The USA Needs Players to Fill the Shoes of Sigel, Varner, Hall, Mizerak, etc.

I agree with what you say

Jay,

You did a good job covering the bases. Simply no incentive for a very talented male to play pool here. If he has good hand eye coordination and spatial vision he can make millions doing something else so why be a chump playing pool? If he does play pool, he spends a major portion of his time hustling a dollar or working a real job to live.

I read on here about how many racks people can run and I wonder how many I could have ran at my best. Truth is I can only remember a few occasions when I uncorked and shot my best game. I was too busy making a buck gambling to play pool. I made a lot of money and don't regret the choices I made but I considered trying to play pool seriously in the early seventies. At the time something else that I knew was a very long shot still offered a much better chance than pool. Pool's position in the US has improved slightly since then but not much. Who in their right mind would encourage their child to devote themselves to pool right now?

Hu



jay helfert said:
Many reasons for the decline in American domination of Pool.

Number one, I agree with the statement that the rest of the world has made huge advances, while the USA has not.

Number two, why would a good young athlete in this country chose pool, when many other sports offer much greater monetary rewards. Pool remains a choice primarily for young men and women who do not excel at other sports. There are exceptions to this of course.

Number three, the older players mentioned had a background in 14.1 first and also learned games like Three Cushion Billiards. This made them better players overall. Notice almost all the top players of yesteryear came from the Eastern part of the country where 14.1 was so strong.

I agree with the poster who said that if there were a major pool tour in the USA, many young people would get involved in the game. Not a sham tour, but a true national (or International) tour. Look at what the WPBA has done for women's pool. All the good young girls picking up cues. The level of play among the women has increased rapidly since the advent of the WPBA, especially with the ESPN coverage of all events.

That being said, there is always the possibility of a great player developing here. I like Shane a lot, Justin B. and Austin Murphy.
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You can point to a number of factors like resting on our laurels, nutrition, tv, video games, pool rooms that cater to drunks and bangers, but imo the main reason why there are so many great players coming from other countries is that pool is BIGTIME popular in those countries. Correct me if I am wrong but doesnt Taiwan have huge pool rooms on just about every street? And they are always PACKED?

Pool gets live primetime coverage overseas. That wouldnt happen unless the networks overseas knew that they had a viable audience base. Alot of people overseas watch pool and know the game. In the USA most don't even know the rules to 9ball. People overseas give pool players alot of respect and alot of times they are hailed as heroes. In the USA if someone finds out that you play competitive pool, the first question out of their mouth usually is "Oh so you hustle pool eh?" There is a confused look in their eyes if you tell them that pool played for money is rarely played against know nothing idiots that you have conned into playing with remarks like "oh how do you play this game?". People in the USA think pool players are con men. (not so far off the mark unfortunately)

That 16 year old kid Chia-Ching Wu was given a 6 figure bonus by the Taiwanese Government after he won the world 9ball championship. Just ask Earl Strickland how much Uncle Sam gave him for winning it all 2002. His reward was maybe customs allowed him to carry the trophy aboard the plane instead of checking it at the counter.

Face it, the United States does not have the needed support from fans, our government and the billiard industry to get the base of young players large enough to generate champions that can compete with other countries. Thats not saying we do not have amazing talent here. Shane Van Boeing will beat just about anyone with a USA birth certificate in 9ball for the cash right now.
 
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cuetechasaurus said:
What is it that separates the calibur of play from the top players of yesteryear, from the players today? Is the USA going to have another Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Johnny Archer, Kim Davenport, etc.? It seems like the other countries are beginning to make a joke out of American poolplayers.
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In my humble opinion. NO ONE will ever replace Nick Varner for talent in so many different pool games and class for how he acted win or lose in a match. Also his behavior; whether in gambling or helping kids learn pool has been matched by no one in this sport. His love of the game and endless support to keep his ethics higher than expected will always be remembered. As for having another Mike Sigel. I dont think Mike will allow that.
 
