The "new" 9-ball: Changing the game to reflect the new equipment

[cubc]

I look at the 'years to kick well' comment as in well being as good and consistent as efren reyes at kicking. Alot of that has to do with adapting to weather conditions and how the rails play from table to table too though. There's a lot involved.

 

[John Barton]

so you think its just as easy to kick as it is to jump???

Southpaw

It's easier to kick. I can take a person that has NEVER played pool before and teach them the diamond system and how to hit a ball hard enough to get it around the table and have them kicking in a few minutes. I have seen Tom Rossman making kicking geniuses out of C-players in ten minutes.

You don't believe me? Call Mark Smith, the owner of Beezer's Billiards in Russelville Arkansas then and ASK him about Rossman's visit. Plus I have seen Tom in action plenty more than that.

Kicking requires no special stroke, no special cue, only knowledge. And practice to learn the nuance.

Jumping requires a certain stroke technique, a special cue to get the full range of jump shots available, lot's of practice to be consistent at, and knowledge. Knowledge of which stroke to apply, which cloth and balls are better or worse for jumping, which slates are better what your range is and so on.

We can take any complete newbie and I will have them kicking before you have yours jumping. By jumping I mean successfully completing ten jump shots of increasing complexity as I will have my student completing ten kick shots of increasing complexity.

I have never had to teach someone to stroke before teaching them to kick. I have had to correct people's stroke all the time when teaching them to jump - I even correct good players who already know how to jump and make them better.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I can understand that. Kind of sounds like some people are really resistant to change, as I am in many circumstances. This, however, isn't one of them.

I play an old timer some straight pool from time to time. He's in his 80s. In his day, he was at least an 80 ball runner, if not more. He's very humble, doesn't brag about his skill, which until today is quite formidable.

However, sometimes when we're in a game of 14.1, I'll pull out the jump cue, make a ball, and continue my run. He always compliments me on those shots. It's not about age Jude, it's about skill.

Um, I never said anything about "age", Flex.


Using a jump cue in 14.1 is considered VERY taboo by most and I'll explain to you why - Most straight pool players will play defense without the jump-cue rule in mind and if you've put yourself in that situation, your turn at the table should end.

I asked about how long you've been playing because I think one's vision of perfect pool dictates how they approach the game. Many 14.1 players and players who have been around the game a long time have a different vision of perfect pool. It simply does not involve hopping.

I mean, could you imagine how people would feel if Nike came out with sneakers that made you jump 50% more and suddenly EVERYBODY could slam-dunk? I'm certain a few taller people would be a little upset.

 

[Southpaw]

It's easier to kick. I can take a person that has NEVER played pool before and teach them the diamond system and how to hit a ball hard enough to get it around the table and have them kicking in a few minutes. I have seen Tom Rossman making kicking geniuses out of C-players in ten minutes.

You don't believe me? Call Mark Smith, the owner of Beezer's Billiards in Russelville Arkansas then and ASK him about Rossman's visit. Plus I have seen Tom in action plenty more than that.

Kicking requires no special stroke, no special cue, only knowledge. And practice to learn the nuance.

Jumping requires a certain stroke technique, a special cue to get the full range of jump shots available, lot's of practice to be consistent at, and knowledge. Knowledge of which stroke to apply, which cloth and balls are better or worse for jumping, which slates are better what your range is and so on.

We can take any complete newbie and I will have them kicking before you have yours jumping. By jumping I mean successfully completing ten jump shots of increasing complexity as I will have my student completing ten kick shots of increasing complexity.

I have never had to teach someone to stroke before teaching them to kick. I have had to correct people's stroke all the time when teaching them to jump - I even correct good players who already know how to jump and make them better.

I know jumping is allowed in todays 9 ball. I can jump with a jump cue or a full cue. To jump with a full cue requires a special stroke and technique...to use a gimmicked cue doesnt require hardly anything. And there is a big difference in kicking to just hit a ball and kicking to hit a certain side of the ball for a safety...just ask that Efren guy, he seems to do quite well kicking and not jumping.

Southpaw

 

[John Barton]

I think people missed my entire point of this topic. I know that players use jump cues. What I'd like to see is some rule changes to reflect their use. Golfers are restricted to 14 clubs in their bags. If they choose to carry a lob wedge, they need to get rid of a club to take it's place. If you choose to use a jump cue, then get rid of a breaker. Or, accept some penalties that will be enforced should you use it unsuccessfully. The fact that I need to tighten up my safety game should go hand in hand with the fact that you should only be allowed a limited number of jump shots per match. If you want to use the prop, do so at a price. Three fouls, loss of match. Declared safeties that don't allow the jump cue to be used on the next shot. I'm merely offering a counterview for people that don't like the jump cue. I'm not alone. There are a lot of us that hate it. So, make it an even playing field for those of us that don't like them.

