The value of "going home"...aka finishing your stroke!
- Thread starter Scott Lee
- Start date
Lou...Talk about putting words in someone's mouth! LMAO Exactly where did I say I had "taught something to 1000 or 10000 guys". There are many others who have espoused this heresy too...Randyg and Mark Wilson among them (but certainly not the only ones). I suppose they are full of "hubris" (or your nicer term...BS) too? Would you react the same way if Randy or Mark made the same offer to you? I didn't invent the wheel...but I've sure learned how to get it roll smoothly...and shared it with a bunch of others too.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
I think one hallmark of a great communicator is when the conversation turns antagonistic, they are able to steer the conversation back to a friendly tone. This often requires a significant degree of humility, genuine selflessness, and defenselessness, which is even more rare than good communication skills. Something for all involved to ponder...
Also, to help you guys out, here is a bit of clarification:
Lou, Scott said that his method has helped 1000's of people. He did not necessarily mean that he personally helped all 1000. What I believe he meant is that the method he teaches is also taught by the whole "family" of SPF instructors, including Randy G and others. Your point about whether or not it actually "stuck" and offered long term, lasting, and consistent help to each of those people, however, is fair. I will say that Scott has asked me how I am doing in my game a couple of times in the approx 2 years since I've taken a lesson. However, he had to rely on *my* feedback, which may or may not be accurate.
Scott, I don't think Lou was intending to say that you did or didn't teach a specific number of people. He was saying that regardless of how many it was, whether it be 1000 or 10000, that it may be the case that the knowledge imparted was discarded, lost, or they might have just been the type of people who just wouldn't say "it stunk, I got nothing out of it" even if they felt this way. I think his point was that though you may have had X number of students, the *success* rate is likely less than 100%.
In any case, I would refer back to my first point in this post
Good luck guys,
KMRUNOUT
Also, to help you guys out, here is a bit of clarification:
Lou, Scott said that his method has helped 1000's of people. He did not necessarily mean that he personally helped all 1000. What I believe he meant is that the method he teaches is also taught by the whole "family" of SPF instructors, including Randy G and others. Your point about whether or not it actually "stuck" and offered long term, lasting, and consistent help to each of those people, however, is fair. I will say that Scott has asked me how I am doing in my game a couple of times in the approx 2 years since I've taken a lesson. However, he had to rely on *my* feedback, which may or may not be accurate.
Scott, I don't think Lou was intending to say that you did or didn't teach a specific number of people. He was saying that regardless of how many it was, whether it be 1000 or 10000, that it may be the case that the knowledge imparted was discarded, lost, or they might have just been the type of people who just wouldn't say "it stunk, I got nothing out of it" even if they felt this way. I think his point was that though you may have had X number of students, the *success* rate is likely less than 100%.
In any case, I would refer back to my first point in this post
Good luck guys,
KMRUNOUT
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Earl also does that on power shots. As long as its straight and consistent, there's no problem.
Good point, well made (even if it is not easy advice to follow!) :thumbup:
Those interested in improving their skills should try the finish position advice given in this thread. It's good and proper technique that just might improve your game.
The totally unnecessary pecker contest that Lou decided to make of this thread (by throwing out bait which randyg took) needn't deter from the information offered.
A smooth straight follow through is rewarded by overall improvement in playing fundamentals... and NO I don't have years of credentials. I'm a beginner whose game has been improved by following advice, using what works for me and laying aside that which doesn't.
The totally unnecessary pecker contest that Lou decided to make of this thread (by throwing out bait which randyg took) needn't deter from the information offered.
A smooth straight follow through is rewarded by overall improvement in playing fundamentals... and NO I don't have years of credentials. I'm a beginner whose game has been improved by following advice, using what works for me and laying aside that which doesn't.
Following through aka finishing position will happen naturally with a good controlled stroke. If you don't follow through it just means you didn't stroke it to begin with and thus bad speed and higher chance to rattle a pocket. Nothing new, but solid advice.
Thanks Kerry...I defer to your diplomacy. There are many instructors who advocate this kind of swing, and they are not necessarily all BCA or SPF. It is a proven way of training yourself to deliver the cue accurately and repeatedly, regardless of stroke speed. I will certainly state catagorically that it is not a 'holy grail', nor is it something I invented (although the concept of a personal shooting template is mine, and something I'm very proud of). Non-SPF teachers may call it something else too, but the rudimentary benefits of the pendulum stroke have been taught for decades...at least. While I can't speak for anyone outside of our SPF group, I can say that those students who "get it" tend to stick with it, because there is an associative long term benefit in how they play...as mentioned by yourself, as a single example. We do have 1000's of those examples, among our group, and I'm sure there must be 1000's more, when you take into consideration all of the people using this process.
