The "Z" kick

Aaron_S

Aaron_S

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Anybody have any good tips or systems for measuring out these kicks. They come up fairly often, and despite being a fairly solid kicker myself, more often than not I hit them embarrassingly bad. This is an example of a situation I'm referring to.

Thanks,
Aaron
 
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Well I couldn't see your wei table, I would recommend taking a screenshot of it and posting that in the future.

I am guessing you are talking about the two rail kick shot that Efren is so good at. The mistake most people make is misjudging the way the cb will come off the second rail. Any spin on the cb is reversed when it hits a rail.

I have practiced this shot (center ball hit) but I have not came up with a good system. Hopefully someone on here can comment that knows more about it than me.
 
Cdryden said:
Well I couldn't see your wei table, I would recommend taking a screenshot of it and posting that in the future.

I am guessing you are talking about the two rail kick shot that Efren is so good at. The mistake most people make is misjudging the way the cb will come off the second rail. Any spin on the cb is reversed when it hits a rail.

I have practiced this shot (center ball hit) but I have not came up with a good system. Hopefully someone on here can comment that knows more about it than me.
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Yeah that's the one. Not sure why WEI isn't working - been troublesome for a while now for me.

I have played with the shot quite a bit myself. It's easy enough to determine the geometry to make the cueball go where you want, but there doesn't seem to be a spin/speed combo that will make it follow the geometric line - or, in other words, to make it come off of the second rail more predictably.

Aaron
 
Aaron_S said:
Yeah that's the one. Not sure why WEI isn't working - been troublesome for a while now for me.

I have played with the shot quite a bit myself. It's easy enough to determine the geometry to make the cueball go where you want, but there doesn't seem to be a spin/speed combo that will make it follow the geometric line - or, in other words, to make it come off of the second rail more predictably.

Aaron
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I think it becomes difficult to predict because every time the cb hits a rail it reverses english, add to it the the fact that the cb's speed and the amount of spin being reduced by the friction of the cloth and rails and it becomes a crap shoot. (at least for me)

Take Erics advice and check out the dvd.
 
Cdryden said:
I think it becomes difficult to predict because every time the cb hits a rail it reverses english, add to it the the fact that the cb's speed and the amount of spin being reduced by the friction of the cloth and rails and it becomes a crap shoot. (at least for me)

Take Erics advice and check out the dvd.
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Adding to that- every time you hit a rail your speed and angle will be slightly different. Once you hit the second rail this is compounded. So unless you place the cueball in exactly the same spot and use exactly the same speed and contact the rail at exactly the same spot and contact exactly the same part of the cueball your end path after the second rail will be different.

So systems may work and all but being as billiard shots have so many variations if your not in deadstroke and perfectly zoned in they will appear to not work for you.

That and then there's the fact that every rail on every pool table react slightly differently.

If your a pro and you only play on diamond tables with new rails and new cloth everyday it might be possible to know exactly what angle the ball is going to come out.

Just use a masse its simpler:)
 
Eric. said:
There is a very reliable system by Jimmy Reid. It's a lil hard for me to describe, you might be better off buying his DVD:

http://freepoollessons.com/site/category/instructional-dvds/

It's on his "Almost All I Know" DVD under 2 rail kicks. There is a good system for the "side rail to side rail kick".

The DVD's are well worth the money and the other additional info is the bonus.


Eric
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I second that; great dvds and he has got it figured out to a tee.
 
Assuming you can hit one-rail kicks OK, finding the second rail target is the key. Unfortunately, the second rail target varies a lot with cloth/ball conditions and kick angle (not to mention initial CB spin) because the CB picks up "running" spin from the first rail, which becomes "braking" spin on the second rail, which shortens the second rebound more or less depending on those variables.

I've heard suggestions for Z banks like "expect the second rail to rebound 1/3 shorter than the first", but I think the variables make such rules of thumb very approximate. I don't know of any reliable method other than shooting lots of carefully measured shots with various angles/speeds/conditions to get a feel for it.

pj
chgo
 
I have tried by trial and error. Still trying and erring.

