The USA Needs Players to Fill the Shoes of Sigel, Varner, Hall, Mizerak, etc.

cuetechasaurus said:
What is it that separates the calibur of play from the top players of yesteryear, from the players today? Is the USA going to have another Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Johnny Archer, Kim Davenport, etc.? It seems like the other countries are beginning to make a joke out of American poolplayers.
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With the developments of late, I personally would like to forget the name Mike Sigel is associated with pool...

How about replacing him with a name that actually helped launch pool into the public eye in a positive way..."The Miz"

Or how about a name that helped educate many a beginner student learn the jargon of pool and many ideal tips through video study.....Grady Mathews and or Billy Incardona

Finally...as far as other contries making a joke out of american players today ....Nobody new about overseas players during yesteryear...Today there is internet, much more efficient travel etc....

Years ago...there were only a handful of really good players....Today again with internet, more effective training tools & teachers (that are willing to share the pool "secrets") there are way more good players just in the US...It is MUCH more difficult to stand out as a TOP pool player, cause there are so many in line waiting to knock you off your perch...
 
You know,
This could be a great BilliardsDigest artical.
This would be a great indepth artical.
I.E. Who has whos personallity, Who playes like who, Etc....
Damn, Yeah......
I think I'll be writing an E-mail soon.
-Vincent
 
CaptainHook said:
What about Hoppy's kid? He any good?
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If you're talking about Willie Hoppe, any "kids" of his would be senior citizens by now since he died in '59 at the age of 71.
 
cuetechasaurus said:
What is it that separates the calibur of play from the top players of yesteryear, from the players today? Is the USA going to have another Buddy Hall, Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Johnny Archer, Kim Davenport, etc.? It seems like the other countries are beginning to make a joke out of American poolplayers.
Click to expand...

'To be the best, you have to beat the best the WORLD has to offer'. This is not to take anything away from the good US 'ol timers of pool. Keep in mind that the old timers were known 'local' top talents of their time. It wouldn't be fair or accurate to label them as world champions as they nor the rest of the world were given the opportunity to compete against each other at that point in time. Today's pool is a more precise representation of what a 'world champion' is about. As the word 'world' implies, you play with the very best in the world.

Like many has mentioned in this thread, the demise of top pool play or players in the US is due to waning support for the sport. It is not given as much recognition/importance as that of mainstream-high sponsorhsip sports such as golf, football, basketball, baseball etc. In countries such as those in Europe and Asia-Pacific, the sport has government backing and victorious players are hailed as national heroes similar to gold medalist athletes in the summer and winter olympics. So there is not only a financial incentive involved but more importantly honor and national pride. In the three WPC's that Earl Strickland have won, how many times has he had audience with the US president of the time? Zero. Win the World Series or the NBA finals and you'll be having berakfast and taking photo ops with the president the following week.

Vices also play as an important factor. Knowing some and following a few of the latest WPC champions, a good number of them do not succumb to substance abuse. Gambling of course is another issue.

Sadly, pool in the US still has the stigma of the typical blue collar, back-room, smoke-filled, booze infested, shady character type of activity. Surprisingly poker has risen from that image but perhaps only because of the amount of money involved in those multi-million dollar tourneys.

No matter what generation and unless the perception and the waning support changes it is unlikely that the US will become a world pool powerhouse in the near future or any future.
 
Aaron_S said:
If you're talking about Willie Hoppe, any "kids" of his would be senior citizens by now since he died in '59 at the age of 71.
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Probably meant Hoppe, Alan Hopkins nickname.

I also think Sigel has two children.
 
You dont have a clue as to what you speak and talk about rude.You just want to hear yourself talk.
 
Hierovision said:
Wait for this generation to come out... it takes a while for reincarnations of greenleaf, wanderone jr., etc. to be born into the sport. Every generation gets smarter and more skilled than the last (don't tell the old-timers that!) so it's only a matter of time before the machines of the billiards world show themselves.
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Yes hierovision hit the nail on the head this new generation with the likes of cory deuel and others i mean when i watch cory play i see an absolute stroke of genius the newer players are very smart in this present moment as the older pros where very smart in their particular time frame and the more the american players play the foreignors they shall learn from them then take that knowledge put it with their own knowledge and goodnight! Just a side note: i have great respect for all players but i gotta root for the home team.
 
elizabeth said:
You dont have a clue as to what you speak and talk about rude.You just want to hear yourself talk.
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One poster...you should direct your post to someone....

