The Wisdom Of Larry Hubbart

justadub said:
That's all well and good, but "that's the way its always been" doesn't answer the question.

With all the deep thinkers here, we should be able to get to the point of this. Why is slop ok in 9-ball, but so terribly wrong in 8-ball?

Again, I'm not campaigning for slop, despite the fact that I'm an APA player. We play call pocket all the time here, hell, the 8 even has to go in clean. I'm used to it. I simply wonder why there is all this hue and cry about slop in 8-ball, compared to 9-ball.

Give Paul credit, he's not afraid to try things. Just because "that's the way its always been done" doesn't seem to faze him.
Click to expand...

Bruce,

Since there is only the one ball at a time that must be hit & that allows for easier snookers, etc that are even tougher to get out from... slopping the ball if hit seems to make some sense, even though I hate the entire philosophy.

When the group I play with, & it is a large group at multiple locations play 8 ball, we play call your EXACT shot. If not made exactly as called it's no good & on coin tables is loss of turn & loss of game on the 8 ball. On a hall table the 'no good' pocketed ball is spotted along with the loss of turn.

One either plays the game as a game of skill or one plays it as a game of luck to just pass the time for a little fun. To each his own. I can play it both ways however one wants to play it but don't say that you beat me when you slop it up, because we are not playing a competitive game with slops. It's just to pass the time & have fun. Instead of saying that you beat me, just say that you slopped me.

The 'you' is not you, Bruce, it is just the general 'you'.

To each his own but don't attempt to mix the two into one game because they are different games. Sort of like tackle football & one hand touch.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick

PS The whole post is not directed to you specifically Bruce. It just started out sort of trying to answer your question
 
Last edited:
A few seem to be saying "slop hardly ever comes into play and the better player wins anyway"
That sounds like... "call shot and slop 8 ball are basically the same, so what's the big deal?"

If that's true then why change anything? Under call-shot rules, "slop [never] comes into play
and the better player wins anyway" So why does it need to be altered?
Is 8 ball a broken game that needs to be fixed? I never heard of that.

Are you guys playing 8 ball and not having any fun? I never have that problem.

Dub:
Why is slop ok in 9-ball, but so terribly wrong in 8-ball?
Click to expand...

Well first, who said it's OK in 9-ball? Lots of people hate 9 ball because of the slop.
>>>> http://lmgtfy.com/?q="hate+9+ball"+site:forums.azbilliards.com

But let's say it is OK. Why is it ok for one game and not the other?
Let me put it to you this way, why is ranch dressing OK on salad but not on ice cream?
 
justadub said:
That's all well and good, but "that's the way its always been" doesn't answer the question.

With all the deep thinkers here, we should be able to get to the point of this. Why is slop ok in 9-ball, but so terribly wrong in 8-ball?

Again, I'm not campaigning for slop, despite the fact that I'm an APA player. We play call pocket all the time here, hell, the 8 even has to go in clean. I'm used to it. I simply wonder why there is all this hue and cry about slop in 8-ball, compared to 9-ball.

Give Paul credit, he's not afraid to try things. Just because "that's the way its always been done" doesn't seem to faze him.
Click to expand...

Calling every detail of a shot (banks, kisses, etc.) creates more problems than does calling nothing.

I've seen folks quit a 'call nothing' game but I've seen fights over what details to call. I once shot a two railer for the win in $5 8-ball and because the 8 touched the pocket side as it went in, our opponents claimed it went 3, not 2, rails. They paid us anyway.;)


Jeff Livingston
 
Paul Schofield said:
Larry never succumbed to the pressure mounted by pool players to call the pocket on solids and stripes in Eight-Ball. Larry was a knowledgeable player and an astute businessman. He understood better than anyone the downfalls (there are a lot of them) of calling balls.
Can someone please identify a sport where a player or a team is required to call their play or plan and have to follow through with it or get penalized? I can’t think of one. I refer to the wisdom of all the sports that are more popular than ours for guidance in this area. Those sports and Larry Hubbard must know or have known something that the pool community does not.
I am taking Larry’s approach a step further. I am running weekly Eight-Ball tournaments in my place and we are not calling anything, NOT EVEN THE 8 BALL. It is going very well.
Click to expand...