Stones said:
How about a major table manufacturer taking their pro staff on the road and doing exhibitions and clinics (Play the Pro for X amount with all the proceeds going to charity) in major malls before a major tournament in the area with a certain percentage of any money (prize fund or donations) to go to a charity. The local TV stations would be crawling all over each other to cover this. Do this long enough and see what happens to pool's overall image.
You just can't buy that kind of exposure.
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Although I do mostly agree with what you said, I have to disagree with this paragraph. It would be nice for this to happen, but TV stations crawling all over each other to cover pool??? I would think that pool is one of the last things that the media wants to cover. Plus, the malls would probably rather host a concert for an up and coming boy band(seems to happen often) then to host something pool related. Also, a major tournament is only major to us- the general public really could care less most of the time. Of course, doing things for charity is great, but I just don't see it making an impact on pool, as far as the general public goes.
 
After re-reading this thread, I had a flash. I'm a relatively small dude at 5'6", and going on the "we want to be better than the Americans" theory, maybe the asian countries like pool so much because they would have more trouble competing on a World level at say American Football, basketball, etc?

I know I've excelled at "non-team" sports my whole life like bowling, pool, golf, etc. being a short fat kid, I always got picked last anyway!:D

Gerry
 
cuetechasaurus said:
What is it that separates the calibur of play from the top players of yesteryear, from the players today? Is the USA going to have another Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Johnny Archer, Kim Davenport, etc.? It seems like the other countries are beginning to make a joke out of American poolplayers.
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I don't think it is the intention of International Superstars to make a joke out of Americans. Pride does not make a champion, at least in my book. :)
Not to stir-up any emotions, but I think it's gr8 that other countries have exposure.
We can learn from them new theories of play, or at least see a fresh perspective. And I am certain, they do the same thing vice versa.

Don't get me wrong, I understand how u feel. Take a look at the ALMS. It took a very long time before USA recaptured their title. Not only did they do that last year, but went to great lengths this year: 8 Starts, 8 First place finishes.
 
bump

most days I think the American players dump because foreign players have more expenses.
 
2006????

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cuetechasaurus said:
What is it that separates the calibur of play from the top players of yesteryear, from the players today? Is the USA going to have another Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Johnny Archer, Kim Davenport, etc.? It seems like the other countries are beginning to make a joke out of American poolplayers.
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The biggest difference is that the players of yesteryear regularly competed against the best players in the world, because most of them were American. Even when the stength of the Fillipinos became known, Parica, Reyes, Andam, Luat, Lining and Bustamante were all regulars on the PBT of the mdi to late 1990's. And the Americans continued to develop as players because all the big pool events were played in the USA.

American pool is down, way down, and most of the big events are played overseas. Other than Van Boening, American pros do not seem to show up consistently to many of the big events played overseas. Until they do, the pedigrees of young American pros will not develop to the point that they will
return to the ranks of the most elite.

Fifteen years ago, the Asians understood that America was the place to be if you wanted to develop your professional pedigree to the fullest, the place where you'd often get to compete with the very best. Today, Americans don'tsee things that way, and are happy to sit out the big events worldwide.

American pros, Shane aside, are much less dedicated to the game than the past generation of players. Unless this changes, American pool will remain in decline and the stars of Europe and Asia will widen the gap between themselves and the American pros not named Shane.

The scarcity of American players under 30 that look like they'll ever be among the world's 50 best players is undeniable, and it doesn't bode well. American pool is not just in a down cycle, but there are few signs that suggest that things will be better in the next decade.

Most of the great American champions of yesteryear were starting to win the biggest titles in their early 20's. You could tell early in the going that they'd be worldbeaters. The list of such players today begins and ends with Shane.

I sure hope I'm wrong about all this. Only time will tell.
 
sjm said:
The biggest difference is that the players of yesteryear regularly competed against the best players in the world, because most of them were American. Even when the stength of the Fillipinos became known, Parica, Reyes, Andam, Luat, Lining and Bustamante were all regulars on the PBT of the mdi to late 1990's. And the Americans continued to develop as players because all the big pool events were played in the USA.

American pool is down, way down, and most of the big events are played overseas. Other than Van Boening, American pros do not seem to show up consistently to many of the big events played overseas. Until they do, the pedigrees of young American pros will not develop to the point that they will
return to the ranks of the most elite.