BigDaddyInc. said:
Yes hierovision hit the nail on the head this new generation with the likes of cory deuel and others i mean when i watch cory play i see an absolute stroke of genius the newer players are very smart in this present moment as the older pros where very smart in their particular time frame and the more the american players play the foreignors they shall learn from them then take that knowledge put it with their own knowledge and goodnight! Just a side note: i have great respect for all players but i gotta root for the home team.
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I hope some up-and-comers start showing signs of raw skill...Corey Deuel however isn't exactly new to the scene, he does give me hope for US player success...I know of alot of US talent out there but I think some organized, disciplined practice will put them over the top...
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I think the great game of pocket billiards takes too long for us minuscule attention spanned Americans. Back in the day before Computers, instant EVERYTHING, microwaves, 500 satellite channels, pizza in 30 minutes or it's free, 30 second abs....etc, we liked things that took a little time to perfect.

Billiards went from 2 week long balk line tourneys, to week long 3 cushion events, to 200 point 14.1 challenge matches, to 1/2 hour 9ball races to 7, and throw 8 ball in there for laughs, and each one of those games in progression takes less time til you have a winner.

Our attention span is ever shortening til we all are watching 30 second hands of Texas Hold Em' and bichin about how long the guy takes to deliberate over how much to bet!

I dunno, give me hour long safety battles, and loooong runs, and I'm happy as a clam.....as my Mom would say....who was a spectator at more than one Mosconi tourney!!:D

Gerry
 
Gerry said:
I think the great game of pocket billiards takes too long for us minuscule attention spanned Americans. Back in the day before Computers, instant EVERYTHING, microwaves, 500 satellite channels, pizza in 30 minutes or it's free, 30 second abs....etc, we liked things that took a little time to perfect.

Billiards went from 2 week long balk line tourneys, to week long 3 cushion events, to 200 point 14.1 challenge matches, to 1/2 hour 9ball races to 7, and throw 8 ball in there for laughs, and each one of those games in progression takes less time til you have a winner.

Our attention span is ever shortening til we all are watching 30 second hands of Texas Hold Em' and bichin about how long the guy takes to deliberate over how much to bet!

I dunno, give me hour long safety battles, and loooong runs, and I'm happy as a clam.....as my Mom would say....who was a spectator at more than one Mosconi tourney!!:D

Gerry
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All the more reason for table jumping tv coverage....
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To add to the debate, I support the view that the lack of structure in the sport is a key factor in the relative decline of American pool versus Europe and Asia in particular. The fact is that other nations are developing strong billiard federations, and the results that they have been achieving speak for themselves. I remember going to Aruba in 1999 with two buddies (the best of which was a good 'A' player and robbing the whole island! They are well organized, however, and today you enter into Aruba at your peril unless you have a world class player in your retinue! I've seen a similar development in Puerto Rico over the last decade. We are seeing no comparable efforts to develop young players in the United States and the stature of American pool is suffering for it. Even the more structured practice routines of European players, for example, is a reflection of the fact that the European players have been emerging from a veritable system in which they have been training and receiving professional instruction.

One thing, however, cannot be left out of the equation--money. Until and unless more players can make a decent living from playing and instruction, American pool will not achieve the pinnacle of excellence in world competition. How many 200 ball runners do we know who have to work full-time in some other occupation? How many world-class and professional players still have to rely on gambling income because tournament prize money just can't pay the bills? How many A- and A players can't or won't commit the additional time and effort to become professional class players because there just isn't any percentage in it? And last of all, how many professional quality players still won't participate in tournaments for fear of destroying the gambling income on which they survive?

