The Talent Code

sfleinen said:
Exactly.
"Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several thousand things that won't work." - Thomas Alva Edison​
And, Lou has a great point about his own excellent communication skills -- the ability for the *student* to drag out of the instructor that which he/she wants or needs to know. If you're going to be a lemming, be passive, say nothing, and let the instructor direct you off a cliff, you now have to resort to plan B. That is, it is *you* -- not the instructor -- to now recognize that the cliff is there. If you don't see the cliff and tumble over it, it is you, not the instructor, that has to dust himself after the fall, and then climb back up that cliff.

The ONLY way you can do this, is the 10,000 hours (or whatever extra amount of hours are needed to "recover"). I don't like to use the term HAMB, because, to me, it implies aimlessly hitting a million balls (although that it itself has its own purposes -- like embedding successes and failures into the subconscious). I think a mixture of structured practice, and HAMB, is a perfect compliment. Human nature is to *want* to succeed, so while you're HAMB'ing, if you notice that you're doing something wrong, you know in your mind you need to work on that -- and that's where the structured practice comes in. Any semi-intelligent person knows this, bows his/her head, and bellies up to the structured practice bar to work those things out. At the same time, HAMB'ing exercises the "fun" aspect of the game -- why you play the game in the first place. After you've structured-practiced, you then HAMB to let your hair down and have fun. Or vice-versa, depending on what your particular needs/motivation is.

Point is, not everything is black and white. I don't believe that old notion that you shouldn't step up to the table unless you have a particular goal in mind, "every single time" you step up to the table. That's horse puckey. Even unstructured practice -- HAMB'ing -- has its purpose, both instructional and recreational. The recreational part is obvious; the instructional part is what many of the analytical types reading and posting here do not realize -- and that's what the Thomas Edison quote above alludes to. Embedding the successes and failures in your subconscious has a lot more value than you realize.

-Sean
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I know when I go to an instructor I have a mental list of things I want out of that particular lesson. Ferinstance, when I went to Dallas West, I had a long list of things I wanted to know and ask him about. When I wasn't satisfied with an answer, I asked him to further explain. And that was the great thing about my lesson with Dallas -- I felt that he wasn't holding back anything and was happy to spend as long as I wanted on any particular subject. It was great. So like Sean pointed out: you can't just be an empty vessel, or lemming. You need to be able to take a lesson where you want it to go.

Lou Figueroa
 
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Scott Lee said:
Lou...Let's see...Randyg has finished 2nd in a national tournament. I have finished 3rd in a national tournament. Is that good enough to "pass your test" of being able to play...or do you consider that just mediocre? Maybe you and I should schedule a TAR match. Of course you'd have to give me huge weight, since you allegedly play so much better than I do. :rolleyes:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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I have no knowledge of your respective resumes. Just out of curiosity though: were these individual or team competitions; bar box or 9 footers; and was this amateur level or pro/open?

However, one telling thing (that doesn't surprise me) is that you'd open up a woofing session by asking for weight.

Lou Figueroa
 
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Lou...I think that's an excellent idea, and something I am impressed with, when I show up for a private lesson. Even better to write the list out. In every lesson where I have a student who has a list, before the lesson is over we make sure we have covered EVERYTHING on the list. Again, I believe most good instructors do this...whether they happen to be pro players, or not.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

lfigueroa said:
I know when I go to an instructor I have a mental list of things I want out of that particular lesson.

Lou Figueroa
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Neil...Tap, tap, tap! Excellent post!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Neil said:
Why do you leave out the fact that teaching is an art in and of itself? I have seen a number of top players that can't teach a lick. Many of them don't even have much of a clue with their conscious mind what they are even doing. Their subconscious knows what to do, but their conscious mind doesn't. Example- you have no problem walking. Now, try and explain to someone exactly how to walk. You can't. You don't even know for sure just what does what in your leg. But, you can walk just fine.

Many of the top players aren't even doing what they THINK they are doing. In the last few years, Dr. Dave and Bob Jewett have proven this with slo-mo cameras. There are a few world class players that also teach, and some of them DO know what they are doing, and can explain it.