It's already an even playing field. You are the one handicapping yourself. Besides that you are fortunate to live in a place that caters to your personal dislike so why are you griping? Why impose your world view on everyone else?

Why not just simply go to rules that forbid safeties. You must make a ball on your turn or give up ball in hand. Then you don't have to worry about cutting off the kicking angles or what the game was designed for. it'll be a pure runout offensive duel. Well, except for when the "better" players just cluster up balls to prevent the weaker players from running out.

Your rules are stupid Shawn. I have had enough of this nonsense. You are in the vast minority on this one so just stay home in no jump land.

 

[elite1206]

I know jumping is allowed in todays 9 ball. I can jump with a jump cue or a full cue. To jump with a full cue requires a special stroke and technique...to use a gimmicked cue doesnt require hardly anything. And there is a big difference in kicking to just hit a ball and kicking to hit a certain side of the ball for a safety...just ask that Efren guy, he seems to do quite well kicking and not jumping.

Southpaw

I have to agree that there is a difference in kicking to just hit a ball and kicking to hit a certain side of theball, similarly there is also a big difference in jumping to just hit a ball and jumping to hit a certain side of the ball with a certain amount of backspin and control.

They are equally hard to master. Period.

 

[Icon of Sin]

I know jumping is allowed in todays 9 ball. I can jump with a jump cue or a full cue. To jump with a full cue requires a special stroke and technique...to use a gimmicked cue doesnt require hardly anything. And there is a big difference in kicking to just hit a ball and kicking to hit a certain side of the ball for a safety...just ask that Efren guy, he seems to do quite well kicking and not jumping.

Southpaw

Yeah, and those Archer, Deuel, Bustamante, Pagulayan, Chao, Hohmann etc etc... guys seem to do OK jumping.

 

[Southpaw]

I have to agree that there is a difference in kicking to just hit a ball and kicking to hit a certain side of theball, similarly there is also a big difference in jumping to just hit a ball and jumping to hit a certain side of the ball with a certain amount of backspin and control.

They are equally hard to master. Period.

With a full cue yes...with a gimmicked cue...not even close to equal. jmo.

Southpaw

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I guess that's another thing I DON'T get Shawn - we all know - including you - that almost any jump shot is low percentage no matter how good you are. Why do you begrudge people who make a low percentage shot once in a while? You must be a real joy to play with.

Man, you are obtuse. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH JUMP SHOTS. Use a "real cue", i.e. the cue you play with, to do it.

 

[Flex]

Um, I never said anything about "age", Flex.


Using a jump cue in 14.1 is considered VERY taboo by most and I'll explain to you why - Most straight pool players will play defense without the jump-cue rule in mind and if you've put yourself in that situation, your turn at the table should end.

I asked about how long you've been playing because I think one's vision of perfect pool dictates how they approach the game. Many 14.1 players and players who have been around the game a long time have a different vision of perfect pool. It simply does not involve hopping.

I mean, could you imagine how people would feel if Nike came out with sneakers that made you jump 50% more and suddenly EVERYBODY could slam-dunk? I'm certain a few taller people would be a little upset.

I mentioned the old timer's age to counteract your attempt at one-upmanship because you've been playing seriously a lot longer than I have. Heck, he's been playing for well over 65 years. Obviously, his take on pure pool is different from yours. Difference of opinion. Is yours better than his? Maybe, but it's still just an opinion. It's explainable, and defensible, of course. More power to you. I just don't agree with you.

I'm glad you're not the rule maker, and hope you never are, as our worldviews on so many things are really at odds.

Peace!

Flex

 

[John Barton]

John, I never brought up his age. I asked how long he's been playing and I actually believe it DOES have something to do with it. Flex has basically ridiculed everyone who has said anything negative about jump cues and I believe he simply just doesn't understand why we feel the way we do.

well I come from your era and I don't understand why you feel the way you do. I hope that you will take my experience into consideration when I give my perspective on this topic, my experience as a player, and as a person who has spent many years and thousands of hours teaching people to jump through the job of selling them jump cues.

I have met MANY MANY MANY players from all eras and sold a lot of jump cues to those folks. I can tell you that there are many people with long playing experiences who love the jump cue. People who grew up playing straight pool and two foul nine ball.

I am not sticking up for Flex but instead just want to make sure that you know that age or experience doesn't really have anything to do with it, at least in my experience.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Man, you are obtuse. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH JUMP SHOTS. Use a "real cue", i.e. the cue you play with, to do it.

You are Narrow minded.

