The future of pool

[lost]

I have always thought that the Private Club Concept

would work if presented to the Senior Community as something for them to do with their time and some of their money.

If the tables we made available to schools then there would be the learning environment needed for scholastic ventures and since no alcohol would be involved it would work much better.

It would take someone from a consulting firm who was getting paid to go around and talk to members of the Senior Centers and there is one in every town. or to the Moose Lodge, Elks, Masons Lodge etc to find the funding and set the desire in people to do it.

Billiard Products companies could donate balls, house cues, tip replacement tools etc to get it started and then sell them things as they need it.

Just dreaming here but if some company wanted to make an investment in the Seniors and kids in order to advertise their product to the community then if they would help with the funding some, they people who helped do it would probably buy them out once the thing got going and therefore the companies investment and expense for the advertisement of their brand would eventually be.......ZERO...

It would not have to be a Billiard Business to back it.

It could be Ford, GM, IBM, HP, someone that sold consumable goods that wanted a bigger footprint in peoples lives and know that people are going to remember the investment made with future purchases.

So I see this as something that could be done and would be done if someone got the right company involved for the sake of Seniors and Kids.

Maybe I'm missing something, but providing equipment is pretty much a drop in the bucket. Where is the money going to come from to provide the land and building and other fixed costs? Presenting pool as a charity isn't going to fly any more than dart would.
It's possible I'm off base and not understanding your post, but our local senior center already has pool tables.
Are you suggesting Ford or IBM might want to build subsidized pool halls?

 

[TCo]

Teacher vs. Learner

Ugh, this is getting tiresome but we all know the truth - The Game IS the Teacher. so I guess this makes us all Learners - some apparently better than others.

What is "The Game" teaching? Different things to different "Learners".

Lets use our friends at Brunswick Mfg as an example.

What has the game taught Brunswick Mfg since The Color of Money? I think if you worked there, let's say in Marketing, where do you think they (Execs) have asked you to focus your attention? ...and why?

Is it fair to say that the focus is where they can real eyes a profit for their business? Is it also fair to compare profit from the 1990's vs 2010's profits (adjusted)?

Perhaps "The cliche' is the Teacher"

From Daniel Coyle, author of The Talent Code

http://thetalentcode.com/2014/05/16/10-ways-to-spot-great-teachers-and-avoid-crummy-ones/

excerpt from the blog:

Truly bad teaching is pretty easy to spot, because learners don’t improve, and don’t feel connected.

The game is a crummy teacher, in fact, it doesn't teach a thing. Its ALL of the people involved. If you happen to be involved with great people, you're more likely to be involved. Unfortunately, John Q Public has been involved with some less than respectable people.

Change the game all you want, straight pool, 9 ball, 10 ball, 1 hole, bonus ball - there is one thing in common - it's us. So until we're willing to take ourselves out of carnival worker mode - we're eff'd.

CJ's statement about the chasing away of the woman, bad management, etc etc could be somewhat true but the snake oils salesman delivery is what I can't get by. That too is an image that is getting projected and unfortunately is what I am "learning".

What is HE teaching the non-pool player, particularly AWAY from the table? What are WE teaching the non-pool player?

 

[Snapshot9]

Private clubs

Pool still exists, but in the form of different leagues for the most part. Pool is going through a transition from 'hustling' to 'sportsmanship', the prevalent attitude over in Europe.

Private clubs will not work in the USA, mostly because Pool Players are cheapskates, and will not pay for a membership. Even if the private clubs exist, I wouldn't imagine them having many members, and people, players and railbirds alike still like to go 'where the action is'. Like I said before, Pool still exists, but it is without a National entity that would oversee and make rules for the nation as a whole. It is mostly supported from a regional basis, therefore it ends up in many directions, instead of one common path that plays to a greater goal in the sport, like reaching the Olympics.

As a result of that and the lack of a Pro tour that supports a pro player, these challenge matches for 5, 10, and 20k are popping up along with the streaming of these matches for PPV. Anyone that has been to college, especially in a Masters program, knows that a bottom up design of a business rarely works, and growth is usually non-existent, no to mention the confusion that comes with it. I also might mention that these $1,000 entry tournaments are popping up to try to get decent paydays for pros and semi pros, and draw interest.

