Then vs. Now (One More Thread)
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WobblyStroke
Well-known member
Think ur omission of Jordan makes for a winnable debate
But ur point is spot on.tomatoshooter
Well-known member
Simonis' website says that 860 was developed to allow players to control the cueball when playing 9 ball. I haven't heard that specifically linked to TV but the concept is there.
Mr Wobbly
You're post triggered something that I hadn't quite put together and it's the combination of elite technique combined with flowing, natural looking play. That's certainly part of what stands out to me about a handful of today's elites. The ones I mentioned previously -- SVB, Shaw, Filler, Gorst, along with some Filipinos like Orcullo and Gomez, they all play with both and make it look so easy in the process. (Guess I've never considered SVB's technique as elite). Earl was really the only player from the previous generation that was close to playing with both of those traits. Although Earl's technique has been a constant changing never ending journey. McCready had one but not the other. I remember a more flowing Archer but that was fleeting and he ended up as the lint picking, slower, methodical player later on.
So there have been players that had one or the other in the past and even today but you didn't really see both on display too often. Today you have players like Kaci and Morra who have the technique but don't have the flowing play like you mentioned. Styer is sort following along that path.
I know Gorst isn't a fast player, but there's a freedom in his play that only ultra confident players possess so I include him here. Filler jumps out at me the most in this department. Even with the demands of the equipment so high, and the stage being so large at times like at the Mosconi Cup, the guy just plays totally free.
dquarasr
Registered
Of course. Jordan.Think ur omission of Jordan makes for a winnable debate
Here we agree. What a great time to be a pool fan. Maybe I can make it to Derby to see it up close this year.
Although I know this has been mentioned in the past, I tend to forget Buddy's best days were in the 70s. His last US Open win tends to lead me astray.
You put words in my mouth here. I mentioned JS making it look like "every top pro" could run 1000. Of course I was being a bit facetious but I do believe the top 10-20 pros could all run 500+ on that Legends table if given a reasonable amount of time. Chinakhov barely got to shoot long enough to get loose.
The Legends table is an entirely different animal than the Diamonds used at Derby so that comparison isn't worthwhile in my book.
Okay this is sort of where this topic runs into trouble because people consistently say X is way better than Y when it comes to Z. Often times these things cannot be tested, but we can sort of extrapolate data from specific events that we are proven wrong about. One such example is one-pocket. Back when Orcullo was first jumping into playing one-pocket, many were saying he didn't stand a chance due to his lack of knowledge. Fast forward just a few months later and the guy is playing some of best one pocket ever seen on this globe. So while I agree with you about Varner and Pagulayan's conceptual ability, I also recognize that these are somewhat vague concepts that are difficult to measure. But like one-pocket, if you test the world's elite players when it comes to any skill, the cream tends to rise to the top.
Also, when it comes to conceptualization both Efren and Pagulayan would sometimes get themselves into trouble. I'm speaking specifically about one-pocket, as both are so ridiculously creative that they would sometimes talk themselves in to shooting low probability shots just because they alone were capable of doing so. So conceptualization is a tough to pin down skill.
I dunno. In that world the game was huge, drawing audiences in the thousands, and featuring on the front pages of newspaper sports pages. I think that there were tons of excellent players, drawn by the size of the game, but you are almost right about one thing. You said there were just a handful of players at his level, but the truth is there was no one at his level. I don't think many people have researched his record and accomplishment in depth, say as recorded in his book Willie's Game. The dominance he achieved in the long multi-city challenge matches and round robin events is startling.
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pagaspoling
Member
Efren brought creativity.
Ralf brought precision and professionalism.
Earl brought power and determination.
This for me is the three players who made pool what it is today. Of course they built their game on previous players but to me (born 1990) these three players stand out. Efren changed how the game is played, every player today kicks well and know two way shots and other creative solutions. Ralf made pool players all around professionals, basically the Tiger of pool, he didn't leave a stone unturned in his quest for wins. I'm very surprised Ralf isn't mentioned more in this thread, he was the ultimate professional and won so much in the 90s and 00s. Earl is just the power player everybody wants to be, when he was on nobody had a chance.
Modern Efrens:
Maybe Alex
Modern Ralfs:
Albin, Kaci, Fedor, Kazakis.....
Modern Earl:
SVB, Filler, Shaw, Zielinski
I like this a lot. I thought a lot about Ralf Souquet. I've always admired his game and professionalism. There have been a lot of great European players in past 20-30 years and Ralf is definitely up there with the best of them. Was he ever really in the conversation for the best player in the world though? It's my view that the growth of the first-class European pool player was culminated in Darren Appleton's rise to the top. I realize it's really not fair to just lump all the Europeans together, but from a US perspective this is how I see it. For a while there, Darren was arguably the best in the world. This sort of sealed the deal for me on Europe's ascendance to the top of the pool world.
I think your other comparisons are great except for maybe Fedor. I think he's more of a combination of many players and I think he has a serious chance to go down as the greatest rotation player ever!
Again different worlds. Mosconi was great, arguably the greatest ever (when compared to his peers) but the game has changed so dramatically. So much so, that we might as well compare Mosconi to snooker or carom players, as that would be nearly as valid. When we talk about pool now -- we are talking mainly about rotation games, followed by 8 ball, then one-pocket, then bar table pool. For better or worse 14.1 is an afterthought. With these other games, it's just not feasible to have tournaments designed where the best player in the world can dominant. So today's players can't really be compared to Mosconi and I'm not sure they even should be.
For me, it was Oliver Ortmann, Ralf Souquet and Niels Feijen. Honorable mention to Thorsten Hohmann. All but one are in the HoF, and the one should have been in theee years ago.
Funny watching Berg's USBTC matches on YT and the complete frustration of the commentators.
Good show.
I'm glad you mentioned Buddy, as in his prime I don't think there was anyone better for the cash. Back in the early 70's when Rempe was winning all the tournaments, Buddy played him a 10 game freezeout at Jack 'n' Jill in Shirlington, and when Buddy collected the cash after 12 games, the table time was 55 cents.
Or watching an Ingmar Bergman movie.
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
The 2 are really hard to separate, esp at the top where there is usually a blending. Guys either start off wild and loose and natural and then learn over time to reign that in and keep it on line by introducing physical limitations (mechanical fundamentals). OR they start out with rigid mechanics that put big constraints on ROM, funneling all movement down to one plane and over their 1000s of hours of play they learned to become more and more efficient with their movement and develop some flow.
So one group starts wild and adds mechanical efficiency by limiting moving parts, while the other starts locked down and increase their efficiency by expending less energy by applying force at the right times. The effect for both is about the same....either great flow with good mechanics and fundamentals, or great mechanics and fundamentals with good flow.
I agree with Cornerman. Prime Sigel was the best shot maker on the Tour period. And that includes Earl and Parica-another great player who never seems to get his due. But like Efren and Earl and every great player, he seemed to develop the yips and movement as he aged.
Agree. But Chamberlain was the only player who forced rule changes because of his dominance. But Russell? No one won more period. He won the NCAA his last two years, then an Olympic Gold then 11 out of 13 NBA Championships. He lost one of those to the Hawks because he was injured. And the other one to the 1967 76ers maybe the best team ever before the Jordan Bulls. FYI - he got his revenge the following year. Total team player and competitor.
The NCAA banned dunking because of Kareem.
I thought this thread was going to be about this teenage book