Just your statement shows that you have no idea what it takes to be a top pro. Actually, I believe you really do, but you just won't accept the fact. Playing top notch, that's for the most part just doing what you and I can already do. They just do it much more consistently than we do, and they have a much better frame of mind than we do.

So what makes us inconsistent compared to them? There can be a thousand things. That's what the good instructors do. They find out what you are doing inconsistently, and give you a way to be much more consistent.

How well you play depends at least partially on how much you play. The instructors are out teaching, not playing. They may not have the mindset to play top notch, yet they know all about what does what and why it does it. And, how to get that across to someone else. Yet, a top player may have no idea whatsoever how to communicate what is happening on a table or why.
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Scott Lee said:
Lou...I think that's an excellent idea, and something I am impressed with, when I show up for a private lesson. Even better to write the list out. In every lesson where I have a student who has a list, before the lesson is over we make sure we have covered EVERYTHING on the list. Again, I believe most good instructors do this...whether they happen to be pro players, or not.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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It's kinda of a basic instructor thing, when people are coming to you for a lesson: ask them what they're expectations are; attempt to meet them; then ask them along the way if you're meeting their expectations and if not try and do so before they leave.

Lou Figueroa
 
Neil...Another great post! :thumbup: I just wanted to add one little tidbit about kicking with english, that I'm sure you already know, but wanted to make sure it was more generally known to AzB readers. When setting up a kick shot, and instructing the student to shoot the shot with sidespin, it is a great help to show them that the CB goes different places based on where on the vertical axis you hit it, with english (top/middle/bottom). The same speed stroke will open the angle a measurable amount hitting low with side...just as hitting high with side will lesson the angle the same measurable amount. Many players never learn what happens when you just use sidespin, without top or bottom spin added.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Neil said:
Now, at times I instruct. Never have been a great player, never will be. Student comes to me to learn how to kick. I set up the shot in the diagram. He has to hit the one. Of course, he can't do it. So, I teach him the principles behind the shot. If you hit one diamond over, where will the cb go? He wasn't sure. It goes two diamonds over with no english. Equal /opposite. Now, where do we have to hit the rail to hit the one? He tells me where correctly. I then state, good, but you can't hit that spot on the rail, so what do you do??

He says to spin the cb. I tell him to go ahead and try it. He doesn't come close to the one. So, now I teach him a basic of english. If you add one tip of english at medium speed, you will go over one more diamond. To make things simple for this shot, you know that hitting the first diamond from the side will make you scratch in the other side. Now, look at where the one is. It is two diamonds over from the side pocket.

So, add two tips of english to come over two diamonds from your known spot. He tries it. And guess what, he MAKES the one in the corner on his first attempt! Yes, I will give you that him actually MAKING it was a pleasant surprise, and he's not going to do it very often. And, that was just the very beginning of kicking. What I would call Kicking- the kindergarten class. But, even at that level, principles are being taught.

But, which teacher would you really rather go to?? The one that can't describe anything and doesn't even know what to look for, or the one that can describe things, knows what to look for, and can show you how to not only learn a shot, but teach you the principle behind the shot so that you can now take that principle and adapt it to your needs at the time?? Now, that's just ONE true life example. And, that's just from me, a nobody.

So, if you still think that us non-champions don't have anything to offer, well, don't ever go to one of us.

CueTable Help

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Lou...So, since I DO that, it makes me a poor instructor, because I never claimed to be a world-class player? BTW, you might be surprised to find out that there are MANY teachers (BCA and pro players alike) that do not do this "basic instructor thing". There are also many alleged 'reputable' teachers who, after the lesson, leave the student with no way to be able to review what they were taught. The average person forgets 50% of something they learned today, by tomorrow...without a way to review. After a month it's 95% gone...without a way to review. My students get two ways to review...video and on paper. Wouldn't you consider that "added value" (even though I consider it absolutely essential)? Oh, and one more thing. I don't "attempt" to meet my students expectations. I meet, and exceed them (that's that 100% satisfaction, or your money back thing). Think Dallas would have given you your money back if you weren't satisfied? Maybe...maybe not. The fact is, I will, on the spot.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

lfigueroa said:
It's kinda of a basic instructor thing, when people are coming to you for a lesson: ask them what they're expectations are; attempt to meet them; then ask them along the way if you're meeting their expectations and if not try and do so before they leave.

