The Women of AZB: 8-ball Superstars

I don't agree in allowing the Pros to play in the Grand Master's amateur event.

The Pros have their own events in Vegas and it should have remained that way. If they want to have a third event, then organize a bar table 8 ball tournament for them as well - free to all spectators.

For the standard that was before of a Grand Master, they are basicailly in a no win situation. And if you go back and lookup what the Grand Master category was suppose to be when it was brought into the BCAPL, it is no where near it now. To go out to Vegas and play in the single events, you need to be there by Friday. Then your singles event tournament is done by Tuesday at the lastest with the Men's Master Team event not starting up again until Friday at the end of that week. They are showing up 7 days early to the team event for a singles tournament that is filled with Pros.

So, again, the person that previously went out to Vegas to play in the Grand Master event did so with an opportunity to make money or win the singles tournament prior to the team event. Now their chances are greatly diminished, if they have any at all with all the Pros entered. The setup as it stands how has basically taken the former Grand Master player out of the running to make a trip to Vegas any type of a financial gain.

If you love pool, then they should go. But to go and expect to win any money is nearly impossible.

Hell - maybe they should let the Pros play in the $10, $20 and $50 mini tournaments in the back room. Everyone is stating how it feels so great for a chance to play the Pros.
 
Btw, the guy that won the Grand Masters division (going undefeated beating SVB & Roberto Gomez on his way to the win) was NOT one of the touring pros that was there to also play in the Pro 10-Ball event.

And I think it's safe to argue that there is a decent number of "Grand Master" players that SHOULD be playing in pro events but choose to remain Amateur to stay under the radar.
 
http://www.azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showplayer2009.php?playernum=2286

According to AZ, he hasn't cashed in a tournament since 2002.

But for many players, it is not that they choose to remain amateur - it is that they cannot afford to travel and be a Pro.

Plus, Charlie's event was by invitation only - I suppose if he had invited all of the Grand Master amateur players to be involved in his event, then I would see it more of a non issue.

And this is not to say that a Pro will will a Grand Master event every time they enter playing 8 ball on a bar table, but they surely have to like their chances over an amateur player.
 
They did open up the event at the end and offered the remaining spots to ANYONE at the Riv that wanted to play. Yes, it was invitation only initially, but they did have open spots at the end that some people signed up for on-site.
 
CrisDeLaGarza said:
They did open up the event at the end and offered the remaining spots to ANYONE at the Riv that wanted to play. Yes, it was invitation only initially, but they did have open spots at the end that some people signed up for on-site.
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I wish I would have known as I would have staked you to play. :)

Maybe next year, DP will make that known BEFORE the tournament so a list of alternates can be available. Just a thought.
 
Hey QueenB....watched you girls play a little on Saturday and was very impressed. Everyone on your team was very pretty!! Your play was extremely solid, and the demeanor of each one you was very professional. Definitely a great shot in the arm for our beloved sport!! Love beautiful women who know how to play!!

As for the BCA.................Grand Masters, Masters, Open player status. YIKES!!!!!!!!!

Pro players playing in the Grand Master level......I totally understand. I think that is right on target.

Masters being dropped into the open................I completely disagree. There has to be 200 or so stone cold Masters in the open, and another 50-60 known ability players who should be playing Masters. I think once a Master always a Master. Never understood guys/gals who wanted to get dropped.

The open team thing...............well how many of the Mixed open teams had more than one Master (in hiding) on them? The winning team had 1 Grand Master / 3 definite Masters (2 were dropped this year) / and 1 border-line Master. Of course there "STATUS" was 1 grand and 4 open players....................but we all have google!!!!! and if you know the players, you know there skill level.

Not sure what is right or wrong. You need a strong team to win, just think the system needs a little looking into!!!

Mike
 
cardiac kid said:
This is my pet peave. How can a touring, regular member of the WPBA be allowed to play in a BCAPL AMATUER event? Sorry, this sucks!
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Lyn,

Cris D. is NOT a touring regular member of WPBA. She still needs to reach her pro status. She may have won qualifiers to compete in WPBA, so she is still a "Semi-Pro". And, her game has improved in a lightening speed past few months and she admits that she learned a lot from her famous Professional boyfriend:).

