the pocket plays bigger when using a low slow stop shot

gazman100

gazman100

Brunswick Gold Crowns - Qld Australia
Silver Member
the pocket plays bigger when using a low slow stop shot

I was watching a you tube video with Tor Lowry interviewing Mark Wilson.
Around the 29 min mark, Mark talks about hitting a stop shot at the very bottom of the cue ball to reduce the speed needed to make a stop shot.
It is mentioned that the "pocket plays bigger" 'way bigger" by doing this technique.
Tor understood what Mark was saying however I've done a lot of internet searching on this technique and I'm unable to find any info on it as it would be interesting.
If any one can share some light on this technique It would be much appreciated.
Apparently it is a technique that Efren Reyes uses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DYZ_NVpeXc
Cheers:smile:
 
I can't watch Videos on Youtube here at work, but I think you might be referring to this technique:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stun.html

This is what Dr.Dave says: With a stun shot, the CB must be struck below center. The bottom spin will wear off (this is called drag) on the way to the OB. The farther the CB is from the OB, the lower and/or faster you need to strike the CB to prevent the CB from losing the bottom spin and starting to developing forward roll before hitting the OB

Hope this helps!
 
I think they were just talking about the fact that a slow-moving OB has a better chance of falling in than a fast-moving OB if they aren't hit center pocket, i.e., there is more margin for error on the slower shot.

So Mark is testing to see how slowly the players can hit a particular straight-in stop shot (CB 2 diamonds from one short rail and OB 2 diamonds from the other short rail), and you have to hit extremely low on the CB to accomplish that. Efren apparently could do a stop shot from that distance at a real slow speed (relative to many other players).
 
This was one of the things Stan covered in our last lesson ... Grip, stroke and technique for executing it.
 
gazman100 said:
the pocket plays bigger when using a low slow stop shot
I've done a lot of internet searching on this technique and I'm unable to find any info on it as it would be interesting.
If any one can share some light on this technique It would be much appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DYZ_NVpeXc
Cheers:smile:
Click to expand...

aka: A drag shot... hitting the CB low with just enough speed so there's no spin when it reaches the OB.
Stop shots can be hit hard and still kill the CB. Drag shots have lower speeds so the OB can be hit softer.
I'd say it's somewhat like a finesse shot instead of a power shot. A slower OB has less chance of jawing.
 
Ralph Kramden said:
aka: A drag shot... hitting the CB low with just enough speed so there's no spin when it reaches the OB.
Stop shots can be hit hard and still kill the CB. Drag shots have lower speeds so the OB can be hit softer.
I'd say it's somewhat like a finesse shot instead of a power shot. A slower OB has less chance of jawing.
Click to expand...

For the love of me, I can't shoot drag shots unless I let the cue slide in the grip hand.
Just let it slide a little.
 
My aiming was poor until I started using Pro-One and I used to hit everything slow to make the pocket play as large as possible. The trick to low and slow is follow through. Exaggerate it at first, cue lower than you think possible and really follow through.
 
Its a technique everyone should have. There are times you need the CB to travel along the tangent line only a few inches to a foot and hitting half a tip below centre and firm so the CB sliding at impact requires too much speed and the CB will travel too far along the tangent line.

It requires practice at all distances to gain an understanding and feel for how hard you need to hit certain shots, especially at medium to long distances to get the CB sliding at impact. With regards to making the pocket bigger I can only assume its because you are stroking slower so will be more accurate with where you hit the CB. Also with how the OB enters the pocket - it will usually enter slower hitting the CB using a severe drag stun shot rather than a firm centre ball stun shot so there is more margin for error with the ball dropping in.

I hit the majority of stun shots slow where I can, especially at larger cut angles so the CB doesn't travel too far after contacting the OB. So on a lot of shots at distance it looks like I'm hitting extreme draw by my tip placement when feathering.
 
Just because the pocket may play bigger when the object ball approaches it more slowly -- it doesn't necessarily mean that your chances of making the ball will increase just because you are hitting it softer. Otherwise, all the pros would shoot this way.

The shot that Mark and Tor were talking about is really more of a cueing test to see how pure your stroke is – and an interesting one at that.

Most pros would rather shoot the ball firmly if given the choice and I think I know why that is. When you hit the ball soft you are giving your stroke just a bit more time to go offline on you. I think the increased chance of having your cue go offline on you nullifies the potential benefits you may get from having the object ball rolling into the pocket. For this reason, if given the choice I would much rather hit the ball firm.
 
BasementDweller said:
Just because the pocket may play bigger when the object ball approaches it more slowly -- it doesn't necessarily mean that your chances of making the ball will increase just because you are hitting it softer. Otherwise, all the pros would shoot this way.

The shot that Mark and Tor were talking about is really more of a cueing test to see how pure your stroke is – and an interesting one at that.

Most pros would rather shoot the ball firmly if given the choice and I think I know why that is. When you hit the ball soft you are giving your stroke just a bit more time to go offline on you. I think the increased chance of having your cue go offline on you nullifies the potential benefits you may get from having the object ball rolling into the pocket. For this reason, if given the choice I would much rather hit the ball firm.
Click to expand...