Lou Figueroa
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Neil...Let me share something that Jerry Breisath taught me decades ago. All poolplayers are like a clock face. From 12 to 3 you have the total beginners...the lesson is all fundamentals. From 3 to 6 you have the good intermediate players...again, teaching some fundamentals, but more playing knowledge and strategy. From 6 to 9 you have the best local guys (semi pros and shortstops)...with them there is a small amount of fundamentals, but more focus again, on patterns, position play, safety play, strategy, etc. From 9 to 12 you have the professional players. Guess what...it's all about the fundamentals with them...because they already possess the playing knowledge, but something is preventing them from performing at their peak consistently...or, I know in my case, they have come to me with an open mind, asking "Is there something you can show me, that will give me an edge over the next guy?" I tell them, "Yes, or don't pay me!" Seems fair...:D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Neil said:
What I'm trying to get across to you Lou, is that you are selling good instructors way short. Sure, most of their instruction is fundamentals. But, that does NOT mean that is all they know.;) Heck, even I, as far down the totem pole as I am, have shown a couple pros things they never knew before. Likewise, I have learned a few things from some pros. It's a two way street.
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lfigueroa said:
I don't know about the resumes of many of the instructors out there, but would be all ears, er, eyes, to read about them.

So maybe we just agree to disagree -- I think you're better off with someone who can really play the game. I mean, let's throw out the trophies for a moment, and even monies won matching up, and just say that the guy should be able to rum multiple racks on a regular basis.

As to me -- no, I don't consider myself qualified to teach. I have had many people approach me about lessons and I always point them to Mark (so many, he probably owes me some jelly). Only when someone insists have I given lessons. I certainly do not advertise myself as any kind of pool instructor.

Lou Figueroa
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I think we should conclude that we simply have different viewpoints. I feel that you could have a completely paralyzed man who studies pool intensely end up being a good coach. If that person developed a way to communicate so that the student was able to translate the instruction into repeatable results then his coach is good.

I think that "instruction" is simply one person telling or showing another person what they know. That's it. From that basic premise stems all achievement. You have been instructed by others who are lesser players than yourself. You have instructed players lesser than yourself.

So instruction has many levels and many layers. It could be something so simple as me showing off to some bangers and "teaching" them how to draw their ball better and one of them has the fire ignited by being shown how much more is possible and two years later he is giving me the seven ball.

There is a coach here who turns out champions. One of his students became the national champion a few a years ago. His student's roster of victories at important events could fill a book. I have never seen this guy hit a ball. Students come from all over China to train with him. He stands there and tells the player what to do, he doesn't get on the table and demonstrate. He talks. They do. I have no idea whether he can run a rack or not or if he even owns a pool cue. (I am sure he does)

So, yes, let's agree to disagree. When you read the book you may change your mind. It's not written for pool. It's about everything.
 
John...What an excellent post! :thumbup: One of the things I have said a million times, if I've said it once, is, "Rule #1 in pool is...if you make the ball, you get to go again. Rule #2 is...there are no points for 'pretty'! :D In the pro ranks we have 'pretty' strokes, and ugly strokes. They all seem to get the job done...and yes Lou, they have ALL HAMB'd! :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

JB Cases said:
That's why I said for "some" people. For others HAMB = putting in the time.

The only two ways you know a road is bad is to have an accurate and up to date map (i.e. a good coach) or to go down it and have to turn around.

There is nothing wrong with an instructor who doesn't give you what you need. Sometimes you have to explore the "bad" to find the good.