There are lots of players who competed in the past in the Open division in BCAPL National whose competed in pro events more often than Cris with no success...

Certain status in ranking have to be earned and proved... Just like WPBA has certain requirements for a competing Semi-Pros to earn their Pro status...

It's impossible to be right and correct all the time, but BCAPL tries their hardest to give everyone equal opportunity and treat everyone the same. Bill Stock spends endless hours researching every member's "recorded sucess" in the past that everyone is in their best division to compete. Not everyone is going to agree, because we all have different opinions. That is why we still argue who is the best American Pro Player... Some say Earl S. and others Johnny A. Then there are the extreme left wing who claims SVB.

I am not making excuse or validating righteousness. Just letting you know there are certain rules and procedures.

S.
 
watchez said:
I don't agree in allowing the Pros to play in the Grand Master's amateur event.

If you love pool, then they should go. But to go and expect to win any money is nearly impossible.

Wachez,

Aren't you at least contradicting yourself here? Just a little?

What really constitute America's "Professional Pool Player"?

Why just paying a $100.00 a year membership to UPA?

What about Florida's Pro Tour? I think if you can pay the entry anyone can play... even me!

Is there really evena valid Pro Tour in US that really can really provide a living cost for the Pros and their family?

Some people say they are professional pool player because they don't have a job... and don't pay TAX like you and me... They just hit tournament to tournament and gamble. It may not be a great living but, they somehow support themselves..

So... what about people who's going to the National Championship with an agenda to make money every year? Are they professional?

I know plenty of "Pro-Caliber" players who doesn't Go-Pro... (hmm, just pay and sign here) because it will shorten their "gambling" chances...I know some of these players used to earn a year's income just living in Vegas for a month during APA, BCAPL and VNEA national championship and snapping off mini tournaments and gambling with "Suckers". So... Are these people professional or amateur?

S.

Wachez, we're still buds:wink:
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In general I am most impressed with the level of play of the top women players period! I remember watching the Women Pro's play in Vegas when the event was held in the Riviera Penthouse. It was tough to watch. Big pockets were the norm. Not a single full rack runout even with the balls fully spread. Today everything has changed and for the better. I watched many of the top league players. They are great!

My problem with the inclusion of the Pro's both in the Masters and Grand Masters has more to do with the lack of vertical structure than ability. I want to watch the best regardless. Somewhere, fairness has to be included. Watching a friend play and lose to Kelly Fisher in the Masters final a couple of years ago set me off. Kelly was the World Womens Snooker Champion. Why was she allowed to play in an amatuer event? Kelly also had a vendor's booth at the event. Did one have anything to do with the other?

Sorry for the rant. An expaination may have been due.

Lyn
 
Hi Folks,

It appears I am in error on the Kelly Fisher match. I made it appear as if she was allowed to play in an amatuer event in trade for a vendor booth. I am wrong. Another of my posts commented that entries were down in all events at the BCAPL's. Some of the events actually had increases in player entry's. I apologize for my errors. I will check my figures more closely in the future before posting. My intent was to question and bring a response. I succeded beyond my imagination. Someone is watching and reading what we say. Obviously, someone really cares!

One question that remains unresolved is who and what is a professional pool player. My definition evidently is far different than some others.

Lyn
 
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sunnyday said:
Lyn, Cris D. is NOT a touring regular member of WPBA. She still needs to reach her pro status. She may have won qualifiers to compete in WPBA, so she is still a "Semi-Pro". And, her game has improved in a lightening speed past few months and she admits that she learned a lot from her famous Professional boyfriend:).S.
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Sunny,

You're correct. However I was directly refering to Liz Ford, not Cris, as re-reading my original quote will show. Incidentally, who is Cris' boyfriend? Can I guess Tony Robles?

Lyn
 
cardiac kid said:
Sunny,

You're correct. However I was directly refering to Liz Ford, not Cris, as re-reading my original quote will show. Incidentally, who is Cris' boyfriend? Can I guess Tony Robles?

Lyn
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Lyn,

Liz Ford who is rated a Master level, finished her WPBA 2008 season ranked 49... Her and her partner won the Master Scotch double.