Very true. While very useful for position play at times, another problem to be aware of is that you can actually semi-masse' the cb using a draw-drag shot with inside english. At times, the cb will swerve past the original shot line. That problem is lessened with a little more speed.
 
BasementDweller said:
Just because the pocket may play bigger when the object ball approaches it more slowly -- it doesn't necessarily mean that your chances of making the ball will increase just because you are hitting it softer. Otherwise, all the pros would shoot this way.
Click to expand...

Well, no, when pockets play bigger your chances ARE better of making the shot, and no, the pros don't shoot that way all the time because often times there is the next ball you have to play position on, and the slowest stop shot you can make is usually not the most desirable for getting that position. It is also less accurate hitting that low when it isn't necessary.

I do agree with you that they were talking about gauging ability in the video. If you can get a slower stop shot, you are increasing your cue ball control. If you can get your stop shot speed down to 7 mph on a 4 diamond shot, you are more likely to be able to send the cue ball one diamond after a half ball hit, or draw back two diamonds with accuracy.
 
Careyp74 said:
Well, no, when pockets play bigger your chances ARE better of making the shot, and no, the pros don't shoot that way all the time because often times there is the next ball you have to play position on, and the slowest stop shot you can make is usually not the most desirable for getting that position. It is also less accurate hitting that low when it isn't necessary....
Click to expand...

So do you agree with me or not?

When you say "Well, no, when pockets play bigger your chances ARE better of making the shot" you are missing my point. If there are no other variables involved then having the object ball rolling into the pocket would of course make the pocket bigger. What I'm saying is when you hit the ball softer you are adding new variables into the mix. For me, the most important one is when I shoot softer I'm giving my arm a bit more time to screw up the shot. This isn't even considering swerve and those nasty skids that can get you on those slow rolled cut shots.
 
BasementDweller said:
So do you agree with me or not?

When you say "Well, no, when pockets play bigger your chances ARE better of making the shot" you are missing my point. If there are no other variables involved then having the object ball rolling into the pocket would of course make the pocket bigger. What I'm saying is when you hit the ball softer you are adding new variables into the mix. For me, the most important one is when I shoot softer I'm giving my arm a bit more time to screw up the shot. This isn't even considering swerve and those nasty skids that can get you on those slow rolled cut shots.
Click to expand...

What is your definition of the term "big pockets" then. To me, it means that it takes balls with more margin of error. If what you say is true, that all of those factors play into it causing you to miss, the pockets wouldn't be big then, would they?

softness of the shot was not what I said was contributing to the less accuracy of the shot, it is the playing low part. That goes directly to the example in the OP, not what you were saying about shooting softer.

Remember also, when stroking low, your final stroke is faster than the cue ball speed, due to the angle you are hitting the cue ball at. Sending the stop shot four diamonds at 7 mph requires a much faster stroke than 7mph.
 
Careyp74 said:
What is your definition of the term "big pockets" then. To me, it means that it takes balls with more margin of error. If what you say is true, that all of those factors play into it causing you to miss, the pockets wouldn't be big then, would they?

softness of the shot was not what I said was contributing to the less accuracy of the shot, it is the playing low part. That goes directly to the example in the OP, not what you were saying about shooting softer.

Remember also, when stroking low, your final stroke is faster than the cue ball speed, due to the angle you are hitting the cue ball at. Sending the stop shot four diamonds at 7 mph requires a much faster stroke than 7mph.
Click to expand...

I do need to work on being a bit more precise with my language in these discussions. I even confuse myself when I reread some of my posts.

I'll take one more stab at the part in bold just so that I'm clear (at least to myself).

An object ball that is barely moving will have a greater chance of falling into the pocket than will one that is moving fast. I think this is what we all mean when we say we are making the pocket "bigger" (for the most part -- or at least for the sake of this discussion).

Now if we were shooting balls with some sort of mechanical device or robot and our only goal was pocketing the ball, then we would want to hit it as slow as possible in order to have the greatest chance of putting the ball in the hole. However, we ARE NOT mechanical devices so we all need to determine at what stroke speed we most closely resemble one. I think for most advanced players this is a firm hit. Now I can't define a "firm hit" but I know one when I see it.

So when I hear players talk about how you are always better off hitting the ball softer when given the option I sort of shake my head in disagreement. This is why.
 
BasementDweller said:
I do need to work on being a bit more precise with my language in these discussions. I even confuse myself when I reread some of my posts.

I'll take one more stab at the part in bold just so that I'm clear (at least to myself).

An object ball that is barely moving will have a greater chance of falling into the pocket than will one that is moving fast. I think this is what we all mean when we say we are making the pocket "bigger" (for the most part -- or at least for the sake of this discussion).