That said, in the myriad MILLIONS of players out there, overall, we have likely barely made a dent. Why? Mostly because poolplayers, as a group, do not perceive the 'need' for pool lessons. The common thought is, "Pool lessons? I don't need pool lessons. I KNOW how to play. I need a new cue/Predator/pick your name etc." It's a funny analogy with golf, as you ask most anyone how you become better at golf, and the immediate response is "take golf lessons", rather than "go spend $1500 on new clubs". So it's a different perception altogether. We do know that the better player you are already, the harder it is to get significant (whether psychological or physical) improvement. The beginner/intermediate players see huge jumps in their ability...which, of course, equals more fun on the table. Does that mean that this process has no benefit to offer higher level players? Not at all. In fact we have testimony from hundreds of great players (expert, semi pro...and even pro) that this process provided a great deal of help to them...if for no other reason, than understanding personal diagnostic tools, that allow you to self-correct errors immediately. You are just one example, and I am proud of YOU...you did the work that allowed the information to be of long term benefit to you and your pool game.
No instructor can make someone a better player. What we can do, is provide a base to work from, the knowledge of what you're doing (good and bad) now, as trained observers (using video analysis), and help point you in the right direction. It's a constant learning experience for all of us...instructors and players. When we stop learning, well...simply put, we stop learning. This was the whole basis of my offer to Lou...merely to share ideas (and perhaps see something from a different perspective), one 'teacher' to another. I'm pretty sure that's how it's been done for 100's of years. I apologize to Lou if it seemed like anything else. Thanks for your input and keen observations Kerry! I'm looking forward to seeing you next week in Boston!:thumbup:
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
That said, in the myriad MILLIONS of players out there, overall, we have likely barely made a dent. Why? Mostly because poolplayers, as a group, do not perceive the 'need' for pool lessons. The common thought is, "Pool lessons? I don't need pool lessons. I KNOW how to play. I need a new cue/Predator/pick your name etc." It's a funny analogy with golf, as you ask most anyone how you become better at golf, and the immediate response is "take golf lessons", rather than "go spend $1500 on new clubs". So it's a different perception altogether. We do know that the better player you are already, the harder it is to get significant (whether psychological or physical) improvement. The beginner/intermediate players see huge jumps in their ability...which, of course, equals more fun on the table. Does that mean that this process has no benefit to offer higher level players? Not at all. In fact we have testimony from hundreds of great players (expert, semi pro...and even pro) that this process provided a great deal of help to them...if for no other reason, than understanding personal diagnostic tools, that allow you to self-correct errors immediately. You are just one example, and I am proud of YOU...you did the work that allowed the information to be of long term benefit to you and your pool game.
No instructor can make someone a better player. What we can do, is provide a base to work from, the knowledge of what you're doing (good and bad) now, as trained observers (using video analysis), and help point you in the right direction. It's a constant learning experience for all of us...instructors and players. When we stop learning, well...simply put, we stop learning. This was the whole basis of my offer to Lou...merely to share ideas (and perhaps see something from a different perspective), one 'teacher' to another. I'm pretty sure that's how it's been done for 100's of years. I apologize to Lou if it seemed like anything else. Thanks for your input and keen observations Kerry! I'm looking forward to seeing you next week in Boston!:thumbup:
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
I think one hallmark of a great communicator is when the conversation turns antagonistic, they are able to steer the conversation back to a friendly tone. This often requires a significant degree of humility, genuine selflessness, and defenselessness, which is even more rare than good communication skills. Something for all involved to ponder...
Also, to help you guys out, here is a bit of clarification:
Lou, Scott said that his method has helped 1000's of people. He did not necessarily mean that he personally helped all 1000. What I believe he meant is that the method he teaches is also taught by the whole "family" of SPF instructors, including Randy G and others. Your point about whether or not it actually "stuck" and offered long term, lasting, and consistent help to each of those people, however, is fair. I will say that Scott has asked me how I am doing in my game a couple of times in the approx 2 years since I've taken a lesson. However, he had to rely on *my* feedback, which may or may not be accurate.
Scott, I don't think Lou was intending to say that you did or didn't teach a specific number of people. He was saying that regardless of how many it was, whether it be 1000 or 10000, that it may be the case that the knowledge imparted was discarded, lost, or they might have just been the type of people who just wouldn't say "it stunk, I got nothing out of it" even if they felt this way. I think his point was that though you may have had X number of students, the *success* rate is likely less than 100%.
In any case, I would refer back to my first point in this post
Good luck guys,
KMRUNOUT
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Scott,
Tap tap tap...very well said. How do you argue with that lol?
Perhaps a great example that sums up this thread is this: When we first met for a lesson, the first thing you pointed out about my stoke was a pronounced elbow drop. There was a time when I developed that *on purpose*. I certainly attempted to emulate the pros. Also, I *studied* my body and mechanics extensively. I used my own video analysis, and built my stance and stroke in slow motion over countless hours away from the pool table--just holding my cue in the air or on a conference table ha ha. A limitation I have is that I'm tall with long arms, but play with a standard length cue. Unfortunately these things together make a perpendicular arm and pinned elbow at least difficult if not impossible for me. Also, I had spent some 10 years or so developing the stroke I had, and I didn't want to reinvent the wheel, just learn some new stuff. You conceded the point that my physical makeup together with my too short cue might make the pinned elbow tough. You totally accepted my request to leave that for now and work on other things. The result? I got some excellent other things that I incorporated into my game the helped A LOT. We instead focused a lot on practice strokes and my routine (using the same number of strokes), eye patterns, and the home position. The home position stuff also worked particularly well for my friend who took a lesson with you soon after.