Not to take anything away from Professional Players - general, but how often do you think Pro Players play 8 ball on bar tables? Do you think because they compete professionally all the time playing 9 balls on 9 ft table, they should convert to 8 ball on 7 ft with ease? Anyone who think this way doesn't really know pool that well.

I asked Dennis Orcollo who was at BCAPL national competing in World Masters and Predator 10 ball why he didn't compete in BCAPL Grand Master's Single since it was open to professional players. He replied by saying it was too difficult to adjust back and forth from 7 to 9 foot back and forth.

There are some Professional Players play exceptional Bar Table pool and many of these players have played in "Amateur Leagues" for years... Like SHANE VAN BOENING, (by the way Chris's boyfriend) and many others.

There are many bar table specialists that Professional Players dodge matching up on the Bar Table. So... where do these players fit in? They can beat Pros on 7 ft table but not really pro players...

I maybe over stepping my boundaries and be crucified for this because, I don't have the facts... I don't write the rules. Don't assume because I may know certain people that my opinion as fact. Don't quote me on this but I am guessing "Grand Master Division" for BCAPL are for the players who play top professional speed on 7 ft table.

In life there are always someone who feel they received the short end of stick, no matter how perfect the system it maybe. Try to make 7000 pool players happy... not to count their friends and family...

Every year is a learning experience with new delima. But if you asked me, BCAPL are one of the good people in the industry who really care about players and this sport.

S.
 
Just to clarify...

Liz Ford who is rated a Master level, finished her WPBA 2008 season ranked 49... Her and her partner won the Master Scotch double.


Just to clarify, I was rated a Grand Master after a 3rd place Masters finish in 2002. I ended 2008 ranked #33, one outside of the top 32 who were excluded from competing in Scotch Doubles, Team and Masters Singles events.

-Liz
 
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sunny,

I don't disagree with any one thing you say. I have no problem playing top players on the bar box. I actually feel I have an advantage. But you are not me. There are a lot of people out there who are true amatuers. They come to Vegas in May expecting to have fun. Maybe win a few dollars playing the game they love. The BCAPL's job along with the other major sanctioning bodies is to give them an experience. Make the trip a worthwhile, fun experience so they will not only return, but continue to play in the weekly league(s).

That is why each organization has someone who rates players ability and decides what events they may play in. There are so many better than good young players it is hard to limit their entries. The Players division of the BCAPL is a direct result of an e-mail I sent to Mark Griffin after he took over the BCA's pool league operations. I know each sanctioning body tries to keep the known professionals out. It's deciding who is a professional that keeps the door open. There is no current definition. Mine is very simple. If you make your living playing pool either through the tournament trail or travelling around the country hiding behind thick glasses, "liquor" breath or an accent you are a professional pool player, period!

I agree the BCAPL tries to do a good job. Better than the others. They however are an American based organization trying to offer a level playing field to the rest of the world. Sometimes the rest of the world bites them and us. In the end, all the sanctioning bodies are businesses not hobbiests. They exist to make a profit. Hopefully they will make the game of pool better with the profits earned. I agree the BCAPL is the best at providing that experience.

Lyn
 
lizford said:
Liz Ford who is rated a Master level, finished her WPBA 2008 season ranked 49... Her and her partner won the Master Scotch double.


Just to clarify, I was rated a Grand Master after a 3rd place Masters finish in 2002. I ended 2008 ranked #33, one outside of the top 32 who were excluded from competing in Scotch Doubles, Team and Masters Singles events.

-Liz
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Liz,

My apology. I guess I didn't read the WPBA chart right. I thought I saw 49 as your rank on that STAT chart on WPBA. :sorry:

By the way, congrats on winning the Master Scotch:thumbup:

S.
 
tksix said:
Hey QueenB....watched you girls play a little on Saturday and was very impressed. Everyone on your team was very pretty!! Your play was extremely solid, and the demeanor of each one you was very professional. Definitely a great shot in the arm for our beloved sport!! Love beautiful women who know how to play!!

As for the BCA.................Grand Masters, Masters, Open player status. YIKES!!!!!!!!!

Pro players playing in the Grand Master level......I totally understand. I think that is right on target.

Masters being dropped into the open................I completely disagree. There has to be 200 or so stone cold Masters in the open, and another 50-60 known ability players who should be playing Masters. I think once a Master always a Master. Never understood guys/gals who wanted to get dropped.