I don't know how being an astute business man can be a factor in calling balls on a pool table, but in my opinion the eight ball should be called to avoid, or reduce, the slop factor.
Having said that, it may help in moving things along when new, or otherwise inexperienced players, are at the table. :smile:
 
Tramp Steamer said:
I don't know how being an astute business man can be a factor in calling balls on a pool table,.
Click to expand...

A good player watches the game. An astute businessman watches the player. Knowing what works and is most pleasing to the most amount of people was key to his success.
 
Ok, its still not really being answered, and that's cool.

Let me flip it around. Why isn't 9-ball a call shot game? It's my impression that folks seem to feel 9-ball is a more challenging game, shouldnt more capable players be able to call their pocket in 9-ball?

Again, just playing devils advocate. Not complaining in the least.
 
justadub said:
Ok, its still not really being answered, and that's cool.

Let me flip it around. Why isn't 9-ball a call shot game? It's my impression that folks seem to feel 9-ball is a more challenging game, shouldnt more capable players be able to call their pocket in 9-ball?

Again, just playing devils advocate. Not complaining in the least.
Click to expand...

Even though I started this thread, I am not going near this one.
 
justadub said:
Ok, its still not really being answered, and that's cool.

Let me flip it around. Why isn't 9-ball a call shot game? It's my impression that folks seem to feel 9-ball is a more challenging game, shouldnt more capable players be able to call their pocket in 9-ball?

Again, just playing devils advocate. Not complaining in the least.
Click to expand...

8ball was always looked at a more skilled game. 9 ball was always a fast gambling game. Sometimes, especially in the south, it was 6 ball instead of 9 ball. With slop, a much better player could shoot caroms and banks as two way shots on the money balls (usually 5 and 9) and make them look like slop. Thereby keeping his "mark" in the game figuring that the luck would have to end at some point.
 
Paul Schofield said:
Larry never succumbed to the pressure mounted by pool players to call the pocket on solids and stripes in Eight-Ball. Larry was a knowledgeable player and an astute businessman. He understood better than anyone the downfalls (there are a lot of them) of calling balls.

Can someone please identify a sport where a player or a team is required to call their play or plan and have to follow through with it or get penalized? I can’t think of one. I refer to the wisdom of all the sports that are more popular than ours for guidance in this area. Those sports and Larry Hubbard must know or have known something that the pool community does not.

I am taking Larry’s approach a step further. I am running weekly Eight-Ball tournaments in my place and we are not calling anything, NOT EVEN THE 8 BALL. It is going very well.
Click to expand...


Tale as old as time
You must ride the nine
But please call the eight
No need to create
New rules for the games

Lou Figueroa
with apologies
to Mr. Mouse
 
justadub said:
Ok, its still not really being answered, and that's cool.
Let me flip it around. Why isn't 9-ball a call shot game? It's my impression that folks seem to feel 9-ball is a more challenging game, shouldnt more capable players be able to call their pocket in 9-ball?
Again, just playing devils advocate. Not complaining in the least.
Click to expand...

This is vaguely related, bear with me. A while ago I was in a discussion about
8-on-the-break being a win and I said something like "we should just ban instant-win balls for all games!"
Someone (wish I could find it) gave me a sort of smartass answer but
it made his point, and changed my view.

"Yeah! No more instant win on the break! And call every ball in every game.
Also, it's unfair when someone can make several balls but get no credit for them and lose.
So let's credit them for every ball pocketed, like give points or something.
And really, why should the 8 or 9 ball be special? One point for every ball, regardless of the number on it!
And of course just 15 balls isn't long enough to be a true test of skill so let's have the game
span multiple racks, and go to like 150 points or something!

The point being, if you change every element of a game to remove luck and encourage skill,
what you end up with is straight pool.

But, not everyone wants that.
Each game fits a niche and is a blend of challenge (how hard is it to run out), length, and luck.
So we have different games to fit different needs, and that way everyone
can find something they enjoy.