The point? On the surface we disagreed about a particular point (whether or not to pin the elbow). After some more discussion and investigation, it turned out our view was not so different as it appeared on the surface. The bottom line is that neither of us allowed this to get in the way of exchanging information and of me learning some new things that helped my game. Ironically, I believe my elbow drop has lessened over the last year or two. I'd say my accuracy is better than ever
Thanks again Scott, I am also looking forward to our lesson!
KMRUNOUT
Tap tap tap...very well said. How do you argue with that lol?
Perhaps a great example that sums up this thread is this: When we first met for a lesson, the first thing you pointed out about my stoke was a pronounced elbow drop. There was a time when I developed that *on purpose*. I certainly attempted to emulate the pros. Also, I *studied* my body and mechanics extensively. I used my own video analysis, and built my stance and stroke in slow motion over countless hours away from the pool table--just holding my cue in the air or on a conference table ha ha. A limitation I have is that I'm tall with long arms, but play with a standard length cue. Unfortunately these things together make a perpendicular arm and pinned elbow at least difficult if not impossible for me. Also, I had spent some 10 years or so developing the stroke I had, and I didn't want to reinvent the wheel, just learn some new stuff. You conceded the point that my physical makeup together with my too short cue might make the pinned elbow tough. You totally accepted my request to leave that for now and work on other things. The result? I got some excellent other things that I incorporated into my game the helped A LOT. We instead focused a lot on practice strokes and my routine (using the same number of strokes), eye patterns, and the home position. The home position stuff also worked particularly well for my friend who took a lesson with you soon after.
The point? On the surface we disagreed about a particular point (whether or not to pin the elbow). After some more discussion and investigation, it turned out our view was not so different as it appeared on the surface. The bottom line is that neither of us allowed this to get in the way of exchanging information and of me learning some new things that helped my game. Ironically, I believe my elbow drop has lessened over the last year or two. I'd say my accuracy is better than ever
Thanks again Scott, I am also looking forward to our lesson!
KMRUNOUT
1. I didn't decide anything. All I said was that I was a non-believer and wanted to pass on his offer. Then he started thinking he was Terry Fator.
2. If I were using bait, I wouldn't use bait that stinky
Lou Figueroa
Wow...what an awesome compliment. Terry Fator is the BEST in the world, at what he does! I don't know if he attempts to teach others, or not. His is a singular, simply amazing skill!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
who is Terry Fator???
DCP
DCP
Saw him in Vegas just a couple of weeks ago. He is a pretty amazing ventriloquist, impersonator AND singer.
Lou Figueroa
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luckwouldhaveit...Just to clarify one thing. You can followthrough without finishing your stroke to the home position. You cannot, however, finish your stroke, to the home position, without following through. The amount of followthrough is meaningless (as long as you finish). It's different for each person, based on how your arm works with your body. The key, is that, done correctly, the followthrough/finish (where your tips ends up) will be the same distance on almost every shot.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
No argument there Lou! We saw his show in Vegas too (a year or so ago). How a guy can sing full blown opera, with his mouth closed, is beyond me!
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
zombiewoff
Registered
For what it's worth
I do not often post as one can see from my post count (or lack thereof) but I've been paying attention to my finish since this thread first appeared and I must say that for me, its made quite a difference; all good. I've heard and read about a good follow through for years and thought I was doing that, but the original post actually put into words a way for me to tell that I was doing it the same each time and a way to make it repeatable. I now have a finish position that was never there before. I know that the few days that I've been paying attention to my finish is not enough to get it ingrained as second nature, but it has already made a difference in my game. It is such a simple thing, but had never been presented in a way that was so easy to understand and repeat; it gives instant feedback too. While I've learned many things on this forum, this one thread has made more of an impact on my game than any other that I've read thus far. Regardless of others views, I for one am thankful for this thread and the information that has been presented. I'm under no illusion that my game is great, but it is now a bit better. Thank you!
I do not often post as one can see from my post count (or lack thereof) but I've been paying attention to my finish since this thread first appeared and I must say that for me, its made quite a difference; all good. I've heard and read about a good follow through for years and thought I was doing that, but the original post actually put into words a way for me to tell that I was doing it the same each time and a way to make it repeatable. I now have a finish position that was never there before. I know that the few days that I've been paying attention to my finish is not enough to get it ingrained as second nature, but it has already made a difference in my game. It is such a simple thing, but had never been presented in a way that was so easy to understand and repeat; it gives instant feedback too. While I've learned many things on this forum, this one thread has made more of an impact on my game than any other that I've read thus far. Regardless of others views, I for one am thankful for this thread and the information that has been presented. I'm under no illusion that my game is great, but it is now a bit better. Thank you!
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