We have got to get outside sponsors into the game at all levels, national, regional and local. It is fine for the professional organizations to pursue R.J. Reynolds and the like, but what about local organizations seeking the sponsorship of the local hardware store? These are the type of things that we will have to do to revive our sport. The bottom line? More players have to be able to make some type of living from tournaments. If that can happen, watch out world!
 
I posted some time ago about introducing pool to young children and have the pool industry here in America support it. WELL here is my 2 cents it wont happen here...the reason..money. In Asia it is about pride..The people, the government support the pool player there because when a pool player win they are bringing a wave of pride to its people. here in america..if it doesnt make me a buck, why should i do it. There are two few organizations willing to not look at the profit margin and just make American proud of being number one. The only time we respond as a organized, pride filled nation is when something bad happens or Some one calls us out. Other than that we are what the Jappenese called us after the attack on Pearl Harbor. ... We are a sleeping Giant. I wish this sleeping Giant would wake up and support the sport i love and live for. I accept my responsibility as a player to train to get better..but i wonder how much money a 34 year old guy in Asia has to shell out to get a decent playing table and cue over there? How profit driven are they there? I only hope a wind of change will blow over American players and ask for the respect that other sports simply demand.
 
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I wouldnt say the overall skill/talent base in this country is weak. I think its as strong, probably stronger than its ever been. What we are seeing now, is the worlds insurgence into our little corner we call home. The games played are ours (9 ball, 14.1 etc), but that doesnt mean we dominate them, or ever really did. 40,50,60 years ago, you didnt see the masses of players coming over here from europe, and asia etc to play.
There were "WORLD CHAMPIONS"..... but were they really? If players from the other side of the globe arent playing, or invited to play..... you cant really call it a world championship. Other sports are more notorious for this than pool, its a self important ego thing that has been around for a very long time.
But to truely dominate in a field as strong as we are seeing in the world of pool today, would take a lifestyle, few if any american citizens live. Other folks have mentioned the other goverments backing their players. The sport for them is not just a game, its not a pastime..... hell its not even just a job for them. Its a measuring stick of them against us. I love this country, I really do. But the fact is, most of the rest of the world looks at us as arrogant, over valued, under educated heathens. And those observations arent without some validations. :eek: Kids in this country arent raised with the same work ethics, and moral values they were 50+ years ago. And it shows to the rest of the world. :(
Now, how this relates to pool...... if there was the dedication built into some of the kids of today, and Im not talking about what we think of as deication. Im not just talking about a love for the game. Im not just refering to long hours playing and practicing...... Im talking about hardcore something to prove motivation.....the "we" are better than "you" kind.... if there was that kind of dedication to dominate.....we would have players consistantly winning the world stage tournaments.
Chuck
 
So what now, Chuck? Want our future to rely on video games and sit on their rears and inhale radiation? Is that their eye candy for being good at hand-eye coordination? Or does the future of tommorow want a further understanding and respect for a piece of furniture with cushions and phenolic balls and learning how to control one's self. Seriously, you're comments are right on and I respect that, but it is comments like that that put the fade into the society of billiards really is. It is not like I do not play video games because I occasionally do, but if I had to choose whether to play a dull videogame and sit on my butt for hours trying to configure how to end this game or go on a 24 hr streak with me and a billiard table, I would go with billiards anytime. ;)
 
I blame McDonald's, poor nutrition = poor development = no talent.

Eric.A.

I guess its a not so happy meal after all.
 
fanthom said:
'To be the best, you have to beat the best the WORLD has to offer'. This is not to take anything away from the good US 'ol timers of pool. Keep in mind that the old timers were known 'local' top talents of their time. It wouldn't be fair or accurate to label them as world champions as they nor the rest of the world were given the opportunity to compete against each other at that point in time. Today's pool is a more precise representation of what a 'world champion' is about. As the word 'world' implies, you play with the very best in the world.

Like many has mentioned in this thread, the demise of top pool play or players in the US is due to waning support for the sport. It is not given as much recognition/importance as that of mainstream-high sponsorhsip sports such as golf, football, basketball, baseball etc. In countries such as those in Europe and Asia-Pacific, the sport has government backing and victorious players are hailed as national heroes similar to gold medalist athletes in the summer and winter olympics. So there is not only a financial incentive involved but more importantly honor and national pride. In the three WPC's that Earl Strickland have won, how many times has he had audience with the US president of the time? Zero. Win the World Series or the NBA finals and you'll be having berakfast and taking photo ops with the president the following week.