Now if we were shooting balls with some sort of mechanical device or robot and our only goal was pocketing the ball, then we would want to hit it as slow as possible in order to have the greatest chance of putting the ball in the hole. However, we ARE NOT mechanical devices so we all need to determine at what stroke speed we most closely resemble one. I think for most advanced players this is a firm hit. Now I can't define a "firm hit" but I know one when I see it.

So when I hear players talk about how you are always better off hitting the ball softer when given the option I sort of shake my head in disagreement. This is why.
Click to expand...

Well, you can only speak for yourself on that one, unless you have asked various pro players what their shot making percentages are for each ball speed. The only way to really know for yourself is to test yourself on each type of hit. Those other players that you are shaking your head at might have a better stroke that doesn't get all messed up when given enough time during the final stroke. If you do find that a firm hit is better for you because of this, perhaps you might want to get a coach to help work out what is happening there.
 
gazman100 said:
the pocket plays bigger when using a low slow stop shot

I was watching a you tube video with Tor Lowry interviewing Mark Wilson.
Around the 29 min mark, Mark talks about hitting a stop shot at the very bottom of the cue ball to reduce the speed needed to make a stop shot.
It is mentioned that the "pocket plays bigger" 'way bigger" by doing this technique.
Tor understood what Mark was saying however I've done a lot of internet searching on this technique and I'm unable to find any info on it as it would be interesting.
If any one can share some light on this technique It would be much appreciated.
Apparently it is a technique that Efren Reyes uses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DYZ_NVpeXc
Cheers:smile:
Click to expand...

It isn't the technique of playing a stop shot that opens up the pocket, as you might have already gathered, but to address it clearly, what was being talked about in the video is a drill for cue ball control. The slower you can make the stop shot, when you have to play a stop shot, the better your chances of making it. One thing that happens a lot in stun shots (which is what a stop shot is, head on) is the unintentional throwing of the shoulder from not stopping completely on your final back stroke. Another is the shoulder movement from the acceleration going into the stun shot. The slower you really need to play the shot, the better your accuracy will be, unless you have an issue with stroking slowly.

This can be put into a progressive drill, where you start with the two balls lined up to the pocket a diamond away from each other. See how slow you can stroke the stop shot, and when you get ten good hits, increase the distance to two diamonds, and so on. I think Tor discusses progressive drills in his videos. It is a great method for improving.
 
All Mark is doing is testing the quality of stroke through speed.

Bangers for instance have no pause in there stroke and just stroke constantly and pull the trigger at a random moment. Therefore the speed is inconsistent not only for position play but also reduces the pocket size for balls not hit center pocket.

The intermediate player shoots with some control in terms of speed but may adjust length of stroke to compensate for speed. i.e. Slower speeds shorter stroke. The problem with this is they have only one medium type stroke speed. Therefore they may suffer when faced with more stroker type shots.

A pro doesn't sacrifice stroke for speed. It's a full stroke thru the CB but the speed of acceleration is adjusted. That's why we see players that are able to hold cut shots at distance bc they are cheating the pocket on the thick side down the rail. (Slopping a shot) their ability to stroke at pocket speed allows this to happen bc they need minimal CB movement on some shots.

I think mark is just trying to identify who has a better cueing quality bc if they are playing all shots at the right speed they reducing the margin of error that pressure seems to narrow during battle. Plus they can play better position too.
 
Careyp74 said:
Well, you can only speak for yourself on that one, unless you have asked various pro players what their shot making percentages are for each ball speed. The only way to really know for yourself is to test yourself on each type of hit. Those other players that you are shaking your head at might have a better stroke that doesn't get all messed up when given enough time during the final stroke. If you do find that a firm hit is better for you because of this, perhaps you might want to get a coach to help work out what is happening there.
Click to expand...

What speed these pros choose to shoot the 9 ball with (or 10 ball when playing 10 ball) is a pretty good indicator of what speed they feel most comfortable shooting the ball. Wouldn't ya think? It's usually a pretty firm hit.

Maybe they all need some instruction and they should baby the ball a bit more.;)
 
BasementDweller said:
What speed these pros choose to shoot the 9 ball with (or 10 ball when playing 10 ball) is a pretty good indicator of what speed they feel most comfortable shooting the ball. Wouldn't ya think? It's usually a pretty firm hit.

Maybe they all need some instruction and they should baby the ball a bit more.;)
Click to expand...

Comfort and percentages are two different things. I will catch myself shooting too firmly every time I miss. Problem is, up until that point, I have enough confidence to not worry about it.
 
Most pros shoot softer then it looks sometimes on video etc. Of course when getting dead stroke they tend to play and hit a little faster, but in general they allow the object ball to start rolling into the pocket instead of sliding in all the way. Doing so allows the ball to drop if it hits the rail on the way in, especially useful along the rail and on tighter equipment.

After playing with a few top pros last summer and really watching, I realized I was hitting the ball 20% - 30% harder than I needed to, even in certain positions where before I thought I needed more of a "punch" to get position. Once I lowered my speed a bit and gained confidence and recalibrated certain positional shots, my occasional slight misses turned into made balls and certainly helped extend runs and racks.

Scott
 
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