The "Tragedy" of the jump cue?

[MrLucky]

I agree...

I use one but would be fine if they were banned from the game. It is a disadvantage to not use one in a tournament when everyone else can.

Having said that, I feel that they are not better for the game. The cue ball is meant to be played on the cloth, not in the air. JMHO..

Carry on, JBK

but then I have been called Ole School!

 

[John Barton]

Another good thing that the IPT had - no jump cues allowed.

On a side note, Mr. John Barton, your last post was absolutely irrelevant to what Banks was arguing. You try to make it sound absurd yet you completely missed his point.

I suppose I did then. What was the point?

Do people use special lures, high tech rods, and all manner of other things in fishing?

Do competitive swimmers use everything they can to make themselves faster?

Do archers use special bows, strings, and flights?

Are there crossbow competitions? Yes and they don't allow longbows.

No dynamite in fishing? Well duh....

It seems as if my point was completely missed.

If you believe that a certain tip works better than another then that is a competitive advantage. If you believe that one shaft works better than another then that's a competitive advantage. Of course one can jump easier with a jump cue than a "normal" cue. That's the whole point of making them.

You can also apply spin to the cueball better with a chalked leather tip? Should we ban that as well?

Let's assume for just a moment that no leather tip is significantly better than any other and that the full range shots possible with a standard cue and a standard leather tip are available to all players who have the skill to execute them. Can you agree with this premise?

If so then we can agree that the use of a leather tip confers no particular advantage to any player as the benefits of it's use are available to all players. So far so good right? Leather tips are okay.

Now, let's take jump cues in their current form. Today's modern jump cues definitely widen the range of jump shots available. They do make it easy to jump over a ball. BUT they confer no particular advantage as they are available to all players. No player is FORCED to take a kick shot because they don't have access to a jump cue. All halfway serious players playing the game today have access to jump cues. So in the EXACT same way as the tip they all have access to the full range of shots that the jump cue brings with it.

So, if you believe that the leather tip is an acceptable part of pool then you must accept the jump cue as long as jump shots are critical to the playing of the game.

I will say this one more time. If you don't like jump cues then CHANGE the rules so that they are not NEEDED. As long as there is a need then there will be a supply.

Ban the jump shot if you want to see jump cues disappear. But I would hope that you would also ban the lucky safe and the harsh penalty of ball in hand that comes with it.

I just spent a week watching world class players make incredible kicks and jumps. I also watched a lot of LUCK in the results of both kicks and jumps.

Ga Young Kim played some jump shots that incredibly skilled. ABSOLUTELY STUNNING shots that were executed with precision. She also made some great kick shots. Other players looked like hacks with the jump cue on shots that were fairly easy. It was quite obvious that they hadn't put the time in developing their skill as Ms. Kim had done. Both of these players have EXACTLY the same opportunity with the tool. The difference is that one uses it as a crutch while the other uses it as an addition to further her abilities.

So who CARES if the jump cue makes it easy to jump? So what? A kicking system makes it easy to kick, an aiming system makes it easy to line up but not one of these things pulls the trigger and makes the shot. They only make the shot possible.

 

[smokeandapancak]

Franky... check your PMs

 

[John Barton]

I'll chime in, since it's been a while since I have really posted anything...lol.

Personally, I do not like the jump shot in pool at all, with or without a jump cue. I think it makes for a lazy player, and perhaps has made the game, particularly 9 Ball, easier than it should be.

I don't know. I spent a LOT of time trying to master the jump shot before jump cues ever became a part of the game, with more or less success depending on the cue I was using and my erratic stroke. When the jump cues came along I resisted them at first and then spent a lot of time refining my skill with them. I certainly don't feel lazy when I think of the hundreds of hours I have invested in being able to execute the jump shots that I can do.

A large part of the game is strategy. But, IMHO, what is the point of playing good strategy pool, if a jump shot can negate it so easily? And no, I can't jump...never really cared to learn how...preferring to hone my 'on table' skills. By not using a jump cue and/or shot, you are forced to learn to use the aspect of rail play into your game. For me, it is much more satisfying to execute a nice legal shot, utilizing the rails, than any jump shot could provide me. I also think it will make you a better, more rounded player, overall.

The point is that you have to play better strategy. If the answer is so easy then the problem wasn't that hard. I can cite a time when Ralf Souquet played a safety against Corey Duell with allen Hopkins commenting. Ralf had put the object ball near the side pocket and Allen commented that Ralf had played a poor safety by leaving Corey a "big" ball to shoot at. Sure enough Corey easily kicked the object ball in. For me it ismore satisfying to execute a good shot based on my skill whether it be a jump or a kick. Learning all needed shots makes you a well rounded player.

Also, take into account the general 'wear and tear' on the equipment. Phenolic balls were not meant to be bounced, nor was slate meant to be bounced upon...let alone the damage the cloth will sustain over time. I have a table at home, and I will not allow ANYONE to make jump shots on it. I have taught both my kids to play now, and both are pretty fair players...and both were taught to incorporate rail play into their games. That's what the rails are for...and why they are made of rubber. It's not really until one incorporates a good rail play into their game that they can truly appreciate just exactly what they can do with the rails, and what the rails can do for them.

