think, the future is televising pool on TV and targeting a 30+ age demographic.

I like kids and was one like everyone else....however, when I was a kid "adult activities" were very appealing......and they still are. Pool is an "adult activity" and this will be irresistible to kids when it's properly promoted.

'The Reverse Psychology is the Teacher'

CJ,
You quote from demographics of the General population in the US. I am talking about the pool population If you think there is a direct correlation between the two, (eg: as the general population rises ,so will the pool playing population), you may be mistaken. Pool, is on the wrong side of history right now, the inter-relation likely may not be even.

 

[Ruark]

Uhhhhhhh....... last time you were in a pool hall, how many people over 40 were there?

 

[CJ Wiley]

"how's that been working out for us in the last 15 years?"

I just came from a pool room/sports bar called VOLCANOS and there were over 50%....I'd say 85% over 30 (out of a room close to 100 people).

The 30+ crowd is the ideal target demographic....that's simply the facts according to professional marketing and advertising opinions.

We can try to be "the exception," however, we have to ask "how's that been working out for us in the last 15 years?" - the pool industry is down over 50% since the year 1999 following the current "no marketing" plan.

Kids don't need to be hanging out at places serving alcohol like bars and pool halls.....they need fresh air, sunshine and exercise pumped in to their "PlayStation".

Uhhhhhhh....... last time you were in a pool hall, how many people over 40 were there?

 

[macguy]

CJ,

We are both right,....and wrong.
The elder (40+) demographic no doubt has more money than the younger ,BUT that is myopic vision. While the older does indeed have more money, what happens as they eventually fade away.Their health prevents them from playing, or we all eventually die-off with no-one to replace us having interest in the game. I would say it would be wise to target the elder crowd from a monetary standpoint;BUT that is not going to prop-up the faltering foundation of this game. That aspect lies squarely upon the youth. Anyone, who has an interest in keeping pool alive should realize this.
You can't JUST hook-up an IV bag to an accident victim and expect them to come to full recovery.

Having money and having a willingness to spend it are two different things. My experience with older people is they want everything for nothing. I live in a very affluent area of the country with a large retirement population.

Beyond buying their condo, that is the first and last nickel the put into the local economy. I know it can sound like a cliché or a bit by a comedian but it is completely true. They go to early bird specials leave no tips and complain about all the other patrons.

I found the same thing in my own pool room, they didn't want to pay for coffee, wanted discount rates and the max they would play anyway would be like an hour. I run into it now when I get a call from a condo with tables wanting to have their cues re-tipped.

They think I should pick up and deliver the cues for like $2.00 a cue. Any time they call for anything I always say know. They can be complete pains in the ass and not worth the trouble. I am really shocked that anyone would think old people are the future of pool. Younger people will come in, stay all night and spend their whole bankroll. The trick is to get them in but they are worth it if you can.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the cycle is almost broken, it's just a matter of time now.

The current demographic in pool is unhealthy, and that's how businesses devolves unattended...they end up with the "bottom of the barrel" in spending. The game is a shell of it's previous form due to the rules, equipment, and production creativity.

For anything to have "new life," it must die......you will see this clearly in nature and for pool to have this "regeneration" it (the business of pro pool) must completely pass away it's old ideas, attitudes and patterns - the cycle has been broken recently, it's just a matter of time now - 'The Game is the Teacher'

Having money and having a willingness to spend it are two different things. My experience with older people is they want everything for nothing. I live in a very affluent area of the country with a large retirement population.

Beyond buying their condo, that is the first and last nickel the put into the local economy. I know it can sound like a cliché or a bit by a comedian but it is completely true. They go to early bird specials leave no tips and complain about all the other patrons.

I found the same thing in my own pool room, they didn't want to pay for coffee, wanted discount rates and the max they would play anyway would be like an hour. I run into it now when I get a call from a condo with tables wanting to have their cues re-tipped.

They think I should pick up and deliver the cues for like $2.00 a cue. Any time they call for anything I always say know. They can be complete pains in the ass and not worth the trouble. I am really shocked that anyone would think old people are the future of pool. Younger people will come in, stay all night and spend their whole bankroll. The trick is to get them in but they are worth it if you can.

 

[Paul Schofield]

CJ:

Instead of retreating to bumper-sticker and fortune-cookie logic when you're cornered, you perhaps might want to put your pride aside, and think about what is said. Knee-jerk replies with cracker-jack prizes don't cut it in debates.