9b for those who love fast games + lots of luck.
8b for for those love fast games but less luck.
14.1 for those who want slow games with almost no luck.

You take away slop in 9b, or add it to 8b, you wreck the balance.
Guys like me in the middle group would end up frustrated if my best option is sloppy 8b,
a game where you can miss and still keep shooting,
and you can screw up position and still keep shooting.

When I'm in the mood for THAT much luck I say "hey let's play 9b".
When I'm in the mood for less luck, I say "hey let's play 8b".
 
CreeDo said:
Under call-shot rules, "slop [never] comes into play
and the better player wins anyway" So why does it need to be altered?
Is 8 ball a broken game that needs to be fixed? I never heard of that.
Click to expand...

Fewer rules, the better. A snapshot of my tournament: In the first 1000 balls pocketed, 2 balls were fluked into a pocket. After that experience, I realized how right on Larry Hubbart was. The rule is a needless burden that gets in the way of people enjoying the game. Eight-Ball was originally devised as a no-call shot game. I am sticking with that in my tournaments.

I try many different things. I have to.
 
L. Ron Hubbard, Larry Hubbard, Old Mother Hubbard and her freakin' cupboard; who the hell is this guy and what does he have to do with changing an already good set of rules just to suit his fancy.
 
Not sure most players care what rules they play by. As long as the rules are understood and everyone plays by the same rules. Still dont think I have heard what the races were. In an even race the better player with usually win even with slop. If races are handicapped the better player usually wins. There is slop in every game except maybe 10 ball. Dont know all the rules but I think if you call a pocket and miss your opponent can shot or make you shoot. So you can only accidentally safe yourself.
 
Paul Schofield said:
Fewer rules, the better. A snapshot of my tournament: In the first 1000 balls pocketed, 2 balls were fluked into a pocket. After that experience, I realized how right on Larry Hubbart was. The rule is a needless burden that gets in the way of people enjoying the game. Eight-Ball was originally devised as a no-call shot game. I am sticking with that in my tournaments.

I try many different things. I have to.
Click to expand...

Not 2 times in a thousand have I met someone who will try to move the cue ball when someone isn't looking.
But just because it's rare, doesn't mean we don't need a rule.

Also, someone tracked the results of [over] a thousand individual shots in your tournaments?
No offense, I'm skeptical... It's hard to get someone to track individual shots even in major pro events.
Maybe you heard about 2 of them, and another 50 went unmentioned.

And were the 2 times you heard about complaints?
 
CreeDo said:
Not 2 times in a thousand have I met someone who will try to move the cue ball when someone isn't looking.
But just because it's rare, doesn't mean we don't need a rule.

Also, someone tracked the results of [over] a thousand individual shots in your tournaments?
No offense, I'm skeptical... It's hard to get someone to track individual shots even in major pro events.
Maybe you heard about 2 of them, and another 50 went unmentioned.

And were the 2 times you heard about complaints?
Click to expand...

I tracked it for the first two tournaments. After that the percentage of fluked balls increased slightly as players used new strategies with new rules.

I can tell that I have made an improvement. I can tell, not by counting balls, but by watching players.
 
Last edited:
Not to derail, but I don't see the difference in the table in that Chinese Masters match. Are the pockets cut differently?

BTW, that is a really enjoyable match.

Back to your regularly scheduled debate.
 
justadub said:
Not to derail, but I don't see the difference in the table in that Chinese Masters match. Are the pockets cut differently?

BTW, that is a really enjoyable match.

Back to your regularly scheduled debate.
Click to expand...

They are cut different, the pockets are rounded. Match isn't bad, love the utube.
I searched the google, and it said that 9 ball is an old game with the slop built in from the get go. I asked why, and it said stop asking questions that' the way it is, call your shots and don't be a sissy.
 
I have to ask: How can all you die hard call-your-shot Eight-Ball players buy into the smash break and the slopped balls on the break. Here is the most important shot in the game and what kind of shot is it? It is a slop shot. Isn't this contrary to to the spirit of the game you believe it to be? I have never gotten a plausible answer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top