And how do you know that phenolic balls are not meant to be bounced? The "bounce" into and off of each other with every shot. The slate is well hard enough to withstand millions of jump shots. Your kids will lose more than they should if they do not learn to jump balls unless they only play games where jump shots are not needed. They may be fair players now but they are not well rounded until they master all the required skills.

No one who is for jump cues is against learning to kick, or "rail play" as you call it. This is not a question of one or the other. It's a question of having all the tools to play the right shot without limitations. If you don't have the ability to jump then a whole section of the game is unavailable to you. If you prefer to give that up then it's your choice. Just don't make it some kind of moral issue.

Go back and watch some tapes of the old masters at work. What they could do with a CB and the rails in tandem was a thing of beauty...and they weren't sending the CB airborne to do it.

Which tapes would those be? The "old" masters as you call them weren't reknowned for their kicking skills. Players who came up in the 70s/80s with two foul nine ball also weren't particularly good at kicking since it wasn't really needed as one could push on every shot. In fact it wasn't until Texas Express rules became the norm that people really started paying attention to kicking. Maybe Earl could be considered an "old" master of modern 9-ball and he is reknowned for his jumping ability with a full cue and was well before the introduction of jump cues.

I hate to say it, but too much technology in the game has made it an easier game to play, and be successful at, for a greater population of players. Gone is the heyday of the simple cue, and the talent to truly utilize it well. Gone is the day when a player walked into a room with nothing more than a 1x1 or 1x2 case, and shot lights out with what was inside. Nowadays, most players and pros need a caddy just to tote the luggage they carry around...and that is just to the matches!

Yes I agree. Pool was much better when it was played with a mace on green cloth with holes in the wooden bed. Who really cares what the players bring to the match? In the end it is them holding an inert object and attempting to manipulate other inert object in a precise way. I don't care if they bring 50 cues to the match as long as they still have to pull the trigger themselves. I truly cannot see how the cue has made the game easier. If anything the introduction of the jump cue has made it harder. Now the player must be adept at calculating the angle of the shot as well as the stroke speed and spin. With the added range of shots now available comes the need to practice more and master another skill set.

I would love to see the day again where a simple cue and talent reigned supreme...but that's just me.

Lisa

Then you have to love it now because skill is what wins tournaments. No one is winning because they have some magic superior technology. A jump cue is a simple cue. It's a piece of wood with a hard tip. Everything else is up to the player.

 

[DoomCue]

John, I think what most posters are really saying is that jump cues have made the offensive part of the game easier, and the defensive part of the game harder. A lot of games lately, like baseball, football, hockey, etc., have come up with rules and/or equipment to make scoring easier. For true purists (read: old-schoolers), that's a difficult pill to swallow. For instance, I played baseball for a long time. I was a pitcher and I caught on days when I wasn't pitching. I HATE games that are home run fests - I'd rather sweat a 1-0 or 2-0 display of superb pitching and strategy than steroid-induced homers any day.

I'm not saying that defense is dead, but it's a lot harder these days to pull off a dead-nuts safety. Add to that the fact that jump cues can allow a position mistake to be canceled out, and jump cues have changed the game.

That being said, players of today must play by the rules of today. I still hear guys complaining about BIH rules 9 ball....

Because of the current rules, I have a jump cue. I use the jump cue. I actually practice jump shots, just as I practice the break and any other shot. However, I don't like jump shots, and I don't like jump cues. I refuse, though, to be left behind because I don't agree with a rule. As the game changes, so must I.

-djb

 

[SphinxnihpS]

Dear John Barton,

I would like to thank you for your comments. You have swayed me over to your side. I have a new attitude, and for that I am in your debt. From now on when I read someone's post here, I will do my very best to misunderstand them and and make light of their thoughts with no concern whatsoever for logic. This will make it much easier to interact with people here as I will no longer have to spend time trying to comprehend anything; that just makes saying whatever I want, no matter how ludicrous, far simpler. I am finally free!

Sincerely,

Anonymous nerd hiding behind a computer screen

 

[uwate]

Until they ban them and everyone is not allowed to use them, I will continue to use them myself. I liken competitive pool to war, if the other side is allowed to arm itself with special weapons, I want access to these weapons as well.

On a few accustats, Buddy Hall and Grady discuss jump cues. Buddy clearly doesnt like them but he was forced to accept and adapt to their use. He even calls his jump cue, "Buddy's Buddy".

 

[CaptainHook]

Until they ban them and everyone is not allowed to use them, I will continue to use them myself. I liken competitive pool to war, if the other side is allowed to arm itself with special weapons, I want access to these weapons as well.

On a few accustats, Buddy Hall and Grady discuss jump cues. Buddy clearly doesnt like them but he was forced to accept and adapt to their use. He even calls his jump cue, "Buddy's Buddy".

Yeah, Jay Flowers started that back in the 80's when he built this case for him. Back in the day, before Jump cues were mainstream.