If you would read the book then you would understand this. Getting the wrong information also builds myelin in that it builds the pathways to quickly process input to determine what is "good" and what is "bad".

I am of course assuming that you have not read the book yet based on your responses. If you have then perhaps it's better to discuss which parts you don't agree with.

HAMB does equate to trial and error. Whether it's trial due to being coached or simply unscripted follow-your-whim discovery it's still TRY-ERR-MASTER.

That is what the book is about. A good coach becomes a good coach by virtue of trying-erring-mastering. Thus the combination of a good coach/instructor with a student willing to put in the time practicing DEEPLY is an important part of understanding how proficiency evolves in the brain.

The book opens with an example of a mediocre music student who works through a difficult piece in six minutes rather than the month it normally takes. Why? The book posits that it's because she is intently focused and that intensity drives myelin production which makes the neurons make faster connections. Thus each rep brings her understanding of the complexity to another level. Wheras if she simply "put in the time" without putting in the focus then it would take her a month to reach the same level of proficiency playing the same piece.

We don't know if there was an instructor who said or did something to spark that intensity. Maybe, maybe not but it's there and that sort of deep intense focused practice is what is important.

Thus a person CAN develop into a good player with an "unorthodox" style. Because as Dave Segal put it, "it's all about the balls going in the holes and it doesn't matter how they got there". The balls don't care if the person did an irish jig before they were struck. They only go where directed. So you take a Keith Mcready and toss him into a pool room with a bunch of stone-cold killers as a teenager where the only "instruction" is win or be broke then that kid is going to figure out how to get the balls to the holes. He is in what is a "hotbed" for nurturing and challenging and channeling desire. At that moment no one cares about the form if the goal is met. The score is kept by how much money is won in that situation. So myelin production is going crazy in that situation.
Now imagine if a little Keith Mcready with all that desire is paired up with an Efren Reyes as a coach/role model.

Oh wait, you have one, his name is Ronnie Alcano, world champion.
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Mitchxout said:
A great player will have insights beyond what any instructor knows. I'll admit instructors for beginner to intermediate players are good idea. But their knowledge is focused on basics and it surprises me what they don't know.
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A great player will certainly have experiential insights. You can't really convey in words what "cinching" a shot feels like. This only comes from experience. But one good player talking to another one can say, "I had to cinch that shot" and both understand exactly what that means.

A great coach will have observational insights. This comes from studying players as a whole from the outside. He can see things that the player cannot. His skill comes in taking in data from hundreds of players to glean what things they do which works well and catalog the common errors that hold someone back. Then he is able to tailor the message to each individual using that vast knowledge to choose from.

It may surprise you to actually find out WHAT some of these instructors who are being generally disrespected by you and Lou and a few others actually know.

I would bet pretty high that you can make a list of things you THINK that they don't know and go into a private room with them and hand them the list and let them answer each point on video and when done show that video to someone you THINK knows all right answers to the points on your list and you will see that they actually DO know the answers.

Just because they don't get into higher level pool concepts with most of their students does not mean that they themselves don't know those concepts.

Added to that, there are many levels of instructors. Of course someone who is an APA6 in league but who has passed BCA instructor class is not going to know much about "real pool". But they know enough to get people who know less than they do started.

And to address Lou's question about what IF an instructor gets someone started on a habit that is bad for them? My counter question is how does one find out what is good or bad for a person? Just like a pill, you take it because it's worked for a lot of others and hope it works for you as well, results may vary.
 
lfigueroa said:
I didn't know he played pool.

Lou Figueroa
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He doesn't play football either, has no national titles to his name, can't throw a football anywhere close to the level of the people he coaches. And yet he is sought after as a coach to the highest level of players.

This thread is not talking about pool Lou.
 
