The Mosconi Cup is Not About ...

What's funny is the Euros are supposed to be the slow players.
Yet, they're doing better with the shot clock.
 
trob said:
Lol nothing like another ass beating in the mosconi cup to bring out the silly post by people who don't know enough to know they don't know anything lol calling svb and Johnny archer a b player lol that's a good one
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Neither one of them was called a B player. What was referred to is someones best or 'A' game and their 'B' game, when they aren't exactly playing to the best of their ability. Something can be off with a player and they aren't playing to the very best of their ability. And that is the game being talked about.
 
Very true Jay, and what I saw over the last 3 days was GREAT shots made (and missed) by both teams...definitedly pressure oriented.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

jay helfert said:
These guys are all very good players or they wouldnt be here. What I see over and over again is who holds up better under pressure. Thats what makes the biggest difference here. Having a lot of "heart" is what defines the champions every time, the ones who come up with the big shots under pressure.
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It's not a hitch...it's a pause (connected with Shanes sense of timing and rhythym). All poolplayers pause at the back (even ones who don't think they do)...some shorter or longer than others.

Absolutely we teach ALL beginners to Set, Pause, and Finish every stroke. It's how you develop a smooth stroke and great timing.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

BasementDweller said:
This hitch in his stroke is not something anybody would teach to a beginner and it's not something I've noticed with any of the other players in the event.
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Chicken wing doesn't matter at all...IF the cue goes straight through the CB. Think Keith's "chicken wing" bothered his stroke? Good instructors don't try to fix what's not broken. I've had students with the cue curled in or out, who delivered the cue dead straight...and as such, I don't try to force somebody out of it. Now...if they can't deliver the cue straight, because of that "flaw", then it needs to be addressed. One thing I saw all three days was a LOT of pendulum stroke shots by players on both teams.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

BasementDweller said:
I too noticed that Sky has a bit of a chicken wing but he does appear to stay down nicely on the ball and he has a nice smooth cueing action. I would think those two are more important than the elbow angle.
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First off, I am VERY PROUD of the effort of the USA Mosconi Cup Team. They don't have to hang their heads down as they should have and did in the past couple of years. Quality effort and team camaraderie was in full swing for the American team. They made me feel good about our team.

On one hand, I think I understand where you are coming from, but I have to disagree with you as much as I hate to admit it:

The better team won today. It wasn't about luck, although just like in any match you can mention how lucky Europe was at times. But you're right, this event is about who had the better fundamentals. Better fundamentals equates to better play.

I noticed that the American players for most of the tournament, generally shot the cue ball harder than the European players.

The European players broke a little better but kicked a LOT better especially in the early days of the event. And what about that last match, you could say it was luck to kick that 2 ball in but I won't.

An exceptional player and I were discussing the Mosconi Cup while it was going on and he mentioned that the European players have better pace and I agree with him on this point.

Our guys seem too eager to get the rack completed. (Pace)

Anyway, I like that our team never quit trying. We need less adrenaline and more precision in everything we do and we need to shoot softer and stay on the right side of the ball. Simple eh? Not really.

The Mosconi Cup is about drama and excitement. It is a made for television production. The European players understand this and we need to also, if we want to win that cup back.

JoeyA



BasementDweller said:
The Mosconi Cup is NOT about how well you can play but instead it's about how poorly you can. In other words, the Cup is more a measure of a player's B game than their A. This is why year after year after year we end up short of the finish line. When it comes to measuring how poorly a player is capable of performing it is all about their fundamentals.

Up and down the line, year after year, the European team consists of players whose fundamentals prevent them from falling apart. Meanwhile, the U.S. team is consistently plagued with top players who have simple but yet major fundamental issues. It's hard to argue against Shane Van Boening's label as the best U.S. player. It's also hard to argue against him having significant mechanical issues that finally get the best of him every year during the Mosconi Cup. His long and hitchy stroke always seems to let him down at the worst time. He has too much stroke for the lightening fast conditions that are always present during the Mosconi Cup. This coupled with his poor transition from his backstroke to his forward one, causes him to consistently overrun position on these lightening fast tables.

I realize Shane's in a unique position because his A game is as good if not better than anybody in the world and it's helped him win many major titles, so simplifying his stroke mechanics is probably not an idea that he would even entertain but if he doesn't do something -- he will continue to get the results at the Mosconi Cup that does each and every year.

Mike Dechaine is in a similar position. This past year he's won his share of events and he has solidified his position as the 2nd best player in the U.S. BUT the guy has NEVER been still while shooting. He rises up on nearly each and every shot and he always has. He gets away with this when everything is going his way and he's feeling nice and comfortable at the table, but when things get tense this movement gets the best of him and all of a sudden his B game isn't good enough to get across the finish line.

