The "new" 9-ball: Changing the game to reflect the new equipment

This thred an absolute monster, I don't even know where to begin. You guys lost me after page 3.

My vote is for Jump cues, as long as their legal in the game they should be used. At the present time there is no Jump Cue that I know of that truly gives anyone and unfair advantage. Getting over an obstructing ball, is one thing actually making the shot is another.

Black Cat :cool:
 
Black Cat 5791 said:
This thred an absolute monster, I don't even know where to begin. You guys lost me after page 3.

My vote is for Jump cues, as long as their legal in the game they should be used. At the present time there is no Jump Cue that I know of that truly gives anyone and unfair advantage. Getting over an obstructing ball, is one thing actually making the shot is another.

Black Cat :cool:
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It's not about making or not making the ball that is the point. It's about giving or not giving up ball in hand. Good safeties should be rewarded. If you can't kick out of it, work on your kicking. It's a much better skill to work on than the jump. Players with poor kicking skills are now able to reduce their BIH fouls drastically by learning "basic" jumping skills. And, "basic" jumping skills that take 30 minutes to learn can reduce their foul count by at least 50%. Imagine getting half as many BIH fouls as you used to.

Are there any stats in regards to this since the jump cue was allowed into the game?
 
Flex said:
Thanks, Steve, for your usual, well thought out comments.

Flex
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Thank you for yours as well, Flex. And you also used the "would that all" line, which is so damned elegant but I can never find the right way to use. So kudos on that as well. :)

- Steve
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Take my challenge and see how good your kicking is versus your jumping. I'm being honest. Let me draw up 10 table scenarios where you kick at the ball and jump at the ball. Grade yourself and come back with the numbers.

As far as the jump cue, I make the odd cue, so I have them around. I only ever break them out for events that allow them, when I decide to play in these events. What I laugh about is this "crying" you're hearing me doing. I elected to post some rule changes to accomodate those of us that would prefer pool be played without the gimmick stick. Just because I make them and have been known to use one, doesn't make them proper for the game. It makes me the Anti-Barton. I could profit from making them, but usually choose to bypass that particular business. I, personally, hate the jump cue. Texas Express rules have made a place for the jump cue, according to John. The purpose of the TE rules was to speed up the game. Instead of giving out ball in hand on a good safety now, which would usually result in loss of rack, we now allow the jump cue to be used. Seems like it has counteracted the TE rules. Now the game is longer due to less ball in hand fouls, and we no longer reward good safeties, only flawless ones. Seems like you want to raise the bar on safety play, but lower it in regards to kicking skills. What a shame.
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Hi Shawn,

My kicking skills are fine and I will be more than happy to shoot any kick shots and jump shots you would like me to and post results. I rarely use my jump cue (only when I cannot kick at a ball). I am probably better at kicking than jumping.
I want to raise the bar on all play - whether it is safety play, kick play, break play, jump play etc....
As I said in post #3 of this thread - I don't have a problem with the rules that you proposed and if those were the rules of a tourney - I would have no problem playing in it.
This is exactly what I said "By the way, your idea is a good one and if those were the rules of a particular tournament - I would have no problem playing by them."
I am not here to argue with you but I have enjoyed this converstation and topic very much. Feel free to send me the diagrams of the shots (with parameters) and I will post my results. Let me know if you need my email address or anything.

Thanks,

BVal
 
BVal said:
Hi Shawn,

My kicking skills are fine and I will be more than happy to shoot any kick shots and jump shots you would like me to and post results. I rarely use my jump cue (only when I cannot kick at a ball). I am probably better at kicking than jumping.
I want to raise the bar on all play - whether it is safety play, kick play, break play, jump play etc....
As I said in post #3 of this thread - I don't have a problem with the rules that you proposed and if those were the rules of a tourney - I would have no problem playing in it.
This is exactly what I said "By the way, your idea is a good one and if those were the rules of a particular tournament - I would have no problem playing by them."
I am not here to argue with you but I have enjoyed this converstation and topic very much. Feel free to send me the diagrams of the shots (with parameters) and I will post my results. Let me know if you need my email address or anything.