What is happening when off the second long rail, the ob 'releases' and the rebound angle 'opens' rather than narrow as would be expected with the 'reverse' going into the second rail?

A moderate speed hit sometimes creates this 'release'.

Has the 'reverse' worn off by the time the ob gets to the 2nd rail, becoming more a natural rolling ball? and the rebounding in a more natural angle?

The 'boingy-ness' of the 2nd rail seems to factor large into that 2nd rail rebound.

I don't get it. My failed attempts experience just makes Efrens 'Z" shot that much more incredible.





Duh-nevermind. OP asking about 2 rail 'Z' kick/my response re 'Z' bank
 
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HERE is a youtube video by Jimmy Reid on his "z" shot diamond system. Sad to say that I didn't get much from watching (I just couldn't follow it). :o
 
I just went out and shot this a few times, so here is what I found on my table with my stroke (today). Cue ball coming out of the corner - through 2 3/4 diamonds using center ball 1/2 tip high gives me the opposite corner. Add 1 tip right and 1/2 high I get the center diamond on the end rail.
Like others have said, it is stroke and table dependent, but with a base line you should be able to make the adjustments.
Mark
 
Eric. said:
There is a very reliable system by Jimmy Reid. It's a lil hard for me to describe, you might be better off buying his DVD:

http://freepoollessons.com/site/category/instructional-dvds/

It's on his "Almost All I Know" DVD under 2 rail kicks. There is a good system for the "side rail to side rail kick".

The DVD's are well worth the money and the other additional info is the bonus.


Eric
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I like Jimmy`s system because it is a dead ball system and is easy to learn. Don`t expect this to be 100% maybe 50%. This is a difficult shot that is effected by speed.
 
Seneca Steve said:
I like Jimmy`s system because it is a dead ball system and is easy to learn. Don`t expect this to be 100% maybe 50%. This is a difficult shot that is effected by speed.
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Actually, per Jimmy's DVD, it is not a dead ball system. He says to use some running english...

I find this system fairly reliable for kicks wher the CB has to hit the first rail at a smaller angle, where it doesnt pick up a lot of running english due to the rail and steep angle, if that makes sense. When I say fairly reliable, I'd say somewhere in the 80% range.


Eric
 
pool101 said:
I just went out and shot this a few times, so here is what I found on my table with my stroke (today). Cue ball coming out of the corner - through 2 3/4 diamonds using center ball 1/2 tip high gives me the opposite corner. Add 1 tip right and 1/2 high I get the center diamond on the end rail.
Like others have said, it is stroke and table dependent, but with a base line you should be able to make the adjustments.
Mark
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what your referencing too really has no bearing on a Z kick! Your shot is 3 adjoining rails and a Z kick is opposite rails
 
theeviltwin69 said:
what your referencing too really has no bearing on a Z kick! Your shot is 3 adjoining rails and a Z kick is opposite rails
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Corner to 2 3/4 diamonds yeilds approx 5 1/2 diamonds, ball then flattens off of second rail to corner, how is that not a Z kick?
 
pool101 said:
Corner to 2 3/4 diamonds yeilds approx 5 1/2 diamonds, ball then flattens off of second rail to corner, how is that not a Z kick?
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The Z kick they are referring too is a cross table two rail kick,No adjoining rails!That's the difference,at least that's how I read it.
 
z kick.jpg
This was quick but this is what I was saying, sorry for the confusion.
 
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The key to making good Z kicks is knowing how much top or bottom english you have on the cue ball...

Try it with both and you will see how great a difference the two make. Now for consistancy use the same english for all Z kicks, unless you need to force the different angle.
 
Lots of interesting info so far. Thanks everybody.

Rich, I got the same error when I went to the site. Not sure what is up with that.

On my GCII, "Z" kicking two rails corner to corner requires aiming about 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 diamonds up on the first rail. It is a dead ball kick when aiming there, but it is hard to find a way to adjust for different ball locations. I will watch the Jimmy Reid vid and report back if something clicks for me.

Aaron
 
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