Vices also play as an important factor. Knowing some and following a few of the latest WPC champions, a good number of them do not succumb to substance abuse. Gambling of course is another issue.

Sadly, pool in the US still has the stigma of the typical blue collar, back-room, smoke-filled, booze infested, shady character type of activity. Surprisingly poker has risen from that image but perhaps only because of the amount of money involved in those multi-million dollar tourneys.

No matter what generation and unless the perception and the waning support changes it is unlikely that the US will become a world pool powerhouse in the near future or any future.
Click to expand...

As Jimmy Mataya said, "If pool had golf's money, they'd be the bums!"
Money is what it's all about. Put enough money out there for a sustained period of time and world class talent will come out of the woodwork.
Everyone talks about TV exposure. Without TV, no sponsorship. Years ago, great athletes took it upon themselves to promote their sport. Remember seeing a picture of Willie Hoppe playing billiards on a table that was mounted on top of a car or tennis great Rod Laver stringing a tennis net across a major street in NYC and playing Ken Roswall just for the exposure. Today, there is too much of the "what's in it for me" attitude. These athletes paved the way for the players of today to earn the huge incomes they make.
How much exposure and credibility would KT and the IPT have gotten if KT had said, "There's a 3 million dollar prize fund but one million of it will go to the American Cancer Society, not under my name, but under each player's name. (Of course, this couldn't happen because there is a "natural cure" for cancer.)
I was told Efren made the cover of Time magazine when he donated a lump of money to the tsunami victim relief fund.
How about a major table manufacturer taking their pro staff on the road and doing exhibitions and clinics (Play the Pro for X amount with all the proceeds going to charity) in major malls before a major tournament in the area with a certain percentage of any money (prize fund or donations) to go to a charity. The local TV stations would be crawling all over each other to cover this. Do this long enough and see what happens to pool's overall image.
You just can't buy that kind of exposure.
 
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As far as Asia goes, they treat the sport totally different here in South Korea. Table time is free if you're practicing, you only pay if you're competing. When you play someone, it is always handicapped. The loser always pays the table time, so you always have some incentive to try to win your set. You _never_ever_ever_ see two people trading games of 9 ball all night with no purpose, like you do in the states. You are practicing, or you are competing. And though it is always handicapped, you never have any reason to sandbag, because if you do, you pay the table time!

Then, let's talk about the people. If there is a pro player in your pool room, he will help you with your game. Everyone that I've seen play here, from C players on up, has decent fundamentals. Decent stance, grip, etc... Not all perfect or great, but you don't see the "league bangers" that you do in the states. That's because they all receive free instruction as soon as they pick up a cue with any kind of real interest. Everyone is looking to help everyone else improve. They're not afraid to tell you what's wrong with your game. The first time I walked into a pool room here, I had 2 different pros tell me "You're quite good, but you really need to work on A, B, and C. Then you will be better."

Yeah, the attitudes are a bit different.:)
 
Many reasons for the decline in American domination of Pool.

Number one, I agree with the statement that the rest of the world has made huge advances, while the USA has not.

Number two, why would a good young athlete in this country chose pool, when many other sports offer much greater monetary rewards. Pool remains a choice primarily for young men and women who do not excel at other sports. There are exceptions to this of course.

Number three, the older players mentioned had a background in 14.1 first and also learned games like Three Cushion Billiards. This made them better players overall. Notice almost all the top players of yesteryear came from the Eastern part of the country where 14.1 was so strong.

I agree with the poster who said that if there were a major pool tour in the USA, many young people would get involved in the game. Not a sham tour, but a true national (or International) tour. Look at what the WPBA has done for women's pool. All the good young girls picking up cues. The level of play among the women has increased rapidly since the advent of the WPBA, especially with the ESPN coverage of all events.

That being said, there is always the possibility of a great player developing here. I like Shane a lot, Justin B. and Austin Murphy.
 
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