Fifteen years ago, the Asians understood that America was the place to be if you wanted to develop your professional pedigree to the fullest, the place where you'd often get to compete with the very best. Today, Americans don'tsee things that way, and are happy to sit out the big events worldwide.

American pros, Shane aside, are much less dedicated to the game than the past generation of players. Unless this changes, American pool will remain in decline and the stars of Europe and Asia will widen the gap between themselves and the American pros not named Shane.

The scarcity of American players under 30 that look like they'll ever be among the world's 50 best players is undeniable, and it doesn't bode well. American pool is not just in a down cycle, but there are few signs that suggest that things will be better in the next decade.

Most of the great American champions of yesteryear were starting to win the biggest titles in their early 20's. You could tell early in the going that they'd be worldbeaters. The list of such players today begins and ends with Shane.

I sure hope I'm wrong about all this. Only time will tell.
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I agree with most of that, but feel Deschaine can be as great as he wants. As you say, how much a player wants it is the deciding factor.
 
An interesting thread. It's interesting to read that most asian and european countries back pool in some form, yet the main success is coming from the UK and we have absolutely no backing, no proper tournament structure aside from the GB9 Tour and no official coaching systems. The main coaches are the professional players themselves...

Why has Darren Appleton become one of the top 5 players in the world right now with no backing or structure etc?? Simple answer is he is a phenomenal cueist who has an insatiable desire to learn about any nuance of any pocket billiards game. Wouldn't surprise me to see him playing Pyramid or 3 Cushion in a few years time...

In a lot of the asian countries like China and Thailand snooker is a big sport. Snooker promotes good fundamentals and is quite regimented if you wish to improve. They all might stroke different but all have very solid fundamentals and great timing. Whereas my observation is the US dont give a crap about snooker unless its played on a mickey mouse 10x5 table. I think if snooker was bigger in the US you would have a cross section of very good cueists who would perhaps take up 9ball and eventually be a force to be reckoned with.
 
BFrench501 said:
An interesting thread. It's interesting to read that most asian and european countries back pool in some form, yet the main success is coming from the UK and we have absolutely no backing, no proper tournament structure aside from the GB9 Tour and no official coaching systems. The main coaches are the professional players themselves...

Why has Darren Appleton become one of the top 5 players in the world right now with no backing or structure etc?? Simple answer is he is a phenomenal cueist who has an insatiable desire to learn about any nuance of any pocket billiards game. Wouldn't surprise me to see him playing Pyramid or 3 Cushion in a few years time...

In a lot of the asian countries like China and Thailand snooker is a big sport. Snooker promotes good fundamentals and is quite regimented if you wish to improve. They all might stroke different but all have very solid fundamentals and great timing. Whereas my observation is the US dont give a crap about snooker unless its played on a mickey mouse 10x5 table. I think if snooker was bigger in the US you would have a cross section of very good cueists who would perhaps take up 9ball and eventually be a force to be reckoned with.
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Some good points made Barry, i have offered to cycle from amsterdam billiards to hollywood Billiards to raise funds for a junior academy, so that the juniors can be trained on having proper fundamentals. To build the juniors of the future and create future champions.

I have to apply for jobs in the far east and middle east etc.. as there is no structure here in the UK or America, yet i believe we produce more players than them due to the players snooker and 8 ball backgrounds and their stronger fundamentals than their American counterparts, and also that they compete on a regular basis against world class players. You have to get comfortable in your enviroment to compete with the best.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
What is it that separates the calibur of play from the top players of yesteryear, from the players today? Is the USA going to have another Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Johnny Archer, Kim Davenport, etc.? It seems like the other countries are beginning to make a joke out of American poolplayers.
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Back when those guys were on top the amount of top players from other countries was lower. The guys that were good back then weren't as experienced. So America had both a skill advantage and a psychological advantage.

But as the players elsewhere got better and got more experience they stopped being intimidated by the American pros. Meanwhile in the USA the pro tours fell apart and so the incentive for up and comers to really get on top and stay there diminished.