The open team thing...............well how many of the Mixed open teams had more than one Master (in hiding) on them? The winning team had 1 Grand Master / 3 definite Masters (2 were dropped this year) / and 1 border-line Master. Of course there "STATUS" was 1 grand and 4 open players....................but we all have google!!!!! and if you know the players, you know there skill level.

Not sure what is right or wrong. You need a strong team to win, just think the system needs a little looking into!!!

Mike
Click to expand...
I played most of my team matches alongside of a MASTER Colorado team,we were on top draw,they were on bottom in the OPEN division,some of the scores i saw were 13-0,13-1,13-2,i am a VNEA master,due to players of mine missing we had 2 open players,i b player and a lady whos a open lady,we finished 97 to 128,i was very happy with that,all matches went at least 23 games,im pretty sure some of the teams getting crushed in an open division by strong master teams with grand masters and pros didnt know they travelled to vegas to have absolutely no chance to even be competetive.I dont know what the answer is but they should realize there is no division lower then open so where do all the b and c players play
 
sunnyday said:
Lyn,

Liz Ford who is rated a Master level, finished her WPBA 2008 season ranked 49... Her and her partner won the Master Scotch double.

Not to take anything away from Professional Players - general, but how often do you think Pro Players play 8 ball on bar tables? Do you think because they compete professionally all the time playing 9 balls on 9 ft table, they should convert to 8 ball on 7 ft with ease? Anyone who think this way doesn't really know pool that well.

I asked Dennis Orcollo who was at BCAPL national competing in World Masters and Predator 10 ball why he didn't compete in BCAPL Grand Master's Single since it was open to professional players. He replied by saying it was too difficult to adjust back and forth from 7 to 9 foot back and forth.

There are some Professional Players play exceptional Bar Table pool and many of these players have played in "Amateur Leagues" for years... Like SHANE VAN BOENING, (by the way Chris's boyfriend) and many others.

There are many bar table specialists that Professional Players dodge matching up on the Bar Table. So... where do these players fit in? They can beat Pros on 7 ft table but not really pro players...

I maybe over stepping my boundaries and be crucified for this because, I don't have the facts... I don't write the rules. Don't assume because I may know certain people that my opinion as fact. Don't quote me on this but I am guessing "Grand Master Division" for BCAPL are for the players who play top professional speed on 7 ft table.

In life there are always someone who feel they received the short end of stick, no matter how perfect the system it maybe. Try to make 7000 pool players happy... not to count their friends and family...

Every year is a learning experience with new delima. But if you asked me, BCAPL are one of the good people in the industry who really care about players and this sport.

S.
Click to expand...
I watched Dennis Orcolla play in grand masters,on b side he lost 7-5 to Dan Louie,cant remember what happened on a side,he did not get balls off the break
 
almer said:
I watched Dennis Orcolla play in grand masters,on b side he lost 7-5 to Dan Louie,cant remember what happened on a side,he did not get balls off the break
Click to expand...

Wow, he must have changed his mind at last minute. Because I did have that conversation with him during BCAPL Nationals.

I see SVB handed him his first loss and Dan Louie took him out. It doesn't look like he cashed either...

S.
 
I did a little research -

There were 43 players in Grand Master Singles.
Only 13 of these players participated in another BCAPL event.
30 Pros or almost 70% of the field were non participants in any other event.

Out of the 13 players that participated in another BCAPL event, only 3 played in the Master Team event while 8 played in the Open Team event.

With these numbers, I say that you have a Grand Master event for those that are not involved in any other BCAPL event.
 
Hello everyone --

Just needed to pop in and say a quick congratulations to Cristina for taking down the whole thing in the Open Singles! That is no easy thing to do and she did it in true champ form -- undefeated!!

And of course, Liz and Mark for taking down the Master Scotch Doubles! Woohoo!

Gina Kim Lipsky also had an impressive 3rd place finish in the Women's Masters and her Master's Women's team NY Dolls also came in 3rd place!

And of course, I need to congratulate my Kiss of Death girls (Queen B, Olga, Emily, Michele, & Ally) and everyone that came out to support us for the finals!! It felt so good! :)


http://gailglazebrook.wordpress.com/
 
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