The game is not the teacher, unless you study every single nuance about the game, and watch every good player play the game and study what they do right, and what they do wrong. It pretty much was the teacher for me, as I watched the very best players in my town play for 6 months before I ever picked up a cue, plus I read 3 books on Pool on how to play the sport the right way before I ever started playing. But, you have to be a student of the sport, and it takes hard work sometimes, you can't approach the sport nonchalantly, and expect to get good at it. Very rarely do I see a player with the right attitude and discipline in them to achieve the next higher levels.

 

[336Robin]

Truly Lost

Maybe I'm missing something, but providing equipment is pretty much a drop in the bucket. Where is the money going to come from to provide the land and building and other fixed costs? Presenting pool as a charity isn't going to fly any more than dart would.
It's possible I'm off base and not understanding your post, but our local senior center already has pool tables.
Are you suggesting Ford or IBM might want to build subsidized pool halls?

No disrespect Mr. lost but the expected expenses you list wouldn't even be on the balance sheet and its obvious you don't understand the post and suggesting it as a charity is even further off base and it has nothing to do with an existing senior center in your town that already has tables or in any town where that exists because Im sure there are plenty of towns where pool tables are not a part of the senior center as in my town.

I even did not suggest that a large corporation subsidize depending on your definition of what you are talking about is. I will be happy to just say we disagree rather than to try to spend 20 frames trying to explain it to you. No disrespect but I think you jumped a little fast before you posted.

I do however think that a lot of American Companies are sitting on large storehouses of cash and that cash could be used for various reasons including getting in touch with a key demographic they want to get more in with...so there are possibilities for companies to become a part of the billiard industry if that industry touches seniors and children those demographics are a desire able marketplace for them to be in.

I was suggesting a part ownership and not a subsidy at all, then the sale of the ownership at a later date covering the cost for any advertisement that the company incurred.

Surely if the company decided to forgive the loan and ownership at a later date then that would become a subsidy but if it were done with the goal of advertisement that was gained is that truly a subsidy at all?

 

[CJ Wiley]

TV is the Key to the future of pool, don't let anyone kid ya

I have the actual table that Earl ran the 11 racks for the Million Dollars in my teaching facility (Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas) and it still plays very, very well. One of my friends just purchased one from my old pool room that's been in storage for many years and it's as good as you can get.....they are made to last and last and last.

Brunswick has a multi billion dollar department in Fishing and Bowling so they don't place an emphasis on pool currently.....this could change quickly if we get a TV series going strong...... TV is the Key to the future of pool, don't let anyone kid ya. 'The Game is the Teacher'

I always played my pool "back in the day" on brunswick gold crown tables that they put into every bowling alley they built. In other words pool was an adjunct to their bowling business....and even their bowling business is a shell of it's former self. Somebody can fill me in but has it actually been spun off at this point?
A friend of mine from upstate New York would often see Irving Crane in his local Brunswick bowling alley practicing away by himself.
Then.....about 30 years ago my local bowling alley started to remove the Gold Crown tables one by one and replace them with fusball tables, and video games, and a few coin op Valley's....and then the bowling alleys themselves were bulldozed and replaced by condos, etc....It's hard, actually impossible to turn back the clock. We all have a favorite times in our lives,,,,doesn't mean it's somebody else's favorite..
Anyway...

 

[Mr. Bond]

I have a vision of something along the lines of a Moose lodge, Elks, Eagles, Am Vets, etc,..... but dedicated to billiards. An city with 100000 plus population should be able to have a 10 table facility, and have enough membership base to sustain itself. Wish I had the money to start one.

We have one here in Chicagoland. The Illinois Billiard Club.
It's an Oasis in the desert. Couldn't ask for more.

Pool still exists, but in the form of different leagues for the most part. Pool is going through a transition from 'hustling' to 'sportsmanship', the prevalent attitude over in Europe.