There is a BIG difference when you have a city like Manilla/Taipei/Shanghai where a lot of top players converge and play serious sets all the time to stay sharp and cities like Dallas where you might have one or two true pros and the rest aren't even close.

In Germany they have a national league where the top players are in teams and they play against each other team every couple months. They also have a strong league systems that is tiered to allow the best players to filter UP into the national teams.

And as SJM pointed out it's much more lucrative for the Asian players than it is for the Western players. Much more incentive when the median income is $10,000 a year than in a place where you need to make $25,000 a year just to stay above the poverty level.

Seen as a purely expenses vs. income proposition pool doesn't look like a very good deal to American professionals. So it's hard to continue to be motivated when you are facing a world full of great players who aren't afraid of you and when you win you still can't make the nut and don't know if you're even going to get paid.

When the Americans do go to overseas events then they are WAY outnumbered. So the odds are stacked against them anyway regardless of relative skill.

But in general it's that American players just either don't work hard enough to stay in fighting shape either because they are not motivated enough or because they really don't have the opportunities to do so.

The nut is way higher in the USA so just existing costs more.

Personally I think that a group of pros ought to form a team and get together to train and travel as a group. Then they agree to split expenses and winnings. They can act like a cycling team and work the tournaments as a team. And there can be other teams as well, at the end of the event it's still an individual fight. But there is strength in numbers and if there was a team behind you then you get pumped up and confident.

All that said Shane Van Boeing is doing a pretty good job of carrying the legacy of American championship caliber pool into overseas events.
 
BFrench501 said:
An interesting thread. It's interesting to read that most asian and european countries back pool in some form, yet the main success is coming from the UK and we have absolutely no backing, no proper tournament structure aside from the GB9 Tour and no official coaching systems. The main coaches are the professional players themselves...

Why has Darren Appleton become one of the top 5 players in the world right now with no backing or structure etc?? Simple answer is he is a phenomenal cueist who has an insatiable desire to learn about any nuance of any pocket billiards game. Wouldn't surprise me to see him playing Pyramid or 3 Cushion in a few years time...

In a lot of the asian countries like China and Thailand snooker is a big sport. Snooker promotes good fundamentals and is quite regimented if you wish to improve. They all might stroke different but all have very solid fundamentals and great timing. Whereas my observation is the US dont give a crap about snooker unless its played on a mickey mouse 10x5 table. I think if snooker was bigger in the US you would have a cross section of very good cueists who would perhaps take up 9ball and eventually be a force to be reckoned with.
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Darren has quite strong backing. Snooker is not "big" in China. It's popular in SOME places but not popular everywhere. In Xiamen where I live pool tables outnumber snooker tables by 20:1 at least.

In Beijing you can't hardly find a pool table with "American" pockets. Most of them are like mini-snooker tables with regular sized pool balls. And you don't see a lot of full sized snooker tables either. They play Chinese 8 Ball almost exclusively in Beijing.

Conversely in Shenzhen across from Hong Kong it's mostly Snooker but where there are pool tables it's American style.

The UK certainly has a few top players on the world stage but you are hardly dominating. But the fact is that you live on a small island where you have the opportunity to constantly test each other. You have snooker fundamentals to use as a guide. And as you said it, you have COACHES who come from the professional ranks.

You can take the top ten players in the USA and put them all together in one city and let them play against each other for six months for the right to be on a team that plays any other team in the world and I guarantee you that no other team on the planet has to like it one bit. Take them from all over the USA where they haven't been competing hard against each other and they probably won't have the best chance. They will STILL have a chance though because they are still top players.

But it is how a blade is forged (motivation) and how it is honed that determines how sharp it it and how well it does the job. Right now the motivation isn't there.

Although I argue that it should be. Thorsten lives in Florida, Mika in NYC, Darren in Philly. So if they can do it then so can the Americans.
 
Our youth just sucks pretty much. No desire and drive to take care of themselves, let alone get good at something as hard as pool is to master. Lot of it has to do with our "culture".. or more accurately, lack thereof.

Reminds me of yesterday when I was talking to a girl on the phone and discussing hobbies.. tell her you play competitive pool is like saying you're a professional beer pong player :/
 
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