Thanks,

BVal
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Thanks for being the first guinea pig in my experiment! Let me get the shots figured out on my table today, and I will post them on here as a new thread. Post your results. I'm going to rank them as easy, medium and hard. Let's see how the board does!
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Thanks for being the first guinea pig in my experiment! Let me get the shots figured out on my table today, and I will post them on here as a new thread. Post your results. I'm going to rank them as easy, medium and hard. Let's see how the board does!
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I prefer to be called experimentor :D I look forward to the new post.

BVal
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
I'd go with the proposition shots instead of the race. You could prove you point, but still lose the money, which makes no sense. I'd get someone to draw up shots and shoot them. Minimum of 5" from cueball to any blocker. You can position the other balls anywhere you want, other than in the direct line between the blocker ball and the object ball. One ball only between cueball and target ball. You can block rail targets off, but nothing directly in the way of the line of the kick either.
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You could draw up some impartial shots huh? Those shots right there are partial and biased. Those are a cakewalk to jump. A lot of safes leave your cueball or the object tied up against a blocking ball. A lot of safes have multiple balls in the path after the blocking ball.

This is exactly why you have to play some jump shots and some kick shots. Like I said before, if you planned out better safes then it would take the jump shot out of the equation, but if the best you can do is 5 inches away or more from a blocking ball with nothing else in the path to the object ball, then you deserve to have your safety jumped.

Please tell me you dont call this a good safety? Its average at best.

This is why your setup shot challenge is not the way to do it and it needs to be judged in regular games. You are already being impartial with all those stupid ****ing rules you suggested. Way more then tht is taken into account in a game of 9-ball safety play, well at least by me and most players... apparently not by you...
 
Will it be 10 shots total? 10 shots that have the realistic option of jumping and/or kicking at?

BVal
 
I am setting up 10 realistic shots that can be kicked at or jumped at. I don't think Icon of Sin understood the challenges. I am going to set up some realistic safeties that could come up in games, not retarded challenge shots. I want to see the percentages of legal hits with jump cues versus kick shots. Someone here said they are equally difficult, kicking and jumping. I'm looking to see some empirical evidence on this very fact. We'll see the scores coming back and determine how the scores look on legal hits - jump vs kick.
 
I would make the jumps just as hard as the kicks in terms of number of obstructions between the cueball and the object ball. It doesn't get any fairer than that, in terms of testing. I can tell you won't participate, because you don't want to find out that jumping is easier than kicking.
 
Icon of Sin said:
You could draw up some impartial shots huh? Those shots right there are partial and biased. Those are a cakewalk to jump. A lot of safes leave your cueball or the object tied up against a blocking ball. A lot of safes have multiple balls in the path after the blocking ball.

This is exactly why you have to play some jump shots and some kick shots. Like I said before, if you planned out better safes then it would take the jump shot out of the equation, but if the best you can do is 5 inches away or more from a blocking ball with nothing else in the path to the object ball, then you deserve to have your safety jumped.

Please tell me you dont call this a good safety? Its average at best.

This is why your setup shot challenge is not the way to do it and it needs to be judged in regular games. You are already being impartial with all those stupid ****ing rules you suggested. Way more then tht is taken into account in a game of 9-ball safety play, well at least by me and most players... apparently not by you...
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The test shots have to be of a nature that allow you to both jump and kick at them. I want to see the number of successful hits with both. Wait until you see the shots before you pass judgment.
 
So I will set up the same shots twice. Kick at it once and jump at it once. Right?

BVal
 
BVal said:
So I will set up the same shots twice. Kick at it once and jump at it once. Right?

BVal
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Yep. The kicks may require you to go multiple rails. You can figure out your own path. I will set up 9ball scenarios where you are hooked. I want to simulate the game with the jump cue and without the jump cue, and the number of times it took to complete the shots. I wouldn't mind seeing the scores per shot. This way, we can see which ones would be considered good safeties, and which are ducks.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Yep. The kicks may require you to go multiple rails. You can figure out your own path. I will set up 9ball scenarios where you are hooked. I want to simulate the game with the jump cue and without the jump cue, and the number of times it took to complete the shots. I wouldn't mind seeing the scores per shot. This way, we can see which ones would be considered good safeties, and which are ducks.
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I will give it a whirl - no problem.
 
I very rarely use my jump cue, I generally kick at I would say 98% of all my shots when I'm faced with a good safety having been applied. With the type of safeties that I generally am faced with my contact percentage is pretty high.