The thing is, both hustling and the gentlemen's game have always existed, its just a matter of which is getting more attention in the public eye. (And it goes back and forth) Some are trying to highlight positive and professional attributes that are acceptable across the board, while others try to highlight the seedy underworld. ( c.o.m. etc)


Private clubs will not work in the USA, mostly because Pool Players are cheapskates, and will not pay for a membership. Even if the private clubs exist, I wouldn't imagine them having many members, and people, players and railbirds alike still like to go 'where the action is'. Like I said before, Pool still exists, but it is without a National entity that would oversee and make rules for the nation as a whole. It is mostly supported from a regional basis, therefore it ends up in many directions, instead of one common path that plays to a greater goal in the sport, like reaching the Olympics.

Private clubs can and do work, and not just for seniors.
They are a very underutilized business plan.

In some cases, the patrons are indeed high stakes players and they use the club because they are dedicated enough to want a playing environment that transcends the bar scene.

Where the rules of the outside world don't apply.

Where they know they are in good company, can leave their cue case unattended, and bring any guest they like, from their girlfriend to grandma martha, with no fear of scaring anyone.

I agree with what you said about a national entity.

 

[CJ Wiley]

pool at this level is more of an "art form" or a way of self expression.

The Game teaches far more than just "how to draw you ball".....at the deepest level it teaches us how to accomplish things that would "baffle" non players.

The most powerful mental techniques must be taught through archery, music, art, pool, martial arts, etc....pool at this level is more of an "art form" or a way of self expression....and of course that is "The Teacher'.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

The Game teaches far more than just "how to draw you ball".....at the deepest level it teaches us how to accomplish things that would "baffle" non players.

The most powerful mental techniques must be taught through archery, music, art, pool, martial arts, etc....pool at this level is more of an "art form" or a way of self expression....and of course that is "The Teacher'.

That's what I dig about your dvds, you talk of the sport on another level. Very well said. It's how I always describe to non pool players when they ask why I go to watch a pool tournament for ten hours-to watch some of the best in the world play on that level can be pure art. Like going to the museum.

 

[lost]

I have the actual table that Earl ran the 11 racks for the Million Dollars in my teaching facility (Dallas/Ft. Worth Texas) and it still plays very, very well. One of my friends just purchased one from my old pool room that's been in storage for many years and it's as good as you can get.....they are made to last and last and last.

Brunswick has a multi billion dollar department in Fishing and Bowling so they don't place an emphasis on pool currently.....this could change quickly if we get a TV series going strong...... TV is the Key to the future of pool, don't let anyone kid ya. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Yes they are/were like rocks...boulders would be a better word actually.

BTW...My first name is also Carson and that's one reason I remember you from back whenever. Not too many Carson's were showing up in my northern neck of the woods. I got the the name from my father who was from the south originally.
Anyway....I'd take you on in a game of golf or tennis any day...may the best Carson win :wink:.pool...I'd give you a decent game believe it or not...i emphasise the word decent...OK 1/2 decent at least, but I'd need a few weeks to get the rust off. I played competitive sports into my early 20's then faded into softball for a while....now just golf and tennis,,,and pool if I ever find a table that isn't attached to a bar.

Anyway I derailed this thread a bit..back to the future of pool in schools or senior centers or whatever is going on here.

 

[336Robin]

Billiard Club Concept

With pool all but vanishing in a lot of towns for various reasons I think the Billiard Club Concept would and could work, maybe even as a part time gig provided if the room can be rented cheap enough...

One of my questions is:

How big of a room would one need for 4 tables ...9 footers?

Square and long ways?

 

[(((Satori)))]

Going back to reality shows and if they can make an impact... Dana White, when asked who should be inducted into the UFC hall of fame this year, said he thinks the whole cast for season 1 of TUF should be and will be in the hall of fame because "that show was a game changer."

 

[Agent 99]

The Future of Pool Where?

If you are talking the future of pool in the USA I would have to conclude that it does not have one. At least not much of one.

Pool, like anything else, will grow and prosper where it is watered.

In the USA the only way to grow and maintain a sport requires television exposure. Without it you have what you have now with Pool in the USA.