The game has changed. You have adapted to that change and now for some reason no longer believes in it (probably because someone shit a ball in on you on what you thought was a good safe).

Jump cues are now pool, anyone who doesnt like it has to deal with it. They are common and so is the jump shot. Just because you choose to use a full cue or kick doesnt mean anything to the opponent except they dont have to play as strong of a safety as you do. There is no unfair advantage because you have that option as well but choose not to use it.

Deal with it and stop whining...

 

[Icon of Sin]

I dont think age or time playing or era the player came from has anything to do with it. My father is 58 and plays my speed and uses a jump cue as well.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

It's already an even playing field. You are the one handicapping yourself. Besides that you are fortunate to live in a place that caters to your personal dislike so why are you griping? Why impose your world view on everyone else?

Why not just simply go to rules that forbid safeties. You must make a ball on your turn or give up ball in hand. Then you don't have to worry about cutting off the kicking angles or what the game was designed for. it'll be a pure runout offensive duel. Well, except for when the "better" players just cluster up balls to prevent the weaker players from running out.

Your rules are stupid Shawn. I have had enough of this nonsense. You are in the vast minority on this one so just stay home in no jump land.

You argue like my wife.................."if jump cues aren't allowed, then forbid safeties". You crack me up. Pool has always been played with safeties. The jump cue wasn't allowed until the 80s.

Following your logic, if jump cues are allowed, let's make it any jump cue. No restrictions on length or weight. Bring back the jump rod. It's good for the game, and obviously there's skill to using the jump rod, the same as using the Bunjee. Let the best technologist win.

 

[John Barton]

Tell ya what, since you seem to think kicking and jumping both take the same knowledge and skill, lets you and I play a set of 9 ball. I can only jump balls and you can only kick at balls when we are hooked. Then we will see if you think they are the same.

Southpaw

I don't know what this will prove but you have a bet. As soon as we are within reasonable driving distance I want to make this game with you.

 

[Icon of Sin]

You argue like my wife.................."if jump cues aren't allowed, then forbid safeties". You crack me up. Pool has always been played with safeties. The jump cue wasn't allowed until the 80s.

Following your logic, if jump cues are allowed, let's make it any jump cue. No restrictions on length or weight. Bring back the jump rod. It's good for the game, and obviously there's skill to using the jump rod, the same as using the Bunjee. Let the best technologist win.

You are talking about changing the rules. None of us in this thread of the power to do that. Just deal with it. That's all you can do. Whining about it here isnt going to change anything. Adapt or get left behind.

 

[Southpaw]

I don't know what this will prove but you have a bet. As soon as we are within reasonable driving distance I want to make this game with you.

Ok...and I can use a gimmicked jump cue... correct?

Southpaw

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I mentioned the old timer's age to counteract your attempt at one-upmanship because you've been playing seriously a lot longer than I have. Heck, he's been playing for well over 65 years. Obviously, his take on pure pool is different from yours. Difference of opinion. Is yours better than his? Maybe, but it's still just an opinion. It's explainable, and defensible, of course. More power to you. I just don't agree with you.

I'm glad you're not the rule maker, and hope you never are, as our worldviews on so many things are really at odds.

Peace!

Flex

Okay, help me out here - you're giving me the opinion of your buddy at the poolroom, who is 80 years old, who isn't online right now, who has only said to you "nice shot" regarding your jump cue use.

Regarding our difference on world views. I'm sorry but it's not by goal in life to be agreeable. In pool, my goal is to beat everyone put infront of me and I'm going to be for every rule that helps me and against every rule that hurts me. You want someone who sees the world eye-to-eye with you, you've come to the wrong type of forum. Check out eharmony or something.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Ok...and I can use a gimmicked jump cue... correct?

Southpaw

John will try to sell you one of his LOL (sorry, had to do it )

 

[John Barton]

Man, you are obtuse. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH JUMP SHOTS. Use a "real cue", i.e. the cue you play with, to do it.

Fine since you are equally dense. Let's have a jump contest you and I - you get to use a Meucci Sneaky pete and I will use my Tim Scruggs sneaky, both "real cues" and we will see just which of us does better.

I predict that the jumping skill you worked so hard on will not be of much help when you try to do it with a cue not suited to the task. I on the other hand will have a cue that is better suited to the task and will easily outjump you.

Does this mean that I am better than you with my "real cue". If we were to switch cues then the results would be reversed and I would be the one struggling to clear a ball while you would like a superstar.

Get with the program Shawn - JUMP CUES LEVEL THE FIELD FOR EVERYONE. Everyone has access to them, they all work the same, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE is - ding ding ding SKILL LEVEL OF THE USER.

Got it?