However there are those occasions when I have a very high percentage chance of making a ball with a jump cue. So with that being the case I don't want to be penalized by not being able to use a jump cue if I wanted to.

A jump cues does not make it automatic it still requires skill to accurately clear the ball and also make the shot. I couldn't tell you how many times I have elected to go with the jump shot make the ball and the cue ball goes off the table. So with that being said even if a person or player does have a jump cue in their bag unless they practice with it on a regular basis their chance of making the shot and getting position for the next shot is not likely.

In my opinion when jump cues are allowed it only makes you play your safeties just that much more accurately.

Black Cat :cool:
 
To be honest, the thing I like most about nine ball is that it places more of a premium on billiard knowledge than any other game played on a pool table. Multi-rail position play and multi-rail kicking are, at least for me, fascinating aspects of the game. Jump shots, though certainly requiring skill, rob the game of nine ball of some of its most natural beauty.

I've been going to pro pool events for 31 years, and there's not a single jump shot that I consider particularly memorable. Contrastingly, I remember many a kick shot.
 
sjm said:
To be honest, the thing I like most about nine ball is that it places more of a premium on billiard knowledge than any other game played on a pool table. Multi-rail position play and multi-rail kicking are, at least for me, fascinating aspects of the game. Jump shots, though certainly requiring skill, rob the game of nine ball of some of its most natural beauty.

I've been going to pro pool events for 31 years, and there's not a single jump shot that I consider particularly memorable. Contrastingly, I remember many a kick shot.
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Well stated. The rules should simply ban the jump shot and the jump cue would follow naturally. However, because the rules allow for situations where unintended safeties can carry severe punishments I would like to see the game of nine ball migrate to call shot and call safety. Just like straight pool, you are either calling a shot or calling a safety. If you fail to call a safety and you prevent your opponent from having a direct path to the object ball then it is ball in hand for the opponent. This would remove the neccessity to have an alternative to kicking to get out of snookered positions.

I also think jump shots do rob the game of it's beauty. I think that jump shots range from clumsy and awkward to highly skilled precision shots but I would prefer not to see them in the game at all. Many people labor under physical impediments that prevent them from executing these shots and billiards should remain a game that is truly accessible to all without the frustration of having to get into awkward physical positions in order to escape the high penalty of not contacting the object ball.

That said however, the debate only rages in the USA. In Europe and Asia jump cues are considered a natural part of the game and jump shots are as appreciated as kick shots. Many poolrooms have community jump cues that are available to anyone the same as house cues are and average players are proficient enough commensurate with their skill level that no one takes the slightest notice when they jump a ball. In those places no one sneers or looks down on the player who just uses another skill that the game demands. In those places the game is celebrated for all it's aspects including the ability to master 3-dimensional space.

John Barton
 
John Barton said:
Well stated. The rules should simply ban the jump shot and the jump cue would follow naturally. However, because the rules allow for situations where unintended safeties can carry severe punishments I would like to see the game of nine ball migrate to call shot and call safety. Just like straight pool, you are either calling a shot or calling a safety. If you fail to call a safety and you prevent your opponent from having a direct path to the object ball then it is ball in hand for the opponent. This would remove the neccessity to have an alternative to kicking to get out of snookered positions.

I also think jump shots do rob the game of it's beauty. I think that jump shots range from clumsy and awkward to highly skilled precision shots but I would prefer not to see them in the game at all. Many people labor under physical impediments that prevent them from executing these shots and billiards should remain a game that is truly accessible to all without the frustration of having to get into awkward physical positions in order to escape the high penalty of not contacting the object ball.

That said however, the debate only rages in the USA. In Europe and Asia jump cues are considered a natural part of the game and jump shots are as appreciated as kick shots. Many poolrooms have community jump cues that are available to anyone the same as house cues are and average players are proficient enough commensurate with their skill level that no one takes the slightest notice when they jump a ball. In those places no one sneers or looks down on the player who just uses another skill that the game demands. In those places the game is celebrated for all it's aspects including the ability to master 3-dimensional space.

John Barton
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John, it's always a pleasure debating this topic with you. I feel strongly that over the years we've come closer to the same perspective on the matter.

After all is said and done, there's no correct answer. We (meaning all pool players) are each captivated by different elements of the game, and our views tend to reflect our own preferences.

Hope you're well, John.
 
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