In other countries pool is state sponsored. In Asian countries pool players are considered national hero's and their names are household words.

In the USA it's all about the cash, and if you can not attract viewers on television you have no cash, and very little awareness in the public that the sport even exists.

 

[buckshotshoey]

We have one here in Chicagoland. The Illinois Billiard Club.
It's an Oasis in the desert. Couldn't ask for more.

.

It sounds like heaven;-). Tell me about it. I have a tear in my eye.

 

[336Robin]

Infrastructure

If you are talking the future of pool in the USA I would have to conclude that it does not have one. At least not much of one.

Pool, like anything else, will grow and prosper where it is watered.

In the USA the only way to grow and maintain a sport requires television exposure. Without it you have what you have now with Pool in the USA.

In other countries pool is state sponsored. In Asian countries pool players are considered national hero's and their names are household words.

In the USA it's all about the cash, and if you can not attract viewers on television you have no cash, and very little awareness in the public that the sport even exists.

Agent,
I cant disagree with a lot of what you said but....if we had some places for people to be exposed to it would go a long way to provide adult players. Believe me Im not real fond of kids running around screaming around a pool table but I think a room that wasn't much to rent and some tables with adult supervision could provide an atmosphere where kids if they wanted to play would have treat it right.

I think if the cheap rent can be found that its a thing that would work and might even be a repeatable thing.

The key is rent and easy heating and cooling that can be turned off and on. I can see it happening but it would be slow process to build that kind of infrastructure without corporate help.

 

[336Robin]

Television Exposure

If you are talking the future of pool in the USA I would have to conclude that it does not have one. At least not much of one.

Pool, like anything else, will grow and prosper where it is watered.

In the USA the only way to grow and maintain a sport requires television exposure. Without it you have what you have now with Pool in the USA.

In other countries pool is state sponsored. In Asian countries pool players are considered national hero's and their names are household words.

In the USA it's all about the cash, and if you can not attract viewers on television you have no cash, and very little awareness in the public that the sport even exists.

I would find it hard to argue if we had Television Exposure but we still need some legs on which to stand. If pool were more popular and widely played at home that in itself is news worthy and more themes can be found to make stories out of that more people will relate to.

TV is not the holy grail of pool that people think it will be and yes anything in pool has to make financial sense but pool clubs might be viewed more as a great pastime than something that one makes a living from...and be in the form of key clubs during the day or manned only in the evening .

I think a 4 table Billiard Club would pretty easy to get to make sense provided good rent.

 

[Agent 99]

Sounds good 336 Robin

Agent,
I cant disagree with a lot of what you said but....if we had some places for people to be exposed to it would go a long way to provide adult players. Believe me Im not real fond of kids running around screaming around a pool table but I think a room that wasn't much to rent and some tables with adult supervision could provide an atmosphere where kids if they wanted to play would have treat it right.

I think if the cheap rent can be found that its a thing that would work and might even be a repeatable thing.

The key is rent and easy heating and cooling that can be turned off and on. I can see it happening but it would be slow process to build that kind of infrastructure without corporate help.

To address your question ... how big a room for four 9 footers.

Minimum without room for much more, a counter area only perhaps.

30 feet by 60 feet would be tight, but could work. I would not go smaller.

There are many properties available, it would be all about the lease I suppose.

The right location would be fun.

 

[Agent 99]

I would find it hard to argue if we had Television Exposure but we still need some legs on which to stand. If pool were more popular and widely played at home that in itself is news worthy and more themes can be found to make stories out of that more people will relate to.

TV is not the holy grail of pool that people think it will be and yes anything in pool has to make financial sense but pool clubs might be viewed more as a great pastime than something that one makes a living from...and be in the form of key clubs during the day or manned only in the evening .

I think a 4 table Billiard Club would pretty easy to get to make sense provided good rent.

Television Exposure done correctly can quickly create a large market filled with new customers like nothing else.

With high TV ratings comes advertising dollars and before long Brunswick wants to help folks open Pool Halls again.

This was happening when ESPN was airing Pool nationally.