Yes, I pride who I am in my later years precisely because of the life experience I've garnered. It has molded and shaped me into who I am today. But at the same time, my vision past my nose is quite good, and I tend to look at the larger problem. I don't know, maybe it's my military background or something, but I tend to boil problems down into their root causes, and address that.

Otherwise, this continuous marketing you're giving is just like the "it's not about the nail" message in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg

Think about it.
-Sean

Another condescending ignorant post. You are quite self important.

 

[336Robin]

Political Demographic

Having money and having a willingness to spend it are two different things. My experience with older people is they want everything for nothing. I live in a very affluent area of the country with a large retirement population.

Beyond buying their condo, that is the first and last nickel the put into the local economy. I know it can sound like a cliché or a bit by a comedian but it is completely true. They go to early bird specials leave no tips and complain about all the other patrons.

I found the same thing in my own pool room, they didn't want to pay for coffee, wanted discount rates and the max they would play anyway would be like an hour. I run into it now when I get a call from a condo with tables wanting to have their cues re-tipped.

They think I should pick up and deliver the cues for like $2.00 a cue. Any time they call for anything I always say know. They can be complete pains in the ass and not worth the trouble. I am really shocked that anyone would think old people are the future of pool. Younger people will come in, stay all night and spend their whole bankroll. The trick is to get them in but they are worth it if you can.

Sometimes the truth is hard to take and I see some in the above post. I have friends that I consider on the other side of the Political Aisle from me and their thrift is simply amazing. They are as one would say Penny Smart but dollar Dumb. Its hard to have a good time around them for them wanting to eat crackers instead of order a plate of something, They wont let you pay $4.50 an hour in a nice place and forget the clock because you are having a good time. The keep up with practically every expense of the evening, shuttling the I paid for this and you can pay for that kind of stuff back and forth, it gets irritating but some interesting stuff, please no fighting words but it seems to devolve around political lines. My conservative friends are the worst, the more liberal ones spend, laugh cut up and pay the bill when they hit the door. I went into a place where the Millenial crowd is marketed to almost exclusively. Place full of yuppie professional and it was unreal. People were drinking, laughing, having a ball, taking cabs to the place because they knew they were getting smashed and taking one home...it was so different. The drinks there were reasonable in price but not cheap. I went home and looked Millenials up and found they were largely...liberal.

So amongst the tight ass old codgers it appears there is group that has value. I find it interesting that its the Liberals, who would have thought?

 

[sfleinen]

Another condescending ignorant post. You are quite self important.

Pot, meet kettle, especially on the "self important" notion. That one cracks me up. For someone who loves to sling the "condescending ignorant post" accusation, you sure are clueless.

 

[336Robin]

Death brings Rebirth

The current demographic in pool is unhealthy, and that's how businesses devolves unattended...they end up with the "bottom of the barrel" in spending. The game is a shell of it's previous form due to the rules, equipment, and production creativity.

For anything to have "new life," it must die......you will see this clearly in nature and for pool to have this "regeneration" it (the business of pro pool) must completely pass away it's old ideas, attitudes and patterns - the cycle has been broken recently, it's just a matter of time now - 'The Game is the Teacher'

I couldn't agree more, although we sometime disagree with the methods we use to reach people. A poster here several frames back mentioned this is a sport where you "poke a ball with a stick" and shove a ball in a hole and that in itself is boring for a lot of young people who have so many wonderful things that are vying for their attention.....and hes right.

We have to face the reality that ....We....the industry has made Pool what it is and a great deal of it is not fun for people. We have to focus on what is fun for people and push that, push that and push that.

Individual competition is not fun for beginners. Its a good way to watch your friend who plays better than you run out, laugh at you and talk trash to you while you cant figure out what it is you need to do to beat them.

So I think focusing on that....Individual Competition.... is among the worst things you can do. Focus on groups, Focus on Fun then you might get some people back to be social together. That is what grows pool.

It might be hard to get a bunch of School Programs started right off the bat but it doesn't mean we cant change the face of the sport for the Amateur.

Make it fun and you will get every demographic you want.

 

[Ruark]

Several people have brought up public school pool programs.

Much of my professional work before I retired was in the area of public school funding and state level education administration. Based on my experiences there, I'm very aware of some factors that might be relevant to the concept of pool programs in the public schools.