Scott Lee said:
Lou...So, since I DO that, it makes me a poor instructor, because I never claimed to be a world-class player? BTW, you might be surprised to find out that there are MANY teachers (BCA and pro players alike) that do not do this "basic instructor thing". There are also many alleged 'reputable' teachers who, after the lesson, leave the student with no way to be able to review what they were taught. The average person forgets 50% of something they learned today, by tomorrow...without a way to review. After a month it's 95% gone...without a way to review. My students get two ways to review...video and on paper. Wouldn't you consider that "added value" (even though I consider it absolutely essential)? Oh, and one more thing. I don't "attempt" to meet my students expectations. I meet, and exceed them (that's that 100% satisfaction, or your money back thing). Think Dallas would have given you your money back if you weren't satisfied? Maybe...maybe not. The fact is, I will, on the spot.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Not much would surprise me -- the world is filled with all kinds of instructors, good and bad, who do and do not do all kinds of things. And as you highlight, there are many reputable instructors who don't do a lot of things they should. It is the way of the world.

As to Dallas, I have *zero* doubt that if I told him I was unhappy with the lesson he would not have accepted a penny. He started the lesson by meeting me at a Denny's and buying me coffee. We then went to his studio and he started the lesson without bringing up the subject of money (as have all three of the guys I've gone to lessons for). I didn't pay him until the lesson was over, when I asked him what I owed him for his time and actually paid him $50 more than he asked. Dallas is not only a world class player, but a great instructor and a gentleman.

I'm guessing -- from your comment about refunding money -- that you collect up front.

Lou Figueroa
 
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JB Cases said:
He doesn't play football either, has no national titles to his name, can't throw a football anywhere close to the level of the people he coaches. And yet he is sought after as a coach to the highest level of players.

This thread is not talking about pool Lou.
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I think the discussion has migrated a bit :-) Scott is now woofing at me and is, at any moment no doubt, going to tell us all about his resume, and national title, and whether it was team or individual, and whether it was on bar boxes or 9 footers, and whether it was amateur or open/pro competition. I mean, he brought it up...

Lou Figueroa
waiting
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JB Cases said:
It may surprise you to actually find out WHAT some of these instructors who are being generally disrespected by you and Lou and a few others actually know.
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What surprised me is what some instructors don't actually know.

For example, slow shots have to be cut more. This is as basic as it gets.

Also, the point of aim is different for draw vs stun even though no side englsh is used.

These are basic concepts not only misunderstood but they started arguing them.
 
lfigueroa said:
[...]as mosall ... I've gone to lessons for have done[...]
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Mosall? Isn't he the guy in TCOM, in Chalkies -- the tall one with a nosering and chewing a toothpick -- that Fast Eddie told Vince to stay away from, because he was the main stick around there?

I didn't know he gave lessons!

:p

-Sean
 
Mitchxout said:
What surprised me is what some instructors don't actually know.

For example, slow shots have to be cut more. This is as basic as it gets.

Also, the point of aim is different for draw vs stun even though no side englsh is used.

These are basic concepts not only misunderstood but they started arguing them.
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I can't comment on either of these points except to say that I don't consider either one to be basic. I would refer them to our resident mythbuster Dr. Dave.

I am sure he has a video that covers both points and if not one will be forthcoming. In general though I will say that Dr. Dave has shown that some things regarded as "common knowledge" and passed on by good players are not actually true in all cases. Don't ask me to quote the source because I can't think of the actual video at the moment. I vaguely remember it having to do with bank shots though.
 
JB Cases said:
I can't comment on either of these points except to say that I don't consider either one to be basic. I would refer them to our resident mythbuster Dr. Dave.

I am sure he has a video that covers both points and if not one will be forthcoming. In general though I will say that Dr. Dave has shown that some things regarded as "common knowledge" and passed on by good players are not actually true in all cases. Don't ask me to quote the source because I can't think of the actual video at the moment. I vaguely remember it having to do with bank shots though.
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Yes, Dr Dave has videos showing these exact shots. These are basic concepts. Speed affects point of aim. Verticle spin affects point of aim. Maybe the average Joe isn't aware but any instructor worth his salt has to know. They don't even have to great players. But there is a tendency for novices to overcut draw shots and undercut slow shots. Basic pool.
 
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