I took this from Tate's palmer site:

 

[John Barton]

John, I think what most posters are really saying is that jump cues have made the offensive part of the game easier, and the defensive part of the game harder. A lot of games lately, like baseball, football, hockey, etc., have come up with rules and/or equipment to make scoring easier. For true purists (read: old-schoolers), that's a difficult pill to swallow. For instance, I played baseball for a long time. I was a pitcher and I caught on days when I wasn't pitching. I HATE games that are home run fests - I'd rather sweat a 1-0 or 2-0 display of superb pitching and strategy than steroid-induced homers any day.

I'm not saying that defense is dead, but it's a lot harder these days to pull off a dead-nuts safety. Add to that the fact that jump cues can allow a position mistake to be canceled out, and jump cues have changed the game.

That being said, players of today must play by the rules of today. I still hear guys complaining about BIH rules 9 ball....

Because of the current rules, I have a jump cue. I use the jump cue. I actually practice jump shots, just as I practice the break and any other shot. However, I don't like jump shots, and I don't like jump cues. I refuse, though, to be left behind because I don't agree with a rule. As the game changes, so must I.

-djb

I agree. Jump cues have made the offensive part of the game easier. And this is in direct response to the fact that one-foul ball in hand rules have made the defensive part of the game easier as well.

Why weren't jump cues part of the game 25 years ago? Because then one could push on every shot to escape a hooked situation. Then it was a dare to take the shot and the shotmakers like Buddy were rewarded for their superior skill. No one got rewarded for missing and hooking their opponent.

I agree that there shouldn't be corked bats in baseball. The playing field can't keep up with the extra distance that such equipment provides. In all these sports however there has been plenty of innovation. Baseball is certainly played at a much higher level now than it was in 1920 and that is due to the innovations in equipment, playing conditions, and training techniques.

My whole point all along has been that as the game evolves, through improvements in playing conditions, rules changes, and the level of talent, then so does the balance between what is needed and what is allowed.

The only real tradition that we need to be concerned with is making sure that the player has to rely on his judgement and skill to execute the shots.

Texas Express rules changed the game of nine ball. The jump cue and added range of shots that come with it are a result of that change. The overall increase in the understanding of kick shots is also a result of the changes to nine ball that came about because of Texas Express rules.

Perhaps Randy Goetlicher will step in here to clarify but I have to assume that when he and John McChesney (RIP) came up with TE rules that they knew of some jump cues like the Meucci and Joss ones and that they knew that jumping balls would be a larger factor in the way the game would be played under 1-foul ball-in-hand rules.

So I have to guess that they deliberately didn't ban either the jump shot or the jump cue for the very fact that both are needed to play under the 1-foul rules.

And that's really what it comes down to. Who makes the rules? Why do they make them? Who is governed by those rules?

In pool, there are so many variations and so many leagues and organizations that play under differing rules that no one can lay claim to being the true governing body of the sport of pocket billiards. I can't think of another activity with so much competitive variation. Can you?

Forgetting about the jump cue entirely for a moment, try going around the world and playing in 9 and 8 ball tournaments and see how many different rulesets (and as a result, different strategies to win) you are faced with.

Thus there is truly no tradition to rely on when it comes to "how" the "game" is meant to be played.

Pocket billiards has to be the most flexible of activities around. Using 15 or less balls I have seen countless games being played for money and in formal competition. This little debate about the merits/corruption of the jump cue is but a miniscule part of the world of pocket billiards as practiced around the world.

 

[John Barton]

Dear John Barton,

I would like to thank you for your comments. You have swayed me over to your side. I have a new attitude, and for that I am in your debt. From now on when I read someone's post here, I will do my very best to misunderstand them and and make light of their thoughts with no concern whatsoever for logic. This will make it much easier to interact with people here as I will no longer have to spend time trying to comprehend anything; that just makes saying whatever I want, no matter how ludicrous, far simpler. I am finally free!

Sincerely,

Anonymous nerd hiding behind a computer screen

I would hope that you would attempt to understand the subject matter and be able to comment on it from a position of knowledge rather than a position of emotion based on historical inaccuracy.

And I would further hope that you could discern tongue-in-cheek comments for the humor they inject into the debate.

Furthermore, i would hope that when you label someone's comments as ludicrous that you would develop the habit of explaining why they are so rather than expecting the readers to read your mind as to how you arrived at that conclusion.

I am not making light of anyone's thoughts. I am presenting one side of the discussion. Why don't you try and simply add to the discussion rather than throwing out the red herring of analyzing my posting style?

 

[PoolSponge]

Has everyone voted?

Just wanted to bump this up and see how many votes I can get on the poll. I think AZ has over 10k members so I figure we could aim to get about 1k in votes.

 

[edd]

jump cues

Aren't jump cues simply part of the evolution of the game? While the new technology and design may certainly getting the cue ball elevated, one must still learn to make the shot and even get position. In golf, it is now standard to have multiple wedges.

 

[cigardave]

Just wanted to bump this up and see how many votes I can get on the poll. I think AZ has over 10k members so I figure we could aim to get about 1k in votes.

I tried to vote... got the message that the voting has been closed... wtf?