In general, it would be wonderful if we had something like that, and kids could come out of school being REALLY skilled pool players. Imagine the chain reaction that would set off in the industry.

Funding. Most schools are starving for funding, as they cancel art and music programs to "get back to basics," support huge numbers of new immigrant students, meet national testing standards, hire "highly qualified" instructional staff, and so on. Spending thousands of dollars on pool tables, plus the space to set them up in (when classrooms are already overcrowded) is beyond the realm of fantasy for most schools.

If the physical facilities and equipment can nevertheless be obtained, you have the issue of finding and hiring qualified pool instructors, and in many states these would have to be certified teachers.

Then there's the issue of working it into the official state approved curriculum. Would it meet a Physical Education requirement? Probably not. Arts and Sciences? No. Not much else, besides just a "fun" elective. A school that just canceled its Art or Drama program for lack of funds isn't going to start up a pool program that doesn't even meet any curricular requirements.

Then, like everything else in education, it has to go through layer after layer after layer of approvals. It would have to be approved by the school district school board meeting, for starters. Good luck with that one. You'd have to draw up a complete projected budget - cost of space, utilities, equipment, tables, instruction and support staff, maintenance and supplies, etc. and present that to the school board. "So you want to allocate $68,520 to teach students to shoot pool?" I can just see the furrowed brows.

Then you would have to present a very strong case for a NEED to add pool to the students' educational experience. "Educational need" is an extremely important and powerful concept in school administration decisions. I can almost guarantee you that the very first words out of a school board member's mouth would be, "what educational need does this meet?" How would the students benefit from it, personally and educationally? And how does this benefit justify the cost that might be spent elsewhere? These are the kinds of questions that would be asked, and if you don't have instant, rock-solid answers to them, there's the door.

There is one possible alternative approach: a student organization. Public schools, especially high schools, are big on student clubs. Science club. Computer club. Chess club. Poetry club. Future Business Leaders Club. Clubs are sponsored by a teacher, who is responsible for administering the club's operation within school rules, setting up activities, etc. The school usually provides the club with a limited amount of funding for activities, patches, maybe some local travel, etc. With a club, the school wouldn't have to be responsible for buying pool tables and so on. The club could meet, say, twice a week at a Fast Eddie's or a Slick Willie's, or whatever, and have some professional instruction and some practice matches. Eventually, you could have matches between pool clubs in different schools, with trophies, articles in the school paper, a "city championship," etc.

Just some random thoughts.....

 

[Ruark]

the industry has made Pool what it is and a great deal of it is not fun for people.

This is a real core concept. Probably 95% of the people out there who shoot pool (have a table at home, go to a pool hall occasionally, etc.) have no idea how to shoot bank shots or can clear a table. When your ball misses the pocket, your enjoyment goes down REAL fast.

That's why, in my opinion, it's not very productive to suggest tournaments and competitions as a way of popularizing pool: by the time somebody can comfortably participate in those activities, they're already "serious" players.

 

[336Robin]

Pool Club Concept

This is a real core concept. Probably 95% of the people out there who shoot pool (have a table at home, go to a pool hall occasionally, etc.) have no idea how to shoot bank shots or can clear a table. When your ball misses the pocket, your enjoyment goes down REAL fast.

That's why, in my opinion, it's not very productive to suggest tournaments and competitions as a way of popularizing pool: by the time somebody can comfortably participate in those activities, they're already "serious" players.

Ruark,
I read your last two posts and find a lot in them. Some of the things you are writing about go along with something that I am doing that I call "Pool Club" its what I call an Gentle Marketing Concept that involves some Personal Advertising and its based on the inviting of groups to play...only keeping it fun and not necessarily about individual competition.

Unfortunately the minute that individual competition becomes the highlight of things, that's when the fun goes down for beginner and that's where the Industry way of thinking has been and obviously that is working so well.

I like what youre writing very much and some of those concepts will undoubtably find there way into what I'm doing as a side step sort of thing. I do think that you are definitely onto something if a School could gain access to a room whenever there is no other business to interfere where it pertains to alcohol sales.

That could be viewed a Private Time for donation or rent and not something for the public as it is fun but it is instructional and children would have the time to perfect their methods for playing the game and then be allowed to get together for something like partners games .....which are by the way.....Fun.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Look at NASCAR, they're some of the greatest at marketing emotion

I don't think "fun" is an emotion that people even understand, much less have the ability to achieve regularly (as a potential anchor for pool).