If Dechaine really is the 2nd best player in the U.S. it will not be for long because Justin Bergman doesn't have any glaring fundamental issues like these two players have. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Justin rise up to become the U.S.'s top player in the near future.

There's another player out there that has a very formidable B game and that's Johnny Archer. I will readily admit that both Shane and Dechaine are favorites against Johnny in a comfortable setting such as a long race tournament match or a gambling session but that's not what the Mosconi Cup is. Johnny has a game that holds up under pressure and his Mosconi Cup results prove it. For this reason alone I think he should have found his way onto this team but I realize I'm in the minority on this one.

The Mosconi Cup is not an A game showcase. It's all about the B game and we are flat out at a disadvantage because our top two players do not have world class B games and all the European players on the Mosconi Cup do.
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Scott Lee said:
OMG...FINALLY, after years of posting, you finally post something that is actually true and (gasp :eek:) relevant to the conversation! :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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OMG.... you have not stopped exaggerating & misstating matters as a form of an 'attack'.

You're so predictable. I knew you would be along.

I've never said anything 'false' & not actually true, Uulike you by implying that everything I've ever said here was not true.

My statement that you quote out of context is not inconsistent with anything that I've been saying all along for the few short years that I have been a member here & been posting.

Oh I forgot, Here's the.... :grin: That makes everything 'okay'.

PS Your stalking post to 'attack' me is NOT really relevant nor necessary to the conversation.
 
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Scott Lee said:
Chicken wing doesn't matter at all...IF the cue goes straight through the CB. Think Keith's "chicken wing" bothered his stroke? Good instructors don't try to fix what's not broken. I've had students with the cue curled in or out, who delivered the cue dead straight...and as such, I don't try to force somebody out of it. Now...if they can't deliver the cue straight, because of that "flaw", then it needs to be addressed. One thing I saw all three days was a LOT of pendulum stroke shots by players on both teams.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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Scott, check Neils Feijen's videos .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QeoMzrxU7g8#t=1473
Look at his arm is way outside of his right eye and body.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kaClHA6zlKg#t=641
And the changes now. He retooled after he was ALREADY A WORLD CLASS PLAYER.
I saw him in Las Vegas against Efren in the early 2000's for the Gabriel's Open.
The one thing I noticed was his arm was way outside.
Then I saw him play for the world title in 2014. His hand and elbow were a lot closer to his ribs.
 
trob said:
Lol nothing like another ass beating in the mosconi cup to bring out the silly post by people who don't know enough to know they don't know anything lol calling svb and Johnny archer a b player lol that's a good one
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Just read this LMAO!!!.........
 

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Amateurs vs. world champions...apples and oranges. Either you can perform Mother Drill 4...or not. If you can, and you have some kind of chicken wing, it doesn't affect the outcome. I stand by what I posted, which I learned through years of experience teaching.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

JoeyInCali said:
Scott, check Neils Feijen's videos .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QeoMzrxU7g8#t=1473
Look at his arm is way outside of his right eye and body.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kaClHA6zlKg#t=641
And the changes now. He retooled after he was ALREADY A WORLD CLASS PLAYER.
I saw him in Las Vegas against Efren in the early 2000's for the Gabriel's Open.
The one thing I noticed was his arm was way outside.
Then I saw him play for the world title in 2014. His hand and elbow were a lot closer to his ribs.
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Scott Lee said:
It's not a hitch...it's a pause (connected with Shanes sense of timing and rhythym). All poolplayers pause at the back (even ones who don't think they do)...some shorter or longer than others.

Absolutely we teach ALL beginners to Set, Pause, and Finish every stroke. It's how you develop a smooth stroke and great timing.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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I think there's a difference between a pause and a hitch. To me, a hitch occurs between the backstroke and the forward one when the backstroke is so fast that a player's transition to the forward stroke isn't smooth. With Shane I know I've seen this hitch occur quite often but I guess I need to research it a bit more.

Speaking of Shane's transition...

Has anybody else noticed how much his upper arm moves during this transition? His upper arm is a bit offline right until he's transitioning to his forward stroke, then he moves it at least an inch to get it in line for the shot. This is really apparent on his break shot but it occurs on every shot.

I hope nobody misunderstands me -- Shane is a phenomenal player and one that I root for. I just think his stroke mechanics are much more complicated than most, if not all of the European players.
 
JoeyA said:
First off, I am VERY PROUD of the effort of the USA Mosconi Cup Team. They don't have to hang their heads down as they should have and did in the past couple of years. Quality effort and team camaraderie was in full swing for the American team. They made me feel good about our team.

On one hand, I think I understand where you are coming from, but I have to disagree with you as much as I hate to admit it:

The better team won today. It wasn't about luck, although just like in any match you can mention how lucky Europe was at times. But you're right, this event is about who had the better fundamentals. Better fundamentals equates to better play.