It cold happen again, I think.

But for long term television success the structure of Pool would have to be understandable to those who are new to the game. A circuit ran with consistent rules and table size as well as other regulations would be a necessity.

That would be the real game changer.

 

[Dunnn51]

Club Concept

Funny that you mention the club concept.
I used to play as a teen at a moose lodge. It was a private club, but after I came in with a regular that thought nothing of dropping a $300(late 70's money) bar tab,I was in like flint. I played other regulars and got an occasional free coke. Best of it was that I used the time to practice up for bar matches elsewhere.
The table was an oak 8 footer with real leather drop pockets and red felt. When you potted a ball it made a sound like chips clashing together, (poker chips!)That guy and that 8 footer got me started. BTW, he was a family friend,... :grin:

Anyway,....
I am not so sure about the general public getting involved in a private club. Be it Moose , Elks, Rotary, VFW/Am. Legion, or Masons they all get pretty snobby if ya not one of "them". Just saying.
Four tables is not nearly enough for a public room. You need at least twice that many to be profitable and hold Tourneys etc.


still .03

 

[CJ Wiley]

Here's Earl Strickland talking about the similarities between tennis, golf and pool

That's cool, I was named after my distant relative, "Kit Carson"....he had quite a reputation in the southwestern United States - they say he shot really straight too.

I played tennis and pool about the same speed at one time, then pool became my focus. Golf is a passion and I spent a lot of time training with Hank Haney (the year before he became Tiger Wood's swing coach), and learned a lot about the mechanics of golf and how it directly applied to pool. Tennis and pool also have similarities when you play both of them enough to notice.

Here's Earl Strickland talking about the similarities between tennis, golf and pool on a NEW YORK TV interview.....click here to see it.

Yes they are/were like rocks...boulders would be a better word actually.

BTW...My first name is also Carson and that's one reason I remember you from back whenever. Not too many Carson's were showing up in my northern neck of the woods. I got the the name from my father who was from the south originally.
Anyway....I'd take you on in a game of golf or tennis any day...may the best Carson win :wink:.pool...I'd give you a decent game believe it or not...i emphasise the word decent...OK 1/2 decent at least, but I'd need a few weeks to get the rust off. I played competitive sports into my early 20's then faded into softball for a while....now just golf and tennis,,,and pool if I ever find a table that isn't attached to a bar.

Anyway I derailed this thread a bit..back to the future of pool in schools or senior centers or whatever is going on here.

 

[336Robin]

An Organization

Television Exposure done correctly can quickly create a large market filled with new customers like nothing else.

With high TV ratings comes advertising dollars and before long Brunswick wants to help folks open Pool Halls again.

This was happening when ESPN was airing Pool nationally.

It cold happen again, I think.

But for long term television success the structure of Pool would have to be understandable to those who are new to the game. A circuit ran with consistent rules and table size as well as other regulations would be a necessity.

That would be the real game changer.

I have to agree that if someone were to employ the right concepts for the opening of pool rooms by a template.....Nationwide...and provide a corporate structure for the playing of the game of pool. Its effect would be felt throughout the industry. That's more tables being made and more people wanting tables in their homes and more cues and sets of balls, more cases made etc, etc and this would trickle down into more money for sponsoring professionals.

If someone decided they wanted to have the attention of 20 million or so pool players and profit from them and build businesses around their emotional love of the game, that someone could loosely own a huge market.

and its doable...who owns most of the rental property? Seniors. Seniors love kids and what kids want to do to an extent.

So if you put Seniors in charge they are going to have a place to put it, the money to invest in it and they are going to say how its run which means it will be well done.

If I were a Pool Products Company I would have to look at this very seriously. If it were possible to provide incentives for people who would open up small Billiard Clubs to provide for markets later on, where is the market now? Its a no brainer. Especially if you can get your investment right back once the thing is going.

Then a movie would have very very positive effect on the culture of the game. If I were doing it, gambling wouldn't be the central theme. It might be about a competition player that rose up from humble past...sort of a Karate Kid kind of guy with a strong character for a mentor.