Strong emotion drives people to do and say things they normally wouldn't. Pool has to drive this emotion, and it's not "fun," it's much more intense, stimulating and may even elicit strong beliefs......"I hate that player because......." Look at NASCAR, they're some of the greatest at marketing emotion, and their results are undeniable.

"Capture the people's emotional state and their hearts and minds will follow" - The Game is the Teacher'

I couldn't agree more, although we sometime disagree with the methods we use to reach people. A poster here several frames back mentioned this is a sport where you "poke a ball with a stick" and shove a ball in a hole and that in itself is boring for a lot of young people who have so many wonderful things that are vying for their attention.....and hes right.

We have to face the reality that ....We....the industry has made Pool what it is and a great deal of it is not fun for people. We have to focus on what is fun for people and push that, push that and push that.

Individual competition is not fun for beginners. Its a good way to watch your friend who plays better than you run out, laugh at you and talk trash to you while you cant figure out what it is you need to do to beat them.

So I think focusing on that....Individual Competition.... is among the worst things you can do. Focus on groups, Focus on Fun then you might get some people back to be social together. That is what grows pool.

It might be hard to get a bunch of School Programs started right off the bat but it doesn't mean we cant change the face of the sport for the Amateur.

Make it fun and you will get every demographic you want.

 

[itsfroze]

I think what you need to do is capture their attention, that will put the smile in their expression !

 

[macguy]

I don't think "fun" is an emotion that people even understand, much less have the ability to achieve regularly (as a potential anchor for pool).

Strong emotion drives people to do and say things they normally wouldn't. Pool has to drive this emotion, and it's not "fun," it's much more intense, stimulating and may even elicit strong beliefs......"I hate that player because......." Look at NASCAR, they're some of the greatest at marketing emotion, and their results are undeniable.

"Capture the people's emotional state and their hearts and minds will follow" - The Game is the Teacher'

I don't want to always be the devil's advocate, but NASCAR has a product. I can't for the life of me see the product in Professional pool. I say professional pool because that is what I think you are talking about, amateur pool seems to be doing fine in fact it may be thriving.

I don't think if there is a short lived reality show on TV about pool, investors are going to be running out and opening pool rooms in every city. The state of the game will remain relatively the same. COM airs constantly on cable, I am sure they get a certain number of new viewers every time it shows. So there is some exposure going on even now.

You say "Capture the people's emotional state and their hearts and minds will follow". Nice saying but for how long? People have a 10 minute attention span.

There is a saying in politics, "All politics are local". Pool needs to grow on a local level. The viability of the small family run pool room has to be reignited. Contrary to popular belief there is a workable business plan for the small family run pool room much like sprung in every city in the 60's.

You don't need a back breaking investment to open a small room that can provide a nice living for someone. Maybe what is needed is someone like you who knows the business to start a consulting firm for such business. Help the ones that are already out there, as well advise those who are thinking about going into the business.

Until there are places to play tell me how the game can grow? I have and I know you have as well been in a zillion small town pool rooms that were like a blue print for the business. Places that were well run and you could set your clock by the customers they were so loyal. A well run pool room almost belongs to the customers, you just own the place.

They grow to love the place maybe even more then you do as the owner. Figure out how to capture that and present it to the public and you may develop something that will have a long lasting effect on the game. The room I started playing in was just a 12 table place in a bowling alley, but it was a home away from home for most of us regulars that went there, some of who are still friends to this day..

My father died when I was young. Not knowing what to do that day I went to the pool room and got a back table and played 14.1 by myself the rest of the night. I was told later that a family member showed up and saw me back there. They told the old man who worked the desk what had happened. He suggested they just leave me alone and they did.

Please don't get some idea I am some nay sayer, I am not. I love the game as much as anybody who has ever played it. I wish I knew some magic formula that would see nice pool rooms in every city again like they were at one time. Maybe I am dreaming but I think it can begin to grow again on a local level.

Not everybody is broke, they just may need some direction that would help them realize a dream of owning their own pool room. As it stands now if you told someone you want to own a pool room they would tell you you are crazy, even on this forum. I honestly don't believe this is Pie-in-the-sky, without these local pool rooms there is no sport, just a memory.