I noticed that the American players for most of the tournament, generally shot the cue ball harder than the European players.

The European players broke a little better but kicked a LOT better especially in the early days of the event. And what about that last match, you could say it was luck to kick that 2 ball in but I won't.

An exceptional player and I were discussing the Mosconi Cup while it was going on and he mentioned that the European players have better pace and I agree with him on this point.

Our guys seem too eager to get the rack completed. (Pace)

Anyway, I like that our team never quit trying. We need less adrenaline and more precision in everything we do and we need to shoot softer and stay on the right side of the ball. Simple eh? Not really.

The Mosconi Cup is about drama and excitement. It is a made for television production. The European players understand this and we need to also, if we want to win that cup back.

JoeyA
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Nice post but I'm a bit confused as to what our disagreement is.:confused:
 
I know what you're talking about. We call it "jerking" the cue, and it can be on the backswing or the forward stroke (or potentially both). It is probably the MOST prominent stroke flaw that causes some kind of miss. The key to a smooth transition (from backward to forward for the newbies) is starting from a static stopped position, with a controlled accelerated forward swing. How long someone stays in that "stopped" position (I call it Red Light/Green Light) can be very personal. Most people backswing too fast. Sometimes the one's trying to stop on the back, on purpose, tend to 'grab' the cue and jerk it forward. SPF training will correct either one of these stroke flaws (along with a host of other routine errors). I would never classify Shane's backswing as a jerk.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

BasementDweller said:
I think there's a difference between a pause and a hitch. To me, a hitch occurs between the backstroke and the forward one when the backstroke is so fast that a player's transition to the forward stroke isn't smooth. With Shane I know I've seen this hitch occur quite often but I guess I need to research it a bit more.

Speaking of Shane's transition...

Has anybody else noticed how much his upper arm moves during this transition? His upper arm is a bit offline right until he's transitioning to his forward stroke, then he moves it at least an inch to get it in line for the shot. This is really apparent on his break shot but it occurs on every shot.

I hope nobody misunderstands me -- Shane is a phenomenal player and one that I root for. I just think his stroke mechanics are much more complicated than most, if not all of the European players.
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I agree with OP 95%.
I play nowadays just for fun basically... but i train still like i´m gonna enter competitions and last two years I only practice making my game more solid every game..
I was practicing A TON fundamental stuff earlier my life but after i gave it up my game went up.
I went to zero fundamental training and switched to result based training.. Only what I really think was fundamental was I changed my way of aim to most simplest way i can think and stayed with it. Or better words could be I put all my aiming tricks together to get one line where i then lock on. After there is zero hesitation - stroke normally stays also straight.
Now I noticed I need to go little bit back for fundamentals again because they start to be weakest part now..

So I actually believe their "Aim" is breaking when there is unfamiliar circumstances and that reflects to their fundamentals.

P.s my post seem little bit confusing even for mee when i read it now.. But i stick with it :D
 
BasementDweller said:
That's an interesting take on Shane's game and you may be on to something. Shooting at flyers just because you know you can outrun it sounds like bad idea to me. This could also be part of his problem transitioning to this short race format. Something tells me a player like Darren Appleton would give each and every rack the same level of respect, regardless of the tournament he is playing in.

What I'm seeing on the screen -- tells me this isn't just a matter of shot selection. There's not a player in the world that won't pick the wrong shot on occasion if they are continually out of line. That's what I'm seeing with Shane. Yeah, he has probably picked the wrong shot a few times but that's what happens when you have to keep picking a shot to begin with in 9 ball. When good players are playing well -- they don't have to pick any shots at all.
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I don't know if it's fundamentals or shot selection or defensive play or something else. But yours is the first explanation that makes any sense to me of why the Euros beat the Americans all the time in this format: The Euro's worst game is better than the American's worst game, and that's what matters in short-race tournaments. The pressure is on, you're nervous, you haven't practiced on this table, and now your first shot is a kick. How you handle that determines how you'll fare in the Mosconi Cup.

In long-race one-on-one matches, which seem to have become the epitome of American pool, it's your BEST game that really counts - your ability to run 6-packs. That doesn't mean nearly as much in the Mosconi Cup.
 
BRussell said:
I don't know if it's fundamentals or shot selection or defensive play or something else. But yours is the first explanation that makes any sense to me of why the Euros beat the Americans all the time in this format: The Euro's worst game is better than the American's worst game, and that's what matters in short-race tournaments. The pressure is on, you're nervous, you haven't practiced on this table, and now your first shot is a kick. How you handle that determines how you'll fare in the Mosconi Cup.

In long-race one-on-one matches, which seem to have become the epitome of American pool, it's your BEST game that really counts - your ability to run 6-packs. That doesn't mean nearly as much in the Mosconi Cup.
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That sums it up perfectly